Was a new transformation really necessary for Goku?

[wolflonnie]

Well... necessary, not really. I personally would have preferred if UI wasn't a transformation, and didn't have black hairs.
However, the main issue is that eliminating the final threat without anything flashy or spectacular... would have been anticlimatic. Rule of cool exists because of this very reason.

[sintzu]

eliminating the final threat without anything flashy or spectacular... would have been anticlimatic. Rule of cool exists because of this very reason.

Zeno doesn't think so as he got rid of Zamasu with neither.

[PsionicWarrior]

It was not necessary but TBH we were a bit past that, why not and guess it's one more toy to sell lol

[wolflonnie]

eliminating the final threat without anything flashy or spectacular... would have been anticlimatic. Rule of cool exists because of this very reason.

Zeno doesn't think so as he got rid of Zamasu with neither.

That might be another reason of why Goku obtained another transformation. The weird ending might work one time, but two times, it'll alienate the viewers.

[Lionel]

It's interesting how subverted expectations can be made applicable to the outcome of a tournament but not the execution of its premiere foe's loss. Could there be a limit to the amount of times that a newfangled transformation is packaged and sold before they become uninspiring and bland? Surely the core fandom in Japan has their limitations for such devices.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

It's interesting how subverted expectations can be made applicable to the outcome of a tournament but not the execution of its premiere foe's loss. Could there be a limit to the amount of times that a newfangled transformation is packaged and sold before they become uninspiring and bland? Surely the core fandom in Japan has their limitations for such devices.

If there is a limitation, I'm almost positive they're nowhere near close to it.

Japan CODIFIED the idea of transforming protagonists.

[Lionel]

It's interesting how subverted expectations can be made applicable to the outcome of a tournament but not the execution of its premiere foe's loss. Could there be a limit to the amount of times that a newfangled transformation is packaged and sold before they become uninspiring and bland? Surely the core fandom in Japan has their limitations for such devices.

If there is a limitation, I'm almost positive they're nowhere near close to it.

Japan CODIFIED the idea of transforming protagonists.

Of course. I guess the unending cyclicity of it all doesn't really bother them like it does some of the western fans. Still, if the relatively unorthodox mechanics of Ultra Instinct is anything to go by, Toei and Toriyama must have felt compelled in some way to change up the elements of the transformation; however superficial it may be.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

It's interesting how subverted expectations can be made applicable to the outcome of a tournament but not the execution of its premiere foe's loss. Could there be a limit to the amount of times that a newfangled transformation is packaged and sold before they become uninspiring and bland? Surely the core fandom in Japan has their limitations for such devices.

If there is a limitation, I'm almost positive they're nowhere near close to it.

Japan CODIFIED the idea of transforming protagonists.

SSGSS' high popularity for 3 years shows they're nowhere near it a form many people here call a "lazy recolour" and UI is already building tremendous hype as we speak.

[darzap]

They made it necessary by creating such a ridiculous power gap between Goku and Jiren. If they had taken a hint from the original tournaments they would have known how to create believable tension without resorting to that.

The tournaments back in Dragon Ball always had a final enemy that was not too far beyond Goku. Muten Roshi was somewhat stronger than Goku, but that Great Ape form took him by surprise and the Ki he had to spent to blow up the moon drew so much power from him, that it almost closed the gap. Goku vs. Tien was quite an even fight, as was Goku vs. Piccolo. All of those characters had a sensible backstory that lead up to this moment and their relative power made sense. Also, they are sensible opponents: the own master (surpassing one's teacher is an established thing), the top student of the rival school and the reincarnated and young version of the last opponent and greatest threat to earth at the end of the show.

They could have made Toppo the final enemy of the tournament and it would have made perfect sense. Goku and Vegeta are the top fighters and (somewhat apprehensive, because they don't really go out to promote justice) heroes of their universe, they are trained by Whis and working towards closing the gap to Beerus. Toppo would have been the perfect counterpart, the top hero of his universe (if there was no Jiren), himself training to become GoD (a little further on this road, because he was actually named a candidate), he was established at the start of the arc, defeating him would be kind of a graduation moment, because he would then be considered in the realm of the GoD (and Vegeta with him, if they would have gone for a team win, which would have had foreshadowing as well, with Whis saying that they should work together) and the next stop would have been Beerus, the guy who started the series. Had he defeated him with Super Instinct Omen, we could have a clear training goal for the future.

But that would just have made too much sense, so instead, we get a silent, generic superstrong fighter, who is a total anomaly in the established order (orders of magnitude beyond any mortal and stronger than a GoD without being a GoD-candidate), who is strong because he is strong (I'm sorry, he is on a quest to avenge his loved ones... never heard that one before). If Goku defeats him, where does that leave us? Did he surpass Beerus? That whole series fans were wondering, how far he was along on his quest to close that gap and now he just skips ahead.

That whole "orders of magnitude stronger" thing really started with Freeza, in my opinion. Goku was at >8.000 or >32.000 (with Kaioken) at the end of the previous arc and Frieza was up in the millions with his final form (around the relative difference between the farmer with a shotgun and Raditz). This is also the arc in which we've lost natural power progression and went into the territory of Zen-Kais and 50x-powerup SSJ-transformations. In the Cell Saga, we solved the problem by mastering the Super Saiyan-form and to make that believable, we got the RoSaT. In Buu Arc, we got fusions to bridge giant gaps of power, for Beerus we've gotten a ritual out of nowhere (even Vegeta, the go-to Saiyajin-exposition provider had no idea), for Freezas resurrection we've had a laudable exception of having an opponent at a similar level of power, in the next Arc (the first tournament arc in a long time), we had a final enemy that did not require a giant leap in power (thankfully, they used something established to give Goku what he needed to close the gap here). It made sense, that he was able to bridge the gap in the span of a tournament. The Zamasu-Arc was all over the place with powerscaling and improvements, so I won't even go into that.

Now we have something new: An enemy that is orders of magnitude stronger and a setting that gives little room for improvement, so what are Toeis solutions? Almost-Instant regeneration and improvement (no more Frieza Empire Healing Tanks, Dende or Senzu beans necessary to exploit Senkai-boosts), almost instant mastery of forms (no more RoSaT-training necessary to accomplish that in the span of a week, we just do it in a span of minutes without any training at all). This is no longer Deus Ex Machina, this is Deus Ex Thin Air. On the other hand, his new form is super, super, super sparkly and Zeno deems it super, super, super amazing, so whatever, it's cool I guess.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

I don't know why fans are so obsessed with training and time so much. Training isn't the real thing. Like Vegeta said before U6 tournament, training is one thing but actually competing in a tournament will help him hone himself so much more.

The ToP has been "training" for Goku, it's way more itense then any lame training he'll do with Kaio or Whis or in the RoSaT the dude literally had a Spirit Bomb back fire into him he's had all sorts of opponents fight him. Time is irrelevant it's the quality that matters. So far the ToP served that.

But this was nothing though right compared to the amazing and itense training he can do elsewhere?

[darzap]

I don't know why fans are so obsessed with training and time so much. Training isn't the real thing. Like Vegeta said before U6 tournament, training is one thing but actually competing in a tournament will help him hone himself so much more.

The ToP has been "training" for Goku, it's way more itense then any lame training he'll do with Kaio, or Whis or in the RoSaT the dude literally had a Spirit Bomb back fire into him he's had all sorts of opponents fight him. Time is irrelevant it's the quality that matters. So far the ToP served that.

But this was nothing though right compared to the amazing and itense training he can do elsewhere?

You know time, that thing along which events progress in some causal relation to each, so it makes sense to reason about them and speculating about future stuff? Since you're not much into time, I don't know how much you're into causality, which is that thing that makes reasoning and discussing past and potential future events in the series an exercise that is not inherently futile. Also, time has something to do with tension, you might have noticed this pattern in dramatic stories before, but they often involve someone having to solve a problem until some timer runs out... Like Goku getting stronger in time for the Tenkaichi Budokai or Goku holding off Raditz for five minutes or being ready for the Saiyans in one year and arriving before they slaughter everybody, or ariving on Namek because everybody gets slaughtered, or getting off Namek in five minutes, or getting ready for the android in three years or getting ready for Cell in one week or defeating Buu in 30 minutes or completing that Gohan unlocking in due time or getting back to earth before Freeza kills everybody or coming up with a plan and improving sufficiently to beat Zamasu and Black in the time that Rage Trunks can hold them off or getting all fighters ready for the ToP in due time... If all of that getting ready and getting stronger and mastering something can be done in <48 minutes, what is the point?

Also, training is that thing that connects the rewards like improvements to some work to earn said rewards to make people feel more sympathy and happiness when the character actually gets something. It is also associated with the slowly rising tension (some concept from dramaturgy, a big thing in writing stories) in the earlier parts of an arc because we see them actually working towards something and wonder how it will pay off and let them stack off against that incoming threat. Training was kind of a recurring thing throughout Dragon Ball with Roshi, Korin, Popo, Kami, Kaio-Sama, father & son, in the afterlife, Whis... I mean, it makes sense that training is a big thing in a story about fighting skills and physical power, right? The usual understanding of improvement is that some stimulus is created and the body adapts to it, so of course, fighting is training as well and we saw that during the Freeza Arc, but we still followed the rule, that we need some recovery after the stimulus. And again, if there are no principles in place, there is no point in reasoning about something. Why should I wonder which way they will go from some set of conceivable ways, if anything is conceivable and the story just progresses randomly.
If that is no longer a thing, Goku can just wait for any enemy to arrive and fight him, improving whenever he is about to lose, until he has surpassed him in a matter of minutes. No training necessary. Should we feel tension, when somebody who is ~100 times stronger than our hero just happens to be dropped right in front of him? If we go by the precedent set by the ToP, I don't think we should

[ZenkaiBoosts]

I don't know why fans are so obsessed with training and time so much. Training isn't the real thing. Like Vegeta said before U6 tournament, training is one thing but actually competing in a tournament will help him hone himself so much more.

The ToP has been "training" for Goku, it's way more itense then any lame training he'll do with Kaio or Whis or in the RoSaT the dude literally had a Spirit Bomb back fire into him he's had all sorts of opponents fight him. Time is irrelevant it's the quality that matters. So far the ToP served that.

But this was nothing though right compared to the amazing and itense training he can do elsewhere?

Another great post my brother: )

Take it from Conor McGregor and Floyd Mayweather themselfes

"It doesnt matter how much you train. It's about training smarter"

"Train smarter, not harder"

And regardless, training can only help you stay sharp. Or use training to learn/stay in shape etc. Even sparring can't fully prepare you for a fight

At the end of the day, there's no subsititue for a live fight. Nothing can quite prepare you for a fight until you fight and know what's it's like to fight

For example, some guys in the gym are amazing in the gym. Yet crumble under the bright lights when it's time to actually fight

Some look great on the pads yet can't fight against a live opponent

The people obsessed with training and training time don't really understand actual fighting.

Goku is one of the few who loves to fight and is constantly growing and learning in live fights/battles. Pushing himself to the max in battle and over coming in battle. Nothing beats that or subsititues for that.

Look to how Goku is simply just even sparring everyone he can to widen his horizons and learn from everything and everyone etc

Goku is like the embodiment of Bruce Lee. Goku is a true martial arts master

And of course everything you said was spot on.

Like you said, Goku was at risk of being killed by his own freaking spirit bomb..That's brutal

No training could have ever put Goku in a situation like that

It was fight or flight

It took every ounce of Goku's soul and will to fight back.

That internal struggle from within Goku to resist death via his own attack is what took Goku to another level and awakened Omen

I'm going to he honest. This is something I noticed in my personal experiences. Thats all. I am not generalizing. This is my anecdotal. I noticed, for me, the whole obsession with training and time didn't really start to become a big thing until Vegeta fans would use that excuse/justification to try and argue for why Vegeta should've been stronger then Goku.

Or maybe it's always been like that.. but either way, it lacks all understanding of actual fighting and how combat sports has alwsys worked etc

Great post my brother: )

[darzap]

Take it from Conor McGregor and Floyd Mayweather themselfes

"It doesnt matter how much you train. It's about training smarter"

"Train smarter, not harder"
...

Goku is like the embodiment of Bruce Lee. Goku is a true martial arts master

Yeah, that's totally not a misinterpretation, I absolutely remember Bruce Lee saying that training is not so important, you just train a little and then sign right up to the world championship and just close the remaining gap while you're actually fighting. Also I'm quite that McGregor and Mayweather train quite regularly (btw. training smarter does not imply that you can improve significantly without training) and don't expect to close a gigantic gap in skill and strength in a fight itself.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Take it from Conor McGregor and Floyd Mayweather themselfes

"It doesnt matter how much you train. It's about training smarter"

"Train smarter, not harder"
...

Goku is like the embodiment of Bruce Lee. Goku is a true martial arts master

Yeah, that's totally not a misinterpretation, I absolutely remember Bruce Lee saying that training is not so important, you just train a little and then sign right up to the world championship and just close the remaining gap while you're actually fighting. Also I'm quite that McGregor and Mayweather train quite regularly (btw. training smarter does not imply that you can improve significantly without training) and don't expect to close a gigantic gap in skill and strength in a fight itself.

Those guys also don't make use of Ki to fly around and shoot balls of energy, nor are they biological freaks of nature that seem built to get stronger, nor are they in a shonen anime where pulling out power from seemingly nowhere is the norm.

Time is irrelevant when these guys move faster than sound and light; they have all the time in the world at the speeds they fight/train.

[emperior]

I don't know why fans are so obsessed with training and time so much. Training isn't the real thing. Like Vegeta said before U6 tournament, training is one thing but actually competing in a tournament will help him hone himself so much more.

The ToP has been "training" for Goku, it's way more itense then any lame training he'll do with Kaio or Whis or in the RoSaT the dude literally had a Spirit Bomb back fire into him he's had all sorts of opponents fight him. Time is irrelevant it's the quality that matters. So far the ToP served that.

But this was nothing though right compared to the amazing and itense training he can do elsewhere?

I agree, I actually like how this time around Saiyans finally truly displayed their limit-surpassing abilities and it totally makes sense they did so in a Battle Royale type of tournament. Goku has been fighting a shit ton of good fighters in the ToP, while he usually only fights a bunch in the main arcs. Even if it happened randomly, Goku achieving UI in such a tense and stakeful tournament is totally plausible.
We also know for sure that Goku and Vegeta have basically maxed out their physical training, it has been so ever since they trained in the ROSAT during the Androids arc, so it's only logical that after training with Whis to further hone their ki controlling abilities, they go out and seek for death matches which push them to their very limit.

It's not that different from real world martial arts. You can be super-strong, have the best technique and a lot of stamina, but if you have never fought you won't be a good fighter, and sparring can only get you so far before you decide to fight in a serious match where both you and your opponent give your all.

[darzap]

Those guys also don't make use of Ki to fly around and shoot balls of energy, nor are they biological freaks of nature that seem built to get stronger, nor are they in a shonen anime where pulling out power from seemingly nowhere is the norm.

They were mentioned as justification for a principle, I've argued that they aren't.

Time is irrelevant when these guys move faster than sound and light; they have all the time in the world at the speeds they fight/train.

That surely is a valid description of a totally consistent principle within the series, just one tiny inquiry, though:

Why is the RoSaT still a big thing right until this arc, if time is no factor in training? Why has the time they took for training always been a thing in Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z and even Super, that they accomplished most forms (Mastered SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ3, SSB) during extended times of training?
Why are Senzu Beans still a thing right until the last arc if they can recover from total fatigue in a matter of one minute?

Why did this totally consistent with the DB-world principle of time doesn't matter only take effect in these last 48 minutes?

I agree, I actually like how this time around Saiyans finally truly displayed their limit-surpassing abilities and it totally makes sense they did so in a Battle Royale type of tournament. Goku has been fighting a shit ton of good fighters in the ToP, while he usually only fights a bunch in the main arcs. Even if it happened randomly, Goku achieving UI in such a tense and stakeful tournament is totally plausible.
We also know for sure that Goku and Vegeta have basically maxed out their physical training, it has been so ever since they trained in the ROSAT during the Androids arc, so it's only logical that after training with Whis to further hone their ki controlling abilities, they go out and seek for death matches which push them to their very limit.

I don't see anything wrong with creating a new stimulus if the current training started to stagnate. The problem if they adapt to that stimulus in a matter of minutes and break the next limit right afterwards. It's been established since the Namek Saga, that Saiyajins benefit from beatdowns but since then they've always needed some recovery. Also, Goku was pushed to new heights in his fight with Beerus and started to use God Ki, but he didn't unlock SSB right after that, but he started to train with Whis. Training to improve upon the recent breach of a limit was always a thing in Dragon Ball. I also have no issue with UI Omen, my issues comes with Mastered UI following a couple of minutes later.

It's not that different from real world martial arts. You can be super-strong, have the best technique and a lot of stamina, but if you have never fought you won't be a good fighter, and sparring can only get you so far before you decide to fight in a serious match where both you and your opponent give your all.

Nobody says that fighting should be no part in improvement, but your statement totally fails to justify the idea of fighting replacing major aspects of training such as perfecting a new technique, which is always done through repitition and training, nobody perfects a technique during a tournament in real life and they didn't do that in DRagon Ball either until right now in this latest arc.

[PsionicWarrior]

SSGSS' high popularity for 3 years shows they're nowhere near it a form many people here call a "lazy recolour" and UI is already building tremendous hype as we speak.

These 'lazy recolors' are actually a genius way to show power difference, UI is the strongest point of TOP IMO, even if an episode was total garbage for 19 mns, the last 30 secs of UI were still cool to watch, eh......

[Simere]

It's called one way of going about things, and not the way DB has always done things.

You're missing out on potential plots no matter what you do, so that doesn't really mean anything.

DB has never set up so much only to throw it out at the same time. The only thing I can think of is the demon relm being brought up in the Buu arc without anything being done with it but that's nothing compared to what they've done here.

How about when Goku was right away thrust into the highest echelons of Earth's fighters? They could have had him climb through dozens of human martial arts masters before having to awaken ancient evils to challenge him. They could have made a much bigger deal about the Red Ribbon Army; they were the world's strongest military, a terrifying force...rather than Goku casually putting them down in one arc, they could have stretched that out for three or four arcs. How about when it departed the setting of Earth and expanded to the entire universe, only to right away beat the universe's strongest fighter? They could have had him be the strongest of the solar system first, but they didn't even start with the galaxy.

[sintzu]

How about when Goku was right away thrust into the highest echelons of Earth's fighters ? They could have had him climb through dozens of human martial arts masters before having to awaken ancient evils to challenge him. They could have made a much bigger deal about the Red Ribbon Army; they were the world's strongest military, a terrifying force...rather than Goku casually putting them down in one arc, they could have stretched that out for three or four arcs. How about when it departed the setting of Earth and expanded to the entire universe, only to right away beat the universe's strongest fighter? They could have had him be the strongest of the solar system first, but they didn't even start with the galaxy.

You bring up good points which goes back to what I've been saying, why make the same mistakes ? DB at the time was the first of its kind so there wasn't much to compare it to which helped it get away with things but that's not the case anymore.

[Simere]

How about when Goku was right away thrust into the highest echelons of Earth's fighters ? They could have had him climb through dozens of human martial arts masters before having to awaken ancient evils to challenge him. They could have made a much bigger deal about the Red Ribbon Army; they were the world's strongest military, a terrifying force...rather than Goku casually putting them down in one arc, they could have stretched that out for three or four arcs. How about when it departed the setting of Earth and expanded to the entire universe, only to right away beat the universe's strongest fighter? They could have had him be the strongest of the solar system first, but they didn't even start with the galaxy.

You bring up good points which goes back to what I've been saying, why make the same mistakes ? DB at the time was the first of its kind so there wasn't much to compare it to which helped it get away with things but that's not the case anymore.

I don't consider those to be mistakes is the thing. I think the astronomical rise to power is a large part of what made DB great, and I don't think interest in that has changed as much as you think. If it had or ever did, I see more value in ending the story than changing its nature. Because Son Goku is an unbelievable guy, not a guy who makes reasonably incremental gains over an extended period of time.

But just to be clear: I completely understand wanting better worldbuilding. Tolkien was there right alongside Toriyama in shaping my mind. You can find me on forums for other franchises, like Star Wars or Warcraft, arguing about how recklessly they're squandering the potential they have, saying much the same things you are now. I just don't argue it here because I don't think that's what DB is or should be.