The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
Aman
Newbie
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:41 am

The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by Aman » Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:15 am

People talk it up as iconic it is when in reality it isn't even a rivarly. Goku does not consider Vegeta a rival, it's one sided from Vegeta.

Goku isn't the type to stick to one person and has shown throughout every DB series how he jumps from rival to rival while Vegeta has clung to Goku since arriving on earth. It's inferior to every rivalry simply because it is not a rivalry, but it's continued and talked up as Vegeta is a popular character, despite it never really coming off like two characters competing with one another. It's always been Goku unlocking a new power and then Vegeta later achieving it off screen, and then Goku unlocking another power to surpass him again. Rinse and repeat.

That's not a rivalry, a rivalry is competitive where both in it push each other to higher heights. In Super Goku's rivals have been Beerus, Hit and Jiren, in Z it was Frieza and Buu (alluded to wanting to face him again) and DB it was Krillian, Tien and Piccolo i.e. anyone stronger than him he could look to surpass.

Hopefully in the next series they do away it entirely and focus on Goku-Beerus as rivals for a bit longer. It's getting stale seeing the same thing happen between Goku and Vegeta, they've gone as far as they can with it. With Beerus as Goku's main rival they can stretch another series out of it and they can finally take Vegeta out of the role of Goku's 1B and rival turned ally positon which has run its course.

User avatar
Saturnine
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1480
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:45 am

Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by Saturnine » Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:39 am

Well to be fair Goku asked Kuririn to spare Vegeta on Earth precisely because of how much stronger Vegeta was than him at that time, so going by your logic Vegeta was considered a rival by Goku at least that single time.

User avatar
Aman
Newbie
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:41 am

Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by Aman » Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:45 am

Saturnine wrote:Well to be fair Goku asked Kuririn to spare Vegeta on Earth precisely because of how much stronger Vegeta was than him at that time, so going by your logic Vegeta was considered a rival by Goku at least that single time.
Vegeta was a rival, but that was long ago. It was over by Namek tbh.

The story really is played out now, they can't go anywhere with it as Vegeta has admitted that he's inferior and the gap between them is wider than it's ever been

Best to keep it between characters who are on that level rather than have some other asspull to get them level again, only for another ridiculous powerup for Goku to move ahead again. I think refining UI from here is the way to go, this should be the ultimate/final form.

User avatar
sintzu
Banned
Posts: 13583
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:41 pm

Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by sintzu » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:26 am

It should've ended with him admiting Goku being #1 during the Buu arc. What Super should've done is let Vegeta go on his own adventures and fight his own villains while Goku is doing his own thing like what Sasuke did in Naruto Shippuden.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

User avatar
Aman
Newbie
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:41 am

Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by Aman » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:33 am

sintzu wrote:It should've ended with him admiting Goku being #1 during the Buu arc. What Super should've done is let Vegeta go on his own adventures and fight his own villains while Goku is doing his own thing like what Sasuke did in Naruto Shippuden.
That sounds a lot more interesting than what they've done in Super.

DB just can't do rivals right with Goku, for him he's always looking forward for new rivals who are more powerful than him. Once he's surpassed them, he moves on and gives little attention to the ones he's surpassed. Hence why they can't have a classic rival dynamic with Goku.

There's never an instance where his rival is ahead for a meaningful period of time, once Goku's ahead, that's it. It's over, he's moving onto the next rival.

It would work best for both Goku and Vegeta if they just left it, and let them go their own ways. Goku can do a little rivalry with Beerus for a few years, while Vegeta can do his own thing and reach new heights without having to obsess over Goku.

I loved the Naruto-Sasuke rivarly, although it did become bit of a mess in Shippuden, it felt like a proper rivalry with Naruto chasing Sasuke and wanting to be as strong as the gifted prodigy. Obviously both characters were a lot deeper than Goku and Vegeta though and had other reasons to become strong erother than just for the sake of becoming strong.
Last edited by Aman on Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Saturnine
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1480
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:45 am

Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by Saturnine » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:42 am

Aman wrote: The story really is played out now, they can't go anywhere with it as Vegeta has admitted that he's inferior and the gap between them is wider than it's ever been
That was simply about transformation levels though. Vegeta's base power was roughly equal to Goku's at that point in time. Unlike in the Cell Games, where they both had the same transformation level, but Goku was simply stronger.
Best to keep it between characters who are on that level rather than have some other asspull to get them level again, only for another ridiculous powerup for Goku to move ahead again. I think refining UI from here is the way to go, this should be the ultimate/final form.
At this point the relationship between Goku and Vegeta's base powers is pretty vague unfortunately, so all we have to go on are their transformations. UI is not something Goku can achieve just like that (unless he can now that he's mastered it), so in a normal fight Blue Evolution Vegeta utterly mops the floor with Goku, who'd be forced to go KKx20 to compete. So for that level of opponents Vegeta is actually more effective and better prepared, since his form doesn't make his body deteriorate like KKx20 does.

Kataphrut
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1531
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:12 pm

Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by Kataphrut » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:45 am

I actually prefer Goku and Vegeta as bickering bro-sties than I do as rivals. Their rivalry ran it's course, and whenever they try to go back to that, it bores me to tears. It's why Vegeta was so insufferable for like 90% of the Tournament of Power.

As far as actual rivalries introduced by Super go, Hit was a pretty good one. I wish he'd had more screentime overall, his few focused episodes showed a great respectful dynamic with Goku. Episode 90 hinted at a Gohan rivalry which I would have adored if it had followed through into future stories. Goku/Caulifla and Kale was a lot of fun, even though it leaned more toward master/student. Goku/Jiren is a load of old dead dogs; there was potential given they both have the whole "self-made man" thing going on, but it's let down by the fact that Jiren doesn't care to engage with Goku (and he's a taciturn fellow at the best of times), and Goku has to become a blank slate in order to fight him. You might as well be smashing a pair of bricks together.

You know what the best rivalry introduced by Super was though? Goku/Freeza. Say what you will about Resurrection F, but I like that it brought Freeza back to prominence as a villain who can still keep pace with Goku. Before that, he was always wheeled out as a joke, or a measuring stick for the next villain. Now, he's got this really interesting love/hate thing going on with Goku and I kind of want to see more of it.

User avatar
Aman
Newbie
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:41 am

Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by Aman » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:46 am

Saturnine wrote:
Aman wrote: The story really is played out now, they can't go anywhere with it as Vegeta has admitted that he's inferior and the gap between them is wider than it's ever been
That was simply about transformation levels though. Vegeta's base power was roughly equal to Goku's at that point in time. Unlike in the Cell Games, where they both had the same transformation level, but Goku was simply stronger.
Best to keep it between characters who are on that level rather than have some other asspull to get them level again, only for another ridiculous powerup for Goku to move ahead again. I think refining UI from here is the way to go, this should be the ultimate/final form.
At this point the relationship between Goku and Vegeta's base powers is pretty vague unfortunately, so all we have to go on are their transformations. UI is not something Goku can achieve just like that (unless he can now that he's mastered it), so in a normal fight Blue Evolution Vegeta utterly mops the floor with Goku, who'd be forced to go KKx20 to compete. So for that level of opponents Vegeta is actually more effective and better prepared, since his form doesn't make his body deteriorate like KKx20 does.
This is coming from a Vegeta fan lol. I want him to move on, I'm tired of seeing him obsess with Goku because it's gotten him nothing but one humilation after another. Even after he changed and humbled himself, nothing changed. It would be better if he just did his own thing from hereon rather than playing the Robin/part time rival to Goku and fall back into the same Kakarot shtick.

User avatar
Aman
Newbie
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:41 am

Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by Aman » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:50 am

Kataphrut wrote:I actually prefer Goku and Vegeta as bickering bro-sties than I do as rivals. Their rivalry ran it's course, and whenever they try to go back to that, it bores me to tears. It's why Vegeta was so insufferable for like 90% of the Tournament of Power.

As far as actual rivalries introduced by Super go, Hit was a pretty good one. I wish he'd had more screentime overall, his few focused episodes showed a great respectful dynamic with Goku. Episode 90 hinted at a Gohan rivalry which I would have adored if it had followed through into future stories. Goku/Caulifla and Kale was a lot of fun, even though it leaned more toward master/student. Goku/Jiren is a load of old dead dogs; there was potential given they both have the whole "self-made man" thing going on, but it's let down by the fact that Jiren doesn't care to engage with Goku (and he's a taciturn fellow at the best of times), and Goku has to become a blank slate in order to fight him. You might as well be smashing a pair of bricks together.

You know what the best rivalry introduced by Super was though? Goku/Freeza. Say what you will about Resurrection F, but I like that it brought Freeza back to prominence as a villain who can still keep pace with Goku. Before that, he was always wheeled out as a joke, or a measuring stick for the next villain. Now, he's got this really interesting love/hate thing going on with Goku and I kind of want to see more of it.
I never understood the hype, their dynamic is repetitive and stale.

It's not really a rivalry because we know Vegeta is never a threat to truly surpassing Goku. The only one who is stronger than Goku for a meaningful period of time is his next opponent and they're usually useless once Goku has beaten them and moved on to his next challenge.

The problem is Vegeta is probably the last relevant Z fighter they had because they've sidelined everyone else with every new height Goku has reached. But he outclasses Vegeta now too, so that leaves the likes of Jiren, the GoDs, Angels, possibly Hit and any other characters they introduce as side characters. The rest from U7 are fodder or Goku's cheersquad. If they're wanting to phase U7 out and focus on Goku's adventures to other universes, it does make sense.
Last edited by Aman on Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Saturnine
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1480
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:45 am

Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by Saturnine » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:59 am

I'm not really that huge of a Vegeta fan, and I like Goku too. I did like Vegeta more when he didn't care about people (up to the Cell arc basically). I do enjoy seeing him succeed though, for some reason. Still ,facts are facts. I can recognize when Vegeta is stronger than Goku - which most of the time he's not, but there are times when he is.

User avatar
sintzu
Banned
Posts: 13583
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:41 pm

Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by sintzu » Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:10 am

Aman wrote:Obviously both characters were a lot deeper than Goku and Vegeta though and had other reasons to become stronger other than just for the sake of becoming strong.
Super could've changed Goku and Vegeta's characters up and given them actual reasons to get strong other than for the sake of it. They coukd've changed their rivalry up to make it more interesting. They could've let them move on from one another and do their own things. The problem isn't DB or the characters' inability to change, it's the writers wanting to keep everything in a safe space instead of changing things up and taking risks.
Aman wrote:The problem is Vegeta is probably the last relevant Z fighter they had because they've sidelined everyone else with every new height Goku has reached. But he outclasses Vegeta now too, so that leaves the likes of possibly Hit.
Vegeta is currently stronger than Hit and will eventually catch up to Goku but he'll just surpass him again only for vegeta to catch up again, etc. it's just the same thing over and over again.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

TBMx
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 332
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:54 pm

Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by TBMx » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:14 am

In the anime, Goku's archrival is the Alien of the Month. Not Vegeta. Toyotaro goes a long way to correcting this, resulting in a vastly superior product.

User avatar
sintzu
Banned
Posts: 13583
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:41 pm

Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by sintzu » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:27 am

TBMx wrote:Toyotaro goes a long way to correcting this, resulting in a vastly superior product.
Toyotaro has gone a long way in correcting Super as a whole so hopefully when it returns (or if a new anime takes its place) it'll be based off his manga, not whatever generic writer #8 is doing that week.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

Michsi
I Live Here
Posts: 4514
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 5:10 pm

Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by Michsi » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:30 am

Yeah, they went overboard with their relationship, and it being determined by Vegeta's popularity (and popularity of the rival trope in general) is so obvious it makes the whole thing feel unoriginal and just a little bit forced. I wonder how many people are aware that there was virtually no rivalry between them in the original, only an antagonistic attitude from Vegeta towards Goku.
I was hoping that Freeza's inclusion would bring about some interesting interaction between him and Vegeta, but nope, Goku all the way, for both characters.

User avatar
sintzu
Banned
Posts: 13583
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:41 pm

Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by sintzu » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:37 am

Michsi wrote:I was hoping that Freeza's inclusion would bring about some interesting interaction between him and Vegeta, but nope.
I was hoping Freeza would bring anything to justify his return but instead he was just standing around form start to finish doing little to nothing. Hopefully that's another thing the manga changes.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

User avatar
Lord Beerus
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 21048
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:20 pm
Location: A temple on a giant tree
Contact:

Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:05 pm

You know what I think wonderfully sums up the "rivalry" between Goku and Vegeta:

Image

There is no rivalry. There wasn't one to even begin with, in all honesty. To imply there was a rivalry between two parties, one would have to insinuate that all those involved in it carry the same amount determination to outdo the other. And that's never displayed in the original story. And as the OP pointed out, it's a one sided rivalry with Vegeta being the only one who truly take to heart that Goku is one step ahead of him and Goku not really giving a shit 99% of the time. It was arbitrarily brought up again to some degree in Resurrection F, only to be discarded and then dropped again after the events Resurrection F. I'll be the first to admit that I've always thought that Goku and Vegeta used to play a game of one-upping each other, but after re-reading the manga, yeah, there's nothing there.

Michsi
I Live Here
Posts: 4514
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 5:10 pm

Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by Michsi » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:17 pm

sintzu wrote:
Michsi wrote:I was hoping that Freeza's inclusion would bring about some interesting interaction between him and Vegeta, but nope.
I was hoping Freeza would bring anything to justify his return but instead he was just standing around form start to finish doing little to nothing. Hopefully that's another thing the manga changes.
He was a treat at first. A lot of his appeal came from wondering what he was really up to and how he would interact with the rest of them, but once he was finally front and center, he somehow failed to live up to what episode 95 inadvertently promised. Not saying it was all bad, and he could do something really interesting as he is still in the ring ( like use the attention Goku vs. Jiren is getting to sneak up on the Omni King and trap him with in the mafuba ohboydoIwish.... ) but for now I'm a bit disappointed.
Vegeta and Freeza not being forced to team up just the two of them, all the while throwing snide remarks and sneering at each other, is one helluva missed opportunity.

I think the only other character Vegeta had any meaningful moments with is Cabba in that one episode......
Lord Beerus wrote: "Whatever".
:lol:

User avatar
perucho1990
I Live Here
Posts: 2347
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 5:04 pm

Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by perucho1990 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:22 pm

Everyone knows Allucard vs Anderson is the best rivalry in anime/manga :wink:

User avatar
LightBing
I Live Here
Posts: 3508
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:47 am

Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by LightBing » Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:47 pm

It's non-existent in Super anime ever since Goku got Blue Kaioken.
Like others said the manga actually has the rivalry going on and does it justice.

It seems most people here and associating rivalry with the extreme meaning of the word, where obsession and insults start appearing like certain sports clubs. Rivalry is simply competing for the same thing, in this case becoming the strongest. What makes Vegeta a rival is how he's keep up with Goku, something Kuririn, Tenshinhan and Piccolo failed to do.

Goku's current rivalry's in the manga are Vegeta and Hit. Freeza's not, doesn't matter how much Goku wants him to be. He's just an antagonist which isn't the same as a rival.

User avatar
emperior
I Live Here
Posts: 4053
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:52 pm
Location: Dragon World
Contact:

Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by emperior » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:33 pm

I agree, the rivalry is only on Vegeta's part. As always, Goku has never shown any rivalry thing for Vegeta. He never cares when Vegeta surpasses him, he doesn't really consider Vegeta someone to beat in a battle because he knows he can beat him everytime he wants and can surpass him whenever he feels like it. Sure, he respects him, but he never seeks for a true fight with him so it's more like a buddy-thing than a rivalry, at least for Goku. I think in his eyes, Vegeta is just his strong sparring and training partner that always manages to catch up to him and is very useful for that reason. Vegeta also doesn't seem like he wants to have a true battle with Goku yet and is more concerned about keeping up with him, although he always sees Goku as the main guy he has to surpass and that mentality always keeps him from reaching truly higher levels.

I would like to see Vegeta beat a main antagonist that Goku can't beat in the future, so that the rivalry thing could actually make some more sense for once.
悟 “Vincit qui se vincit”

What I consider canonical

Post Reply