The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

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Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by TBMx » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:04 pm

The anime must have changed directors after the Zamasu arc because I noticed up till then Goku and Vegeta were portrayed with similar levels of prominence. But after Zamasu, Vegeta got dropped like hot coal and was seeming deliberately written out of the show. He didn't have a single fight for 32 episodes straight while Goku was heavily featured and I'm still baffled as to why that was, because it persisted all throughout the Tournament of Goku. It became Goku and the rest, instead of Goku and Vegeta then the rest. That ruined the show for me. It was never a better time to be a Vegeta fan but then all of a sudden it all went wrong and we found out what piccolo fans had to put up with.

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Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by Analytical Delusion » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:12 pm

TBMx wrote:The anime must have changed directors after the Zamasu arc because I noticed up till then Goku and Vegeta were portrayed with similar levels of prominence. But after Zamasu, Vegeta got dropped like hot coal and was seeming deliberately written out of the show. He didn't have a single fight for 32 episodes straight while Goku was heavily featured and I'm still baffled as to why that was, because it persisted all throughout the Tournament of Goku. It became Goku and the rest, instead of Goku and Vegeta then the rest. That ruined the show for me. It was never a better time to be a Vegeta fan but then all of a sudden it all went wrong and we knew what piccolo fans had to put up with.
Agreed 100% (though I think even the kaioken created a gap). I'm not the biggest Vegeta fan, but to me Dragon Ball is at its best when he and Goku are trying to one-up one another. They have different goals, but the horserace is fun. Goku fights to fight the strongest guys, and Vegeta recognizes that (see the Buu saga), and has his own reasons to fight (his family and pride, and most recently his promise with Cabba).

Toriyama seems to have the same idea. Though I think he once disliked Vegeta (I believe he had said this in an interview?), between the new Kanzenban ending and his outline for Dragon Ball Online (Goku and Vegeta have their final battle in space at the end of their primes, going out together in a supernova), it seems he views him as a vital character in the series.

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Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:43 pm

I'd just like to add that while I do get a bit of a kick of Goku and Vegeta being on level pegging, it's not mandatory, nor does it have any effect on my enjoyment of the story. But it must also be stressed that for the Goku and Vegeta to some kind of rivalry, the incentive to becoming stronger has to be mutual. A rivalry can't work if it's one sided. And Goku doesn't care if Vegeta is as strong, or stronger than him, 99.9% of the time. So having them on an even keel with regards to power won't matter in the end. It especially won't matter if by the end of any given story arc the gap in strength between the two "rivals" is considerably big. And it's even worse if it's the person who doesn't give a shit about the rivarily is the one who is much stronger than the person who does give a shit about the rivalry. This is why I'm kinda glad that anime dropped the idea that Goku and Vegeta will always been on par with each other and I don't care for the fact that the manga has them as equals. If Super knows the endgame is that Goku is always going to be stronger than Vegeta, or at the very least one step ahead, don't bother giving off the idea they will always be equal when you know that will never be true.

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Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by Logania » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:34 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:You know what I think wonderfully sums up the "rivalry" between Goku and Vegeta:

Image
That is beautiful. Gonna save this in my manga folder lol

But yeah, it's no rivalry. Goku is Vegeta's rival and Goku is...also Goku's rival.

They kinda dropped it off at the end of the Majin Buu Saga and I love it when Goku and Vegeta are basically a tag-team like in the Future Trunks Saga or training for the Universe 6 Tournament together, their personalities play off each other well and it's great. But when it goes back to Vegeta Prince of Monologues mode about Goku passing him it just cuts back all the development he has and goes back to Cell Saga Vegeta, the worst version of him.
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Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by Jigurashi » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:38 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:I'd just like to add that while I do get a bit of a kick of Goku and Vegeta being on level pegging, it's not mandatory, nor does it have any effect on my enjoyment of the story. But it must also be stressed that for the Goku and Vegeta to some kind of rivalry, the incentive to becoming stronger has to be mutual. A rivalry can't work if it's one sided. And Goku doesn't care if Vegeta is as strong, or stronger than him, 99.9% of the time. So having them on an even keel with regards to power won't matter in the end. It especially won't matter if by the end of any given story arc the gap in strength between the two "rivals" is considerably big. And it's even worse if it's the person who doesn't give a shit about the rivarily is the one who is much stronger than the person who does give a shit about the rivalry. This is why I'm kinda glad that anime dropped the idea that Goku and Vegeta will always been on par with each other and I don't care for the fact that the manga has them as equals. If Super knows the endgame is that Goku is always going to be stronger than Vegeta, or at the very least one step ahead, don't bother giving off the idea they will always be equal when you know that will never be true.
Everything you said in this thread is spot on. It’s just the nature of how rivals in this series are written as well as Goku’s own mindset that prevents rivalries in this series from growing and expanding. Goku hasn’t considered Vegeta a rival to him since Namek and Vegeta didn’t start becoming Uber obsessed with Goku until post-Namek when Goku began losing interest in him.

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Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by TBMx » Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:53 pm

If Goku didn't care about Vegeta surpassing him, why did he burst through Bulma's wall, interrupt her conversation with Chi Chi and act all outraged when she said Vegeta had gone training without him?

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Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by Jigurashi » Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:11 pm

TBMx wrote:If Goku didn't care about Vegeta surpassing him, why did he burst through Bulma's wall, interrupt her conversation with Chi Chi and act all outraged when she said Vegeta had gone training without him?
Cause Vegeta is training with Whis 6 months in advance while Goku himself was not? He straight up joked about Vegeta being stronger than him when he raged on Beerus, and even Vegeta got salty in episode 72 and mentioned how Goku cares about fighting Hit more than himself. Then in this current saga you had Goku sparring with Whis and Whis even noting how he’s been ignoring Vegeta. Hell this was an episode after Goku said he’d been wanting to fight strong dudes but had forgotten about Gohan but didn’t at all bring Vegeta up.

Goku really doesn’t care about Vegeta anywhere near as much as Vegeta cares about him as a rival. Lord Beerus’ photo he posted on the previous page perfectly sums it all up. Vegeta really is just mostly competing with himself. Goku lives rent-free in his head. While Goku rarely ever really thinks about Vegeta.

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Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by TBMx » Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:23 pm

Jigurashi wrote:
TBMx wrote:If Goku didn't care about Vegeta surpassing him, why did he burst through Bulma's wall, interrupt her conversation with Chi Chi and act all outraged when she said Vegeta had gone training without him?
Cause Vegeta is training with Whis 6 months in advance while Goku himself was not? He straight up joked about Vegeta being stronger than him when he raged on Beerus, and even Vegeta got salty in episode 72 and mentioned how Goku cares about fighting Hit more than himself. Then in this current saga you had Goku sparring with Whis and Whis even noting how he’s been ignoring Vegeta. Hell this was an episode after Goku said he’d been wanting to fight strong dudes but had forgotten about Gohan but didn’t at all bring Vegeta up.

Goku really doesn’t care about Vegeta anywhere near as much as Vegeta cares about him as a rival. Lord Beerus’ photo he posted on the previous page perfectly sums it all up. Vegeta really is just mostly competing with himself. Goku lives rent-free in his head. While Goku rarely ever really thinks about Vegeta.
So your argument is he doesn't care, but does care if the gap seems like it might get too big? :crazy:

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Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by Jigurashi » Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:27 pm

TBMx wrote:
Jigurashi wrote:
TBMx wrote:If Goku didn't care about Vegeta surpassing him, why did he burst through Bulma's wall, interrupt her conversation with Chi Chi and act all outraged when she said Vegeta had gone training without him?
Cause Vegeta is training with Whis 6 months in advance while Goku himself was not? He straight up joked about Vegeta being stronger than him when he raged on Beerus, and even Vegeta got salty in episode 72 and mentioned how Goku cares about fighting Hit more than himself. Then in this current saga you had Goku sparring with Whis and Whis even noting how he’s been ignoring Vegeta. Hell this was an episode after Goku said he’d been wanting to fight strong dudes but had forgotten about Gohan but didn’t at all bring Vegeta up.

Goku really doesn’t care about Vegeta anywhere near as much as Vegeta cares about him as a rival. Lord Beerus’ photo he posted on the previous page perfectly sums it all up. Vegeta really is just mostly competing with himself. Goku lives rent-free in his head. While Goku rarely ever really thinks about Vegeta.
So your argument is he doesn't care, but does care if the gap seems like it might get too big? :crazy:
No. He simply wanted to train with Whis too. He knew Vegeta was far above him when Vegeta exited the Rosat but didn’t give a damn then at all. He just simply doesn’t really care about if Vegeta is stronger at all.

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Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by TBMx » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:31 pm

Jigurashi wrote:
TBMx wrote:
Jigurashi wrote: Cause Vegeta is training with Whis 6 months in advance while Goku himself was not? He straight up joked about Vegeta being stronger than him when he raged on Beerus, and even Vegeta got salty in episode 72 and mentioned how Goku cares about fighting Hit more than himself. Then in this current saga you had Goku sparring with Whis and Whis even noting how he’s been ignoring Vegeta. Hell this was an episode after Goku said he’d been wanting to fight strong dudes but had forgotten about Gohan but didn’t at all bring Vegeta up.

Goku really doesn’t care about Vegeta anywhere near as much as Vegeta cares about him as a rival. Lord Beerus’ photo he posted on the previous page perfectly sums it all up. Vegeta really is just mostly competing with himself. Goku lives rent-free in his head. While Goku rarely ever really thinks about Vegeta.
So your argument is he doesn't care, but does care if the gap seems like it might get too big? :crazy:
No. He simply wanted to train with Whis too. He knew Vegeta was far above him when Vegeta exited the Rosat but didn’t give a damn then at all. He just simply doesn’t really care about if Vegeta is stronger at all.
If he simply wanted to train with Whis too, then he wouldn't have crashed through the wall. Such urgency only makes sense if he's worried about falling behind. Whether Vegeta's been training for 6 months or 6 years wouldn't make a difference if Goku didn't care about Vegeta's position, yet Goku was exasperated about Vegeta being gone for half a year at Whis's. Goku looked like he cared when Vegeta left the Rosat, he looked shocked at Vegeta's claim and they had their staredown. But then he wouldn't be super concerned as he knew it was his turn next.

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Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by Jigurashi » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:50 pm

TBMx wrote:
Jigurashi wrote:
TBMx wrote:
So your argument is he doesn't care, but does care if the gap seems like it might get too big? :crazy:
No. He simply wanted to train with Whis too. He knew Vegeta was far above him when Vegeta exited the Rosat but didn’t give a damn then at all. He just simply doesn’t really care about if Vegeta is stronger at all.
If he simply wanted to train with Whis too, then he wouldn't have crashed through the wall. Such urgency only makes sense if he's worried about falling behind. Whether Vegeta's been training for 6 months or 6 years wouldn't make a difference if Goku didn't care about Vegeta's position, yet Goku was exasperated about Vegeta being gone for half a year at Whis's. Goku looked like he cared when Vegeta left the Rosat, he looked shocked at Vegeta's claim and they had their staredown. But then he wouldn't be super concerned as he knew it was his turn next.
He wouldn’t have reacted that way if it was just to train with him? Really? He kept on bugging Whis about training him. Nothing about Vegeta surpassing him was there. Goku didn’t look like he cared after the rosat either lol. He had no care when Vegeta left the rosat. Unless you mean anime filler. In the original manga there was no stare down and there was nothing about Goku being shocked. He straight up had really no care for how strong Vegeta got. He had no concern for Vegeta anyway. Like how he watched Vegeta fight Beerus and surpass him and perform better against Beerus when he himself got two shorter and Goku just jokes about it. He really doesn’t care all that much.

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Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by lancerman » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:53 pm

Goku is like Vegeta's pacer. Vegeta uses him as a benchmark so he can strive to exceed him. It's not the old rivalry it was where Vegeta just hated Goku's guts and wanted nothing more than to defeat him. They are friends and one friend is trying to one up the other.

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Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by HeroR » Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:33 am

Lord Beerus wrote:You know what I think wonderfully sums up the "rivalry" between Goku and Vegeta:

Image

There is no rivalry. There wasn't one to even begin with, in all honesty. To imply there was a rivalry between two parties, one would have to insinuate that all those involved in it carry the same amount determination to outdo the other. And that's never displayed in the original story. And as the OP pointed out, it's a one sided rivalry with Vegeta being the only one who truly take to heart that Goku is one step ahead of him and Goku not really giving a shit 99% of the time. It was arbitrarily brought up again to some degree in Resurrection F, only to be discarded and then dropped again after the events Resurrection F. I'll be the first to admit that I've always thought that Goku and Vegeta used to play a game of one-upping each other, but after re-reading the manga, yeah, there's nothing there.
There was a rivalry since Goku really did wanted to suppressed and beat up Vegeta after the Saiyan Saga. Then Goku got over it after Freeza pierced Vegeta's heart.

But overall, Vegeta is a 'playmate' for Goku.
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Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by Saturnine » Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:21 am

Goku indeed doesn't care much about Vegeta, but to be perfectly fair Goku was never a character who's kept up prolonged rivalries. He just wants to keep getting stronger and stronger. If other people get stronger too - good for them. The only moments when Goku feels a rivalry is during the fight itself (he tends to tell his opponents they're "really something else" and "maybe we can fight again"), but once he defeats them once, he loses interest practically permanently. Goku likes fighting everyone equally, he likes strong people etc but he doesn't keep ongoing rivalries. He did hire Hit to kill him simply because he considered the fight between them unfinished, and Hit was the strongest opponent he had at the time. Once Goku managed to score a double KO on Hit, he immediately switched to his regular "That was cool, let's fight again sometime or whatever" mode.

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Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:43 am

HeroR wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:You know what I think wonderfully sums up the "rivalry" between Goku and Vegeta:

Image

There is no rivalry. There wasn't one to even begin with, in all honesty. To imply there was a rivalry between two parties, one would have to insinuate that all those involved in it carry the same amount determination to outdo the other. And that's never displayed in the original story. And as the OP pointed out, it's a one sided rivalry with Vegeta being the only one who truly take to heart that Goku is one step ahead of him and Goku not really giving a shit 99% of the time. It was arbitrarily brought up again to some degree in Resurrection F, only to be discarded and then dropped again after the events Resurrection F. I'll be the first to admit that I've always thought that Goku and Vegeta used to play a game of one-upping each other, but after re-reading the manga, yeah, there's nothing there.
There was a rivalry since Goku really did wanted to suppressed and beat up Vegeta after the Saiyan Saga. Then Goku got over it after Freeza pierced Vegeta's heart.

But overall, Vegeta is a 'playmate' for Goku.
But even in the that case, Vegeta didn't give a shit about being Goku's rival. He just wanted to kill Goku and destroy the world. So if there was a rivalry between Goku and Vegeta in the Saiyan arc, it was one sided on Goku's part.

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Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by coola » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:49 am

I always saw Vegeta as tsundere/yandere like character, he keeps going on "Notice me Kakarotto, I'm stronger than you" and Goku either ignore it, or humor him, so princess will stop throwing tantrums :)
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Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by HeroR » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:52 am

Lord Beerus wrote: But even in the that case, Vegeta didn't give a shit about being Goku's rival. He just wanted to kill Goku and destroy the world. So if there was a rivalry between Goku and Vegeta in the Saiyan arc, it was one sided on Goku's part.
Yes and no. Vegeta did want to kill Goku for what happened in the Saiyan Saga, but his grudge against Goku during Namek was secondary and he never really saw Goku as his equal. Just some upstart low class bug that he will eventually smash after he dealt with the bigger fish. So there was sorta a rivalry, just not a well define one. For example, Goku and Jiren are called 'rivals', despite only Goku wanting to surpassed Jiren with Jiren himself not really caring.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by Marlowe89 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:47 am

It's interesting to me that people don't consider this a rivalry. I can think of several other rivalries from other franchises that are just as, if not more, "one-sided" than this, so I doubt this perfectly equal idea of mutual interest necessarily defines the archetype as it's typically presented in Japanese media.
Last edited by Marlowe89 on Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by PsionicWarrior » Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:31 pm

sintzu wrote:It should've ended with him admiting Goku being #1 during the Buu arc. What Super should've done is let Vegeta go on his own adventures and fight his own villains while Goku is doing his own thing like what Sasuke did in Naruto Shippuden.
Or, when Vegeta was getting beaten up by Jiren they could've made a Goku monologue, with him admiring Vegeta in return, as a callback to that moment you mention from the Buu arc. I would have loved that.

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Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by sintzu » Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:53 pm

PsionicWarrior wrote:
sintzu wrote:It should've ended with him admiting Goku being #1 during the Buu arc. What Super should've done is let Vegeta go on his own adventures and fight his own villains while Goku is doing his own thing like what Sasuke did in Naruto Shippuden.
Or, when Vegeta was getting beaten up by Jiren they could've made a Goku monologue, with him admiring Vegeta in return, as a callback to that moment you mention from the Buu arc. I would have loved that.
There are multiple different things they could've doe instead of the same old same old we're used to. Hopefully your idea will make it into the manga.
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