The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

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Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by Nero<>Akira » Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:19 pm

So we just gonna forget that Goku said in the beginninng of the TOP in the anime that he may surpass Vegeta if he didn't train? The rivalry has been there since F. Shit, when DB Online was made (Toriyama did say the game was a continuation of his manga), Goku and Vegeta both died in space because they went to go settle their rivalry.
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Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by Aman » Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:40 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:It's interesting to me that people don't consider this a rivalry. I can think of several other rivalries from other franchises that are just as, if not more, "one-sided" than this, so I doubt this perfectly equal idea of mutual interest necessarily defines the archetype as it's typically presented in Japanese media.
It somewhat reminds me of Deku-Bakugo.

Bakugo character is basically Vegeta, the funny thing is I don't like him one bit and don't take him seriously as a rival even though he's ahead of Deku. He's talented, prideful, and hot headed but he doesn't have the charm or wit of Vegeta. There is another character named Shoto who I want to be his rival, he's completely different and would be a far more interesting rival.

But I'd still put this rivalry well ahead because Deku wants to catch and surpass Bakugo, so it's already a better rivalry as the protagonist is invested in his rival and sees him as an obstacle to overcome.

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Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by Torturephile » Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:09 pm

Team Four Star summed it up for me in this scene. Not after Namek I got the vibe that Goku considered Vegeta a rival and instead was just there for him.
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Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by HeroR » Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:21 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:It's interesting to me that people don't consider this a rivalry. I can think of several other rivalries from other franchises that are just as, if not more, "one-sided" than this, so I doubt this perfectly equal idea of mutual interest necessarily defines the archetype as it's typically presented in Japanese media.
I never personally considered those rivalries either. To me, a rivalry needs both characters to give a damn, otherwise it just comes off as the other person being obsessive.
Torturephile wrote:Team Four Star summed it up for me in this scene. Not after Namek I got the vibe that Goku considered Vegeta a rival and instead was just there for him.

Not even the biggest fan of TFS and this scene pops into my head every time I think of Goku and Vegeta's rivalry.
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precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by Aman » Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:00 pm

HeroR wrote:
Marlowe89 wrote:It's interesting to me that people don't consider this a rivalry. I can think of several other rivalries from other franchises that are just as, if not more, "one-sided" than this, so I doubt this perfectly equal idea of mutual interest necessarily defines the archetype as it's typically presented in Japanese media.
I never personally considered those rivalries either. To me, a rivalry needs both characters to give a damn, otherwise it just comes off as the other person being obsessive.
Torturephile wrote:Team Four Star summed it up for me in this scene. Not after Namek I got the vibe that Goku considered Vegeta a rival and instead was just there for him.

Not even the biggest fan of TFS and this scene pops into my head every time I think of Goku and Vegeta's rivalry.
I don't know why they keep falling back on it, or try to play it up as a rivalry when they don't even bother with it. If anything, it's Vegeta playing the role of the protagonist trying to catch up with Goku who is always ahead of him.

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Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by HeroR » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:31 pm

Aman wrote:
HeroR wrote:
Marlowe89 wrote:It's interesting to me that people don't consider this a rivalry. I can think of several other rivalries from other franchises that are just as, if not more, "one-sided" than this, so I doubt this perfectly equal idea of mutual interest necessarily defines the archetype as it's typically presented in Japanese media.
I never personally considered those rivalries either. To me, a rivalry needs both characters to give a damn, otherwise it just comes off as the other person being obsessive.
Torturephile wrote:Team Four Star summed it up for me in this scene. Not after Namek I got the vibe that Goku considered Vegeta a rival and instead was just there for him.

Not even the biggest fan of TFS and this scene pops into my head every time I think of Goku and Vegeta's rivalry.
I don't know why they keep falling back on it, or try to play it up as a rivalry when they don't even bother with it. If anything, it's Vegeta playing the role of the protagonist trying to catch up with Goku who is always ahead of him.
Not all protagonists are behind the rival, although the most popular rivalry uses "underdog protagonist" vs. "superior rival".
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precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by Akyon » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:59 pm

Maybe if Vegeta had any useful abilities in areas other than brute strength he'd be able to rival Goku despite the latter always obtaining a new form prior to him but unfortunately he's got nothing to offer.

Goku has access to a power up ability in Kaioken to bolster his already impressive strength, is always a step ahead in the Saiyans transformations, is naturally more gifted at Ultra Instinct since he thinks less in battle than Vegeta and has some tricky abilities such as Instant Transmission to fall back on...and Vegeta has...some trademark ki blast attacks that are likely weaker than Goku's and do not hold any special properties.

Hit at least has tricky abilities for potential rivalry. Vegeta sadly hasn't got anything to try and close the gap in ability.
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Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by Lionel » Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:53 pm

Vegeta glorifies and embraces an apish culture of brawniness and uncouth ferocity. I think Goku was very fortunate to be sent to Earth where more of a disciplinary standard of combat could be instilled into him. If Toriyama was more knowledgeable about the technicals of martial arts then this disparity in upbringing might be more noticeable. Right now, as Akyon explained, he doesn't have any means for raising his power in a creative way that Goku couldn't replicate. Maybe if he somehow harnessed the power of Oozaru that would be a good first step since Vegeta does know how to retain his consciousness after transforming.

Otherwise, I feel like Vegeta should possibly be retired. He's been the defacto standard of rivalry since Dragon Ball Z started. Someone else like Hit might make for an interesting rival because of his abilities and unorthodox fighting style. But we know the likelihood of Vegeta getting phased out is next to zero. For better or worse, he's become the deuteragonistic poster child for Dragon Ball.

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Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by prince212 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:26 am

Lionel wrote:Vegeta glorifies and embraces an apish culture of brawniness and uncouth ferocity. I think Goku was very fortunate to be sent to Earth where more of a disciplinary standard of combat could be instilled into him. If Toriyama was more knowledgeable about the technicals of martial arts then this disparity in upbringing might be more noticeable. Right now, as Akyon explained, he doesn't have any means for raising his power in a creative way that Goku couldn't replicate. Maybe if he somehow harnessed the power of Oozaru that would be a good first step since Vegeta does know how to retain his consciousness after transforming.

Otherwise, I feel like Vegeta should possibly be retired. He's been the defacto standard of rivalry since Dragon Ball Z started. Someone else like Hit might make for an interesting rival because of his abilities and unorthodox fighting style. But we know the likelihood of Vegeta getting phased out is next to zero. For better or worse, he's become the deuteragonistic poster child for Dragon Ball.
Wow oozaru vegeta mind controlled or vegeta retired !! I don’t want none of those ideas , and I don’t think that will make any good to the show .
There’s no overrated rivalry any more between those two since Majin vegeta and yes , that was more on vegetas side .
For me they are ok the way they are , I like Goku faster improvement and vegeta not so far . I would like something different for vegeta to be closer to ultra instinc level in the future but please not a big monkey , I rather bold head vegeta or Satan’s hair style in blue evolution :D
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Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by Okara » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:19 am

The problem is that the writers seem to think Vegeta’s entire character revolves around this “rivalry” with Goku when that’s not really the case. Yes, for the longest time, it was a huge part of his character. But that was when his character was still being developed, and he wasn’t always like that. In Super’s anime especially, they too often write Vegeta based on his tropes as opposed to how he’d reasonably react to a situation (Such as Vegeta not helping with the Spirit Bomb against Jiren when even Frieza did. Complete nonsense; Vegeta would never do this).

Vegeta’s obsession was supposed to have ended with Buu. I’ve long said that Vegeta should’ve been given his own ambitions for getting stronger in Super that don’t involve Goku at all. Any continued “rivalry” from them should be very casual. They’re an iconic duo, and they can be portrayed as such without Vegeta being obsessed with surpassing Goku.

Manga Vegeta is portrayed MUCH better and more consistently, both as a character and a rival, but again, I would’ve preferred if Toyotaro had given Vegeta his own ambition aside from just beating Kakarot.

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Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by Kaiosama » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:29 am

It's not even necessary to advertise this "rivalry" anymore. The moment Vegeta actually stops caring about surpassing Goku and looking to improve himself through his own hidden potential is the day he may be able to equal Goku (if the writers allow it). I feel like Toei attempted to do this with giving him SSBEvolution to compete with UI Omen, but it actually comes across as a better Kaioken with a bit of a poor man's Ultra Instinct. Even though top end ki output (Final Explosion) for the form may be on par with UI Omen, it was rendered completely irrelevant after Goku mastered Ultra Instinct. Unless Vegeta is able to similarly evolve and optimize his SSBEvolution form with perhaps adding some UI concepts into the form, he will never be able to touch Goku again, which in the end makes the rivalry pointless and puts them back where they were at the end of Z with each other in terms of the gap between SSJ3 and SSJ2.

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Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by Aman » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:43 am

Kaiosama wrote:It's not even necessary to advertise this "rivalry" anymore. The moment Vegeta actually stops caring about surpassing Goku and looking to improve himself through his own hidden potential is the day he may be able to equal Goku (if the writers allow it). I feel like Toei attempted to do this with giving him SSBEvolution to compete with UI Omen, but it actually comes across as a better Kaioken with a bit of a poor man's Ultra Instinct. Even though top end ki output (Final Explosion) for the form may be on par with UI Omen, it was rendered completely irrelevant after Goku mastered Ultra Instinct. Unless Vegeta is able to similarly evolve and optimize his SSBEvolution form with perhaps adding some UI concepts into the form, he will never be able to touch Goku again, which in the end makes the rivalry pointless and puts them back where they were at the end of Z with each other in terms of the gap between SSJ3 and SSJ2.
Vegeta was the last Z fighter who was relevent and close to Goku in power. Now he's left them all behind.

In DB, if you aren't powerful, you lose relevance. That's why Gohan, Piccolo, Tien etc. are irrelevent to fans. Gohan still has some fans, but another series where he does little will kill that.

I use to be a Gohan fan, he was just ahead of Vegeta for me. He was awesome up until Cell, then they messed up after that... Just hoping Vegeta doesn't suffer the same fate.

DB has a good knack of killing characters, hopefully Vegeta is the exception as he makes a great foil to Goku and is his eternal rival who should be close in power to Goku until they have their final battle and die.
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Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by Lionel » Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:59 am

Is Goku's penchant for eclipsing everyone a product of his merit alone or do circumstance have any role to play? For that matter, I think the inability to have value without boasting a high power level has more to do with the rigid one-dimensional system that's in place. It's not so much an inherent deficiency on the part of the characters but rather the willingness or lack thereof for the author to do something that would bequeath narrative importance to them. How Toriyama goes about doing this wouldn't have to be related to power, even though you could help make that a reality very easily using the tools that are already available. However, as mentioned several times now, it would take a drastic overhaul of the system to get the kind of mechanics that would be more compatible with the unique skillsets of the characters instead of just apishly pounding their chests in a gesture of self-entitled dominance through their superficially defined "power level".

Vegeta's rivalry with Goku hasn't borne much fruit in the way of its intended goal and that is surpassing him. When he's not playing catch-up, Goku is discovering some newfangled transformation that sets him a few steps ahead; the narrative helps to facilitate that he receives a power up to combat the latest threat. How does Vegeta counteract that with the limited options he has available and with an author who doesn't seem to have the creative spark needed to have his character think outside the box for once? Toriyama doesn't do his character very many favours by keeping a straight and narrow avenue which Vegeta has no choice but to cross if he wants to do anything.

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Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by Aman » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:02 am

Lionel wrote:Is Goku's penchant for eclipsing everyone a product of his merit alone or do circumstance have any role to play? For that matter, I think the inability to have value without boasting a high power level has more to do with the rigid one-dimensional system that's in place. It's not so much an inherent deficiency on the part of the characters but rather the willingness or lack thereof for the author to do something that would bequeath narrative importance to them. How Toriyama goes about doing this wouldn't have to be related to power, even though you could help make that a reality very easily using the tools that are already available. However, as mentioned several times now, it would take a drastic overhaul of the system to get the kind of mechanics that would be more compatible with the unique skillsets of the characters instead of just apishly pounding their chests in a gesture of self-entitled dominance through their superficially defined "power level".

Vegeta's rivalry with Goku hasn't borne much fruit in the way of its intended goal and that is surpassing him. When he's not playing catch-up, Goku is discovering some newfangled transformation that sets him a few steps ahead; the narrative helps to facilitate that he receives a power up to combat the latest threat. How does Vegeta counteract that with the limited options he has available and with an author who doesn't seem to have the creative spark needed to have his character think outside the box for once? Toriyama doesn't do his character very many favours by keeping a straight and narrow avenue which Vegeta has no choice but to cross if he wants to do anything.
Goku is a transformation nowadays, his character development stopped long back. The only one who seems to get character work is Vegeta, and that's the main reason why he's loved by fans. That at the fact he's the OG antihero badass. That and his badass lines, it's a shame he was never given the opportunity to back up his arrogance. Always seems to talk big before getting stomped :(

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Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by Lionel » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:15 am

Aman wrote:
Lionel wrote:Is Goku's penchant for eclipsing everyone a product of his merit alone or do circumstance have any role to play? For that matter, I think the inability to have value without boasting a high power level has more to do with the rigid one-dimensional system that's in place. It's not so much an inherent deficiency on the part of the characters but rather the willingness or lack thereof for the author to do something that would bequeath narrative importance to them. How Toriyama goes about doing this wouldn't have to be related to power, even though you could help make that a reality very easily using the tools that are already available. However, as mentioned several times now, it would take a drastic overhaul of the system to get the kind of mechanics that would be more compatible with the unique skillsets of the characters instead of just apishly pounding their chests in a gesture of self-entitled dominance through their superficially defined "power level".

Vegeta's rivalry with Goku hasn't borne much fruit in the way of its intended goal and that is surpassing him. When he's not playing catch-up, Goku is discovering some newfangled transformation that sets him a few steps ahead; the narrative helps to facilitate that he receives a power up to combat the latest threat. How does Vegeta counteract that with the limited options he has available and with an author who doesn't seem to have the creative spark needed to have his character think outside the box for once? Toriyama doesn't do his character very many favours by keeping a straight and narrow avenue which Vegeta has no choice but to cross if he wants to do anything.
Goku is a transformation nowadays, his character development stopped long back. The only one who seems to get character work is Vegeta, and that's the main reason why he's loved by fans. That at the fact he's the OG antihero badass. That and his badass lines, it's a shame he was never given the opportunity to back up his arrogance. Always seems to talk big before getting stomped :(
I never bought the whole "genius" slogan anyway. Before Goku he had Cui of all people as a rival. Nothing about his "genius" aptitude or strength prevented this out-of-the-blue random alien living behind Freeza's coattails from openly grinding his axe in a taunting gesture. Maybe instead of telling that he's this bad@ veteran warrior they could show it through his actions. Vegeta's got good tenacity, I'll give him that, but I think the conventional definition of "genius" is lost whenever he fights. It's nothing truly different or advanced -- all of it's just the same typical manoeuvres seen back in the 21st tournament except the script writers are cutting more corners now by portraying the fights as a barely distinguishable flurry of fists and feet.

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Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by Bruma rabu » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:24 am

The toxic rivalry the had was concluded with majin vegeta. The rivalry they have now is more of them just trying to one up each other.
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Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by jplaya2023 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:17 pm

well in H2H fights vegeta is 1-0-1

He won the saiyan saga battle the moment krilian and gohan got involved in the fight and would've beaten goku in great ape form

As SSJ2 it was a tie.

In Super they trained 3 straight years and in the rosat and until goku got UI they were equals in all ssj forms sans blue kaioken

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Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by Whatever » Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:11 am

sintzu wrote:
TBMx wrote:Toyotaro goes a long way to correcting this, resulting in a vastly superior product.
Toyotaro has gone a long way in correcting Super as a whole so hopefully when it returns (or if a new anime takes its place) it'll be based off his manga, not whatever generic writer #8 is doing that week.
You both got something wrong.The problem of Goku's and Vegeta's one sided rivalry is not who is stronger or if they are close in power.

Its that Goku does not care about Vegeta and how poorly structured the foundation of their 'rivalry' is.
Vegeta exited the TC stronger than Goku,yet Goku did not give a single damn but when Goku did it the opposite happened.

Vegeta could be stronger than Goku 100% of the time from this point on and their rivarly would still be as one sided and poor as ever,Toyotaro changed nothing about their rivalry outside of treating Vegeta better due to his favoritism of him.
Their dynamic is the same as the anime,what make a major difference is that almost everybody is underwhelming in the manga so Goku does not care much about them.

If Toyotaro's Goku ever met anime Hit,he would forget Vegeta even exists.

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Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by sintzu » Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:35 am

Whatever wrote:,Toyotaro is treating Vegeta better due to his favoritism of him.
He said his favorite was Goku so him treating Vegeta better than the anime does has to do with good writing and balancing his role with Goku's.

Despite all he's given Vegeta, he still made sure to give just as much if not more to Goku, the difference between how he and Toei write Goku is that he doesn't force him down our throats. In some cases like here, less is more.
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Re: The Goku-Vegeta rivalry is the most overrated rivalry in fiction and should be concluded in Super

Post by Michsi » Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:05 am

sintzu wrote:
Whatever wrote:,Toyotaro is treating Vegeta better due to his favoritism of him.
He said his favorite was Goku so him treating Vegeta better than the anime does has to do with good writing and balancing his role with Goku's.

Despite all he's given Vegeta, he still made sure to give just as much if not more to Goku, the difference between how he and Toei write Goku is that he doesn't force him down our throats. In some cases like here, less is more.

To be honest, I'd avoid being honest when answering this question, too. Specifically to divert the 'fanboy' criticism. Makes Vegeta's importance feel genuine instead of character favoritism. Goku is the safest answer, because he is supposed to be the star of the show.

How was he treating these characters in his fancomic?

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