Why have the climaxes for Super been so unconventional?

[WittyUsername]

With the exception of Ressurection ‘F’ (and even that required a last minute save by Whis), none of the major arcs in the series have had the heroes actually defeating the antagonists. Goku lost to Beerus, he forfeited his match against Hit, Zen-Oh was the one who got rid of Zamasu, and [spoiler]Goku apparently loses to Jiren.[/spoiler]

My question is, why do you think this has been the case?

[Miracles]

Cause this theme has been continued since Dragonball.

[ToshioWrites]

Cause Goku losing means he has something to strive for and nobody else is gonna get the W.

[Kamiccolo9]

It's almost like winning the fights isn't the goal of the main protagonist.

[ZenkaiBoosts]

Cause Goku losing means he has something to strive for and nobody else is gonna get the W.

Goku can win and still have goals to strive for.

Did Manny Pacquiao winning 5 belts in 5 different weight classes stop him from continuing to move up and win belts at higher weights?

No. Manny ended up with 8 belts in 8 different weight classes. The record by a large margin

Theres always something to strive for. Goku is self driven and simply loves the challenge of always reaching new heights for himself.

In regards to this thread, It is very annoying. I feel at this point, its just been "losing for the sake of losing" and "twist ending for the sake of twist ending"

At this point normalcy is now what is the unexpected. At this point a Goku win is what js unexpected. I hope "normalcy" is restored with a Goku win

Keep in mind, the spoilers arent exactly clear if Goku is eliminated and they could be red herrings to mislead and suprise

[sintzu]

They probably think it'll surprise everyone but at this point it's getting predictable and old. If Goku doesn't beat Jiren then he needs a win in the next movie as losing will be the 6th same ending.

[Saturnine]

It's been the case because the series needs to be fresh and not derivative like Toei's new material. There has been literally no Toei theatrical where a villain was defeated in a way not previously found in Toriyama's manga, except for Cooler getting blown into the Sun (which Toei later ripped off too, once in a theatrical and once in GT). Another possible exception could be the Dragon Fist, but then again it's a stupidly OP and unfair attack heavily borrowing from the way Goku defeated King Piccolo. And then in GT every major villain gets offed in a way previously explored by either Toriyama or Toei themselves.

That's why Super had to break the mold in terms of the storytelling. DB was getting painfully derivative, and such a change of pace is something the series needed. I feel it succeeded with this particular thing.

[SsjCookie]

With the exception of Ressurection ‘F’ (and even that required a last minute save by Whis), none of the major arcs in the series have had the heroes actually defeating the antagonists. Goku lost to Beerus, he forfeited his match against Hit, Zen-Oh was the one who got rid of Zamasu, and [spoiler]Goku apparently loses to Jiren.[/spoiler]

My question is, why do you think this has been the case?

Maybe because of the way Goku has been behaving in Super?
His casual laid back behaviour when it comes to serious life threatening situations is almost.....the way a god would behave when he's full of his power.
If Goku loses, he'll be taken down a peg or two and be reminded what's really important.
Character building at it's best.

[JazzMazz]

With the exception of Ressurection ‘F’ (and even that required a last minute save by Whis), none of the major arcs in the series have had the heroes actually defeating the antagonists. Goku lost to Beerus, he forfeited his match against Hit, Zen-Oh was the one who got rid of Zamasu, and [spoiler]Goku apparently loses to Jiren.[/spoiler]

My question is, why do you think this has been the case?

Maybe because of the way Goku has been behaving in Super?
His casual laid back behaviour when it comes to serious life threatening situations is almost.....the way a god would behave when he's full of his power.
If Goku loses, he'll be taken down a peg or two and be reminded what's really important.
Character building at it's best.

But, that's happened like, several times throughout Super already. What would be the point of doing it again?

Hopefully the film is actually a direct continuation of the TOP, and actually provides the payoff to Goku's character that he really hasn't received in Super.

[ZenkaiBoosts]

It's been the case because the series needs to be fresh and not derivative like Toei's new material. There has been literally no Toei theatrical where a villain was defeated in a way not previously found in Toriyama's manga, except for Cooler getting blown into the Sun (which Toei later ripped off too, once in a theatrical and once in GT). Another possible exception could be the Dragon Fist, but then again it's a stupidly OP and unfair attack heavily borrowing from the way Goku defeated King Piccolo. And then in GT every major villain gets offed in a way previously explored by either Toriyama or Toei themselves.

That's why Super had to break the mold in terms of the storytelling. DB was getting painfully derivative, and such a change of pace is something the series needed. I feel it succeeded with this particular thing.

The irony is that now what is truly derivative is Goku always losing/no clean defeats against the antagonists in Super

This is why things should never be done to "cater to nay sayers" or just for the sake of it to "go against the grain." Because then you just simply go derivative in the other direction. Then the "unconventional" endings are what become boring and repetitive when always played out etc

A healthy balance of Goku losing and winning would've been ideal. In real life, even bad fighters some how manage to win a few. Yet in Super, fighters who are god tier are always losing. Especially Goku who is the ultimate prodigy is always losing. It's a meme that isn't funny. It's a trope now. Goku always losing is what's derivative now. That's what's expected and boring now

With the exception of Ressurection ‘F’ (and even that required a last minute save by Whis), none of the major arcs in the series have had the heroes actually defeating the antagonists. Goku lost to Beerus, he forfeited his match against Hit, Zen-Oh was the one who got rid of Zamasu, and [spoiler]Goku apparently loses to Jiren.[/spoiler]

My question is, why do you think this has been the case?

Maybe because of the way Goku has been behaving in Super?
His casual laid back behaviour when it comes to serious life threatening situations is almost.....the way a god would behave when he's full of his power.
If Goku loses, he'll be taken down a peg or two and be reminded what's really important.
Character building at it's best.

That's not really character building. That is more like charcater nerfing IMO. Goku is a self driven prodigy who always surpasses his limits. The fact he is always losing in Super makes no logical narrative sense considering that

Goku loves the thrill of challenge and pushing himself to new heights and that is what drives Goku. Winning has no impact on that. Goku is self driven. So I don't really get that point.

To be honest I feel it's Jiren who needs to be knocked down a peg. Jiren only believes in strength being the answer to everything and is insanely arrogant in his overwhelming strength. This is why I hope Goku defeats Jiren so that he can teach Jiren a lesson In humility/knock Jiren down a peg from his arrogance. Goku isn't arrogant and is humble. I really hope Goku finally gets a big win over Jiren and bucks this trend/trope in Super

[SsjCookie]

With the exception of Ressurection ‘F’ (and even that required a last minute save by Whis), none of the major arcs in the series have had the heroes actually defeating the antagonists. Goku lost to Beerus, he forfeited his match against Hit, Zen-Oh was the one who got rid of Zamasu, and [spoiler]Goku apparently loses to Jiren.[/spoiler]

My question is, why do you think this has been the case?

Maybe because of the way Goku has been behaving in Super?
His casual laid back behaviour when it comes to serious life threatening situations is almost.....the way a god would behave when he's full of his power.
If Goku loses, he'll be taken down a peg or two and be reminded what's really important.
Character building at it's best.

But, that's happened like, several times throughout Super already. What would be the point of doing it again?

Hopefully the film is actually a direct continuation of the TOP, and actually provides the payoff to Goku's character that he really hasn't received in Super.

Maybe losing to these characters made him all the more hungry to be the best.
But he's forgetting everyone else around him in doing so.

I never had any problems with Goku having the big win in the end, I always applauded it because I think he deserved it.
Now by the way he's behaving I actually want him to lose, and that's actually quite a difference in how this show is going.

[JazzMazz]

Maybe because of the way Goku has been behaving in Super?
His casual laid back behaviour when it comes to serious life threatening situations is almost.....the way a god would behave when he's full of his power.
If Goku loses, he'll be taken down a peg or two and be reminded what's really important.
Character building at it's best.

But, that's happened like, several times throughout Super already. What would be the point of doing it again?

Hopefully the film is actually a direct continuation of the TOP, and actually provides the payoff to Goku's character that he really hasn't received in Super.

Maybe losing to these characters made him all the more hungry to be the best.
But he's forgetting everyone else around him in doing so.

I never had any problems with Goku having the big win in the end, I always applauded it because I think he deserved it.
Now by the way he's behaving I actually want him to lose, and that's actually quite a difference in how this show is going.

Yeah, but that's not really true now either is it.

His final transformation into UI Omen, was fuelled by him remembering the thoughts and intentions of his comrades and taking upon their will to survive onto himself. I don't see how that's him giving up, or worse yet, forgetting everyone else whose around him, in fact, the contrary is true and is what has been displayed.

[Lionel]

When you dissect the particulars of each major fight, you'll find that Goku hasn't had a "clean" victory with absolutely no external interference or strings attached since Grandpa Gohan in Baba's tournament. I see Goku as a providential goof who has almost always been at the front of the line for anything that gives a character what they need to remain important in this unyielding linear path to success that's been set up. Dragon Ball's conventions, no matter how unfavourable the final result of a fight may be, does see Goku getting treated in a way that's generally more respectable and dignifying for his position than anyone else ever sees -- his fight with Jiren is no different.

So if anything should be done, I think the conventions need to be uplifted even further by having someone else or multiple people take out the main antagonist, preferably they do so while spitting in the face of the normal pattern by winning through some unconventional means divorced from power. Well, I can dream about it if nothing else.

[SsjCookie]

But, that's happened like, several times throughout Super already. What would be the point of doing it again?

Hopefully the film is actually a direct continuation of the TOP, and actually provides the payoff to Goku's character that he really hasn't received in Super.

Maybe losing to these characters made him all the more hungry to be the best.
But he's forgetting everyone else around him in doing so.

I never had any problems with Goku having the big win in the end, I always applauded it because I think he deserved it.
Now by the way he's behaving I actually want him to lose, and that's actually quite a difference in how this show is going.

Yeah, but that's not really true now either is it.

His final transformation into UI Omen, was fuelled by him remembering the thoughts and intentions of his comrades and taking upon their will to survive onto himself. I don't see how that's him giving up, or worse yet, forgetting everyone else whose around him, in fact, the contrary is true and is what has been displayed.

After putting everyone in danger I should hope he thinks of those who would perish if he would lose.
But it doesn't change the fact that every other universe ceases to exist if he wins.
And him using the S Dragonballs to wish them all back is too much of a dream scenario for me.
If that would actually happen in the end I think I'll just die of boredom.

[Kataphrut]

It's been the case because the series needs to be fresh and not derivative like Toei's new material. There has been literally no Toei theatrical where a villain was defeated in a way not previously found in Toriyama's manga, except for Cooler getting blown into the Sun (which Toei later ripped off too, once in a theatrical and once in GT). Another possible exception could be the Dragon Fist, but then again it's a stupidly OP and unfair attack heavily borrowing from the way Goku defeated King Piccolo. And then in GT every major villain gets offed in a way previously explored by either Toriyama or Toei themselves.

That's why Super had to break the mold in terms of the storytelling. DB was getting painfully derivative, and such a change of pace is something the series needed. I feel it succeeded with this particular thing.

While I sort of agree with you, I feel like at some point the story still needs to deliver a satisfying climax.

Goku losing in Battle of Gods was refreshing, almost revolutionary at the time, because as you said, the series had become stuck in a predictable rut up to that point. Then Resurrection F tried to repeat the idea and failed due to a combination of awkward storytelling and deus ex machina. U6 tournament was ok because it was a quirky, not-very-serious arc; Goku surrendering and Monaka winning the tournament felt like the good kind of Toriyama troll. Then Future Trunks arc did it and REALLY pissed people off. The idea might have worked, except the circumstances surrounding Zamasu's victory came completely out of nowhere (suddenly he's The Sky) and the anime had built everyone's hopes up with an overwhelmingly positive climax in the previous episode. The manga only improved the idea by lowering the bar, which...is not much better.

Now the Tournament of Power is set to continue the trend, and I find it very hard to imagine how they can pull it off in a way that isn't going to piss everyone off. There's a lot riding on this final match between Goku and Jiren, it's been over 30 episodes in the making, the power gap has closed, there's all these big important themes in play like Breaking Your Limits, Surpassing the Gods, Power of Friendship vs Abandoning Trust etc. To have that (maybe) end with Jiren ringing out Goku and Freeza stealing the win? It feels like less "unconventional storytelling" and more a fuck you to the audience that's been following this arc for now more than a year.

Basically, if Super could only have one "clean" victory, it should have been this one.

[ZenkaiBoosts]

It's been the case because the series needs to be fresh and not derivative like Toei's new material. There has been literally no Toei theatrical where a villain was defeated in a way not previously found in Toriyama's manga, except for Cooler getting blown into the Sun (which Toei later ripped off too, once in a theatrical and once in GT). Another possible exception could be the Dragon Fist, but then again it's a stupidly OP and unfair attack heavily borrowing from the way Goku defeated King Piccolo. And then in GT every major villain gets offed in a way previously explored by either Toriyama or Toei themselves.

That's why Super had to break the mold in terms of the storytelling. DB was getting painfully derivative, and such a change of pace is something the series needed. I feel it succeeded with this particular thing.

While I sort of agree with you, I feel like at some point the story still needs to deliver a satisfying climax.

Goku losing in Battle of Gods was refreshing, almost revolutionary at the time, because as you said, the series had become stuck in a predictable rut up to that point. Then Resurrection F tried to repeat the idea and failed due to a combination of awkward storytelling and deus ex machina. U6 tournament was ok because it was a quirky, not-very-serious arc; Goku surrendering and Monaka winning the tournament felt like the good kind of Toriyama troll. Then Future Trunks arc did it and REALLY pissed people off. The idea might have worked, except the circumstances surrounding Zamasu's victory came completely out of nowhere (suddenly he's The Sky) and the anime had built everyone's hopes up with an overwhelmingly positive climax in the previous episode. The manga only improved the idea by lowering the bar, which...is not much better.

Now the Tournament of Power is set to continue the trend, and I find it very hard to imagine how they can pull it off in a way that isn't going to piss everyone off. There's a lot riding on this final match between Goku and Jiren, it's been over 30 episodes in the making, the power gap has closed, there's all these big important themes in play like Breaking Your Limits, Surpassing the Gods, Power of Friendship vs Abandoning Trust etc. To have that (maybe) end with Jiren ringing out Goku and Freeza stealing the win? It feels like less "unconventional storytelling" and more a fuck you to the audience that's been following this arc for now more than a year.

Basically, if Super could only have one "clean" victory, it should have been this one.

Beautifully said. I'm giving you a standing ovation right now lol

[Saturnine]

Yeah, if there was supposed to ever be a clean win, this here would probably be the best chance to do it. Still, even in the example of Goku vs Freeza that you (ZenkaiBoosts) so lovingly quote Goku was believed to have perished at the time too, making it a Pyrrhic victory at best. Later we find out he survived, but guess what, so did Freeza. Toriyama liked to mix it up since day one.

And to be perfectly fair, I can live without Goku winning here too, since the most important victory to win here is ensuring the universe's survival. Everything else is just gravy. Toriyama and the rest of the writing cast must have thought the same thing and did things to mix everything up. Fans have for months now expected that Goku would win, get the wish and bring everyone back. Something else will probably happen, and no one can predict what it's going to be right now. I find that cool.

[Glen300]

Probably not wanting to have multiple fights with antagonist end the same way.

The transform then eventually overpower the Big Bad was done twice already.

[Lord Beerus]

Because Toriyama is an unconventional writer.

[majinwarman]

Because Toriyama is an unconventional writer.

That is really the true answer here.