I think Toriyama's time is over with the Dragonball series

[sintzu]

As to the claim that Dragon Ball can't be good without Toriyama, I'd just like to point people towards the Bardock special.

I can point to GT and even Boruto to who say it can be good without him.

[OLKv3]

I don't have any nostalgic attachment towards the franchise and Super still can't touch the original series. This excuse is stupid.

It isn't necessarily an excuse. i am not excusing anything considering I didn't concede the notion that Super needs fixing and then make an excuse for it. I was just trying to rationalize the hatred for it because I don't really understand it. Like I said episode 130 is to many(including me) the single greatest episode of the entire franchise. And for good reason it had everything going for it. If anything the story elements have progressed further especially from the painfully generic villain who is "evil just for the sake of being evil" in contrast with Zamasu and his motives and Jiren being the main antagonist but still a good person.

You never just had just 'evil for the sake of being evil' characters considering Majin Vegeta, Roshi, Tenshinhan, the androids, Piccolo and Mr. Boo were all antagonists in the original series. 130 is everything but good in terms of its writing. It's a vast departure from the way that the original series portrayed itself and it seems to me more like a ploy to grab the fans of modern, lesser Shounen that rely heavily on emotional manipulation and melodrama masquerading as 'deep' character drama to gain viewers. I won't blame this on Toriyama though; I'm almost sure it was Toei's doing, but this doesn't excuse Toriyama's terrible plot points and ideas all throughout the modern DB revival, starting with Resurrection 'F' way back in 2015.

Seeing as Toei wanted Jiren to be extremely heroic, I highly doubt it's their doing. Toriyama is the one who made Jiren the angry loner who lost his family

[PFM18]

As to the claim that Dragon Ball can't be good without Toriyama, I'd just like to point people towards the Bardock special.

I can point to GT and even Boruto to who say it can be good without him.

exactly GT is horrendous. DB without Toriyama is like grilled cheese without the cheese and propensity to be greasy

[GodKaio-Ken]

I thought Battle of Gods, Jaco, and Resurrection F were completely fine.

They just need to stop making TV anime, since he's not as hands-on there, and Toei's script writers can't seem to adapt his painfully minimal notes very well.

No...please don't stop making the anime. I know it's entirely a matter of personal opinion but I prefer the anime 10x more than the manga in this case.

That said they are stopping it....i just mean I hope it continues in the future.

[MKCSTEALTH]

I think Toriyama is fine where he's at. I'm cool with Toyotaro's contributions. His manga adaptation and some of his character designs are really good

When it comes to writing, I feel the heart of the issue is we don't have any set people. We have so many different writers that there's no focus. That's why we have such inconsistencies and quite frankly asspulls.

[kn83]

There is no Dragonball without Toriyama, GT proved that lol.

[sintzu]

When it comes to writing, I feel the heart of the issue is we don't have any set people. We have so many different writers that there's no focus. That's why we have such inconsistencies and quite frankly asspulls.

The original's anime also had multiple writers but the reason the writing didn't go down hill was because of the manga, All Super has are vague bullet points that don't give them much to go on, especially when it comes to characters' personalities.

[Doctor.]

As to the claim that Dragon Ball can't be good without Toriyama, I'd just like to point people towards the Bardock special.

I can point to GT and even Boruto to who say it can be good without him.

I don't see how Boruto proves anything considering it's not the same series.

As for GT, the existence of the Bardock special, which was completely devoid of Toriyama's influence outside of the designs, proves it's all about the execution and the team involved.

[RedHeat]

The time of the fanboy is over, not Akira's.

[Cetra]

There is no Dragonball without Toriyama, GT proved that lol.

GT "proves" nothing. That is an absolutely unscientific claim.

[sintzu]

I don't see how Boruto proves anything considering it's not the same series.

As for GT, the existence of the Bardock special, proves it's all about the execution and the team involved.

Boruto is part of a Shonen (Naruto) that's being continued without the original author (Kishimoto) and the results have been terrible to say the least.

The Bardock special is just that, a special. They tried to continue DB as a series without Toriyama and it failed, despite there being some really good ideas.

GT "proves" nothing. That is an absolutely unscientific claim.

How does it prove nothing when it factually killed the franchise for years ?

[Doctor.]

The Bardock special is just that, a special. They tried to continue DB as a series without Toriyama and it failed, despite there being some really good ideas.

I mean, there are plenty of other series that also continued without the original author and have had fantastic results. Just look at most franchises in the West. I don't think that's a good example at all.

GT failed because it was a cash-grab. I'm talking about bringing someone in who has a vision and genuine love for the series, not letting the Toei execs mess around with the universe for the sake of selling more merch. Because that's basically what Super is already.

[Cetra]

How does it prove nothing when it factually killed the franchise for years ?

Don't use terms like "prove" or "factually" if you use them wrong. The franchise was very well still going. It just had no big series like Super. It still sold a lot of other merchandise, games, et cetera.

[Akyon]

As to the claim that Dragon Ball can't be good without Toriyama, I'd just like to point people towards the Bardock special.

I can point to GT and even Boruto to who say it can be good without him.

I don't see how Boruto proves anything considering it's not the same series.

Not only that but many fans of Naruto don't actually enjoy Boruto in the same way many Dragonball fans didn't enjoy GT so it's a bit of an odd example. (EDIT: Oh, Sintzu was arguing AGAINST it, gotcha)

I don't know how to feel about someone new taking over; Toriyama's clearly past the point of caring, but for every Bardock special we've got Dragonball Evolution, Episode of Bardock and arguably GT.

To be honest, I'm not a huge fan of Toriyama's writing style in general when it comes to plots and planning and agree he desperately needs an editor or at least someone who is going to be able to remind him of facts. Even in his prime he managed to forget previously quite important characters such as Taopaipai and Launch.
Heck, we got Androids 18, 17, Cell and Krillin entirely due to editor meddling and I'm frankly thankful we did.

[sintzu]

I'm talking about bringing someone in who has a vision and genuine love for the series, not letting the Toei execs mess around with the universe for the sake of selling more merch. Because that's basically what Super is already.

That's how they like it cause it brings in easy $$$ for them. The days of DB being a story first died with the manga back in 1995. If Toriyama were to leave then things would probably go full heroes where there's 0 story and it's just every saiyan from different timelines getting Ssj3.

The franchise was very well still going. It just had no big series like Super. It still sold a lot of other merchandise, games, et cetera.

That all happened with the franchise's revival through the Kanzenban and dragon boxes. There was a 4-5 year gap where the franchise got 0 thanks to GT. If GT was such a big hit it wouldn't have gotten cancelled and the franchise wouldn't have gotten put on ice for 5 or so years on top of not getting anything new animated wise for another 10 before BOG.

[Logania]

I wouldn't mind him stepping down, honestly.

I really haven't enjoyed his material as much as his stuff from Z or DB. Whether it be plot, characters, transformations they feel unimaginative and sometimes just plain lazy. Toei giving me some anger with the series at times does some really good stories and concepts and they even give me things I enjoy more than Toriyama's work (Bardock, Father of Goku/Fusion Reborn/Wrath of the Dragon) and even though GT wasn't really animated well and had pacing issues, I found the ideas they had like Baby and the Shadow Dragons really interesting.

If he's still working on the series, ok. If he's not, ok. Either thing wouldn't effect me in the slightest.

[Cetra]

That all happened with the franchise's revival through the Kanzenban and dragon boxes. There was a 4-5 year gap where the franchise got 0 thanks to GT. If GT was such a big hit it wouldn't have gotten cancelled and the franchise wouldn't have gotten put on ice for 5 or so years on top of not getting anything new animated wise for another 10 before BOG.

If what you say were true - which it is not - then the series would not have continued to get global popularity overseas. Dragon Ball as a manga for example started in 1997. Wait ... is that not when GT ended? Yes, yes, it is. As said, you expect something ridiculous as a new big show and therefore say it "killed" the franchise. But no new show does not mean "killing a franchise". The manga continued to get translated and other stuff came out as well. You obviously equate nothing of the scale of a new big show or a game of Xenoverse's or FighterZ's popularity to "0". The original Dragon Ball anime also began to air where I live and if you are really refering to something as "after Final Bout it took a while for the games" then this is really a big stretch.

[SuperCyan2]

Putting aside the comedic aspect of using solus the name "Akira," yes it could very well work. Toriyama isn't some brilliant director that most fans make him out to be as the kind of work he's done, any other could just as well and the various spin-offs of Dragon Ball media confirms that. Dragon Ball GT is a great example, it's not beloved by many some of those hate it simply because it wasn't directed by Toriyama (kind of a shallow thing to do/think) and others because they genuinely dislike it. I of course don't mind the fans who criticize it because their points are valid but the whole "this wasn't created by Toriyama so it suckz!!!" attitude doesn't really help at all.

I personally don't really like Super and that's okay, the 'Modern Dragon Ball' era feels like it was made for new fans than old ones and it lacks the creativity, comedy and originality that the original series had. Take the whole Super Saiyan God forms, they are basically just reskins and Goku Black is sort of like another Turles.

At least GT's Super Saiyan 4 Goku wasn't just Goku with even longer hair than Super Saiyan 3 but they rather thought of an original form based around the Saiyan origins with the monkey tail (almost misused 'tale' ).

[PFM18]

How does it prove nothing when it factually killed the franchise for years ?

Don't use terms like "prove" or "factually" if you use them wrong. The franchise was very well still going. It just had no big series like Super. It still sold a lot of other merchandise, games, et cetera.

GT was objectively a poor series but it still doesn't PROVE anything. It isn't definitively saying anything it still ultimately comes down to your opinion whether or not it was still alive

Putting aside the comedic aspect of using solus the name "Akira," yes it could very well work. Toriyama isn't some brilliant director that most fans make him out to be as the kind of work he's done, any other could just as well and the various spin-offs of Dragon Ball media confirms that. Dragon Ball GT is a great example, it's not beloved by many some of those hate it simply because it wasn't directed by Toriyama (kind of a shallow thing to do/think) and others because they genuinely dislike it. I of course don't mind the fans who criticize it because their points are valid but the whole "this wasn't created by Toriyama so it suckz!!!" attitude doesn't really help at all.

I personally don't really like Super and that's okay, the 'Modern Dragon Ball' era feels like it was made for new fans than old ones and it lacks the creativity, comedy and originality that the original series had. Take the whole Super Saiyan God forms, they are basically just reskins and Goku Black is sort of like another Turles.

At least GT's Super Saiyan 4 Goku wasn't just Goku with even longer hair than Super Saiyan 3 but they rather thought of an original form based around the Saiyan origins with the monkey tail (almost misused 'tale' ).

Of the 4 Dragon ball series the only one that you could objectively say is bad is the only one not written by Toriyama. I do not think that this is a coincidence. The other three are amazing(only the latter half for super but still)

[SuperCyan2]

Of the 4 Dragon ball series the only one that you could objectively say is bad is the only one not written by Toriyama. I do not think that this is a coincidence. The other three are amazing(only the latter half for super but still)

Something being 'poor' is subjective in all of its entirety. You may not like it but that doesn't mean it's necessarily bad either, unfortunately GT was cursed by the 'Not a Toriyama series' and many based on that alone despise it without giving it a fair chance. I love GT and would happily watch it any day over Super.

I find it funny you'd call Super "amazing" but hey, that's your opinion so I respect it.