"Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Movie 20 - Animation Hub

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:58 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Amir wrote:
majinwarman wrote: Battle of Gods was a great movie!
In animation? Only a few scenes were good.
I see many people criticizing the animation of the BoG and FNF films, but I don't understand why.

Could someone with knowledge on the subject explain?
ResF suffered from poor direction and SBing thus means any potential for a good KA was already not looking good then taking into Yamamuro essentially correcting everything you are left with a very poor looking film, you look at the KA list and you look at the final product and you're like how did the film end up like this?

BoG direction was a bit better but the narrative sorted of killed it as there was never an opportunity for an extended fight scene until the actual Battle of Gods which started off well enough but then ruined by terrible CGI and then Shida's cut comes in and sticks out like a sore thumb because it is the only quality piece of animation in the film and then that is it narratively the actual fight is over in terms of combat. Of course BoG still suffers from Yamamuro as supervisor. Given BoG was limited on action it really should have been a lot better whenever there was action besides Shida's cut of course.

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Re: Dragon Ball Movie 20 - Animation Hub

Post by Bulma's Foot Masseur » Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:51 pm

Why does everyone hate Yamamuro again? What crimes is he responsible for specifically?

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Re: Dragon Ball Movie 20 - Animation Hub

Post by majinwarman » Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:47 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Amir wrote: In animation? Only a few scenes were good.
I see many people criticizing the animation of the BoG and FNF films, but I don't understand why.

Could someone with knowledge on the subject explain?
ResF suffered from poor direction and SBing thus means any potential for a good KA was already not looking good then taking into Yamamuro essentially correcting everything you are left with a very poor looking film, you look at the KA list and you look at the final product and you're like how did the film end up like this?

BoG direction was a bit better but the narrative sorted of killed it as there was never an opportunity for an extended fight scene until the actual Battle of Gods which started off well enough but then ruined by terrible CGI and then Shida's cut comes in and sticks out like a sore thumb because it is the only quality piece of animation in the film and then that is it narratively the actual fight is over in terms of combat. Of course BoG still suffers from Yamamuro as supervisor. Given BoG was limited on action it really should have been a lot better whenever there was action besides Shida's cut of course.
I think both films lacked balance. One film had lots of fighting while the other had most of the fights in the last thirty minutes. I still like both films but the overall direction could have been better. I could also say that Yamamuro's over corrections was also a problem but that has been talked to death.
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Re: Dragon Ball Movie 20 - Animation Hub

Post by Vegeta_Sama » Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:44 am

Bulma's Foot Masseur wrote:Why does everyone hate Yamamuro again? What crimes is he responsible for specifically?
I'm sure there's people who can explain it better than be, but in short: stiff and bad designs.
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Re: Dragon Ball Movie 20 - Animation Hub

Post by emperior » Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:32 am

Bulma's Foot Masseur wrote:Why does everyone hate Yamamuro again? What crimes is he responsible for specifically?
He was responsible for the bad character designs we have had ever since Battle of Gods, which were a poor adaption of Toriyama's new designs mixed with the Buu arc look. The designs were stiff, overly detailed, with bad triangular noses, blocky hair and skin/hair highlights; basically most of the designs we got in Super weren't animation friendly at all, although Yamamuro improved over the course of Super.

He is also disliked a lot for his work on the movie "Resurrection F", as he handled the storyboard and direction of it and corrected the entirety of the movie art to look as on-model as possible, which is something even some of the animators criticized him for.
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Re: Dragon Ball Movie 20 - Animation Hub

Post by JazzMazz » Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:12 am

Bulma's Foot Masseur wrote:Why does everyone hate Yamamuro again? What crimes is he responsible for specifically?
The biggest problem a lot of people have with Yamamuro is that, his just not very good anymore, and really didn't deserve his lofty position as the second head of the Dragonball franchise visually.

Not only is his lack of skill for the role evident in the visually underwhelming films BOG and ROF, which followed Yamamuro's outlook on the franchise, and recieved flack from big talents in the industry, but his work as animation director and character designer also served to bring down the work of other animators on the project.

I think his biggest, or at least most criticed failure on the franchise, was ROF. Which he was not only the animation director for, but also the storyboard artist and director. This meant that the majority of the films numerous problems, justly, fell squarely into his lap.

Thats why a lot of people were over-joyed with Shintani's reveal as animation director for the new film. Not only is he really talented, but his designs appeared to allow for the creative diversity that Yamamuro's didn't, and as a result, its recieved an overwhelmingly positive response from animators within the industry.

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Re: Dragon Ball Movie 20 - Animation Hub

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Apr 02, 2018 9:45 am

Bulma's Foot Masseur wrote:Why does everyone hate Yamamuro again? What crimes is he responsible for specifically?
He killed me kitten.

Okay, okay, not really.

Yamamuro Tadayoshi's exerted an incredibly high amount of control over the franchise for the last twenty years as it's character designer and chief animation supervisor, enforcing his poorly detailed character designs upon the franchise's promotional art and animated projects. Yamamuro actively changes the work of those better than him to better reflect his character designs, which not only wastes the talent of many good animators but also the production's schedule. His designs are difficult for others to animate (character designs are supposed to be easy to animate, even if they're still drawn by animators with very specific styles). Yamamuro has also slowly moved into the directing field over the years, first storyboarding for Dragon Ball Heroes then for the Dragon Ball Kai Majin Buu arc Opening and Ending animation and Dragon Ball Super. Yamamuro storyboarded the middle of Kami to Kami and all of Fukkatsu no F, in addition to directing the latter. Yamamuro began directing later in his careers, when he was already in his fifties. That's not very reassuring. In fact, it's not reassuring at all, it's downright a symptom of a larger problem (really poor producing from Morishita Kouzou). If you look at everything from 2008-2015 you'll notice that Dragon Ball animated projects we're all overseen by three people: Ueda Yoshihiro (2008, 2010 and 2012 specials storyboard artist and director), Hosoda Masahiro (2013 film director) and Yamamuro Tadayoshi (character designer, animation supervisor of everything and then director of the 2015 film). What do they all have in common? They're dinosaurs from the 1970s and 1980s and worked with Morishita Kouzou, Dragon Ball Z's very conservatively-minded producer. In the case of Hosoda we know for a fact that Morishita gave him the 2013 film because he was his student. These projects were all over seen by incredibly weak directors with next to no major role in Touei Animation outside of directing for television episodes despite being fairly large projects. It goes to show how little effort there was to be fresh and bring in new blood willing to break rules. Frankly, those last two films should've been much more exciting considering the key animators they hired to work on them.

It's really disappointing to see someone like Yamamuro--who consistently worked with fuckin' Yama'uchi Shigeyasu in his youth--take away nothing in terms of exciting directing techniques from him. Couple that in with Yamamuro's sense of timing completely degrading to the point of having no distinction and you've got a beloved franchise stuck looking like ass for ten years. It's no wonder so many animation fans are so exciting by Shintani is bringing to the table, if only because he didn't fuck up Oonishi Ryou's teaser trailer.
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Re: Dragon Ball Movie 20 - Animation Hub

Post by majinwarman » Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:47 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Bulma's Foot Masseur wrote:Why does everyone hate Yamamuro again? What crimes is he responsible for specifically?
He killed me kitten.

Okay, okay, not really.

Yamamuro Tadayoshi's exerted an incredibly high amount of control over the franchise for the last twenty years as it's character designer and chief animation supervisor, enforcing his poorly detailed character designs upon the franchise's promotional art and animated projects. Yamamuro actively changes the work of those better than him to better reflect his character designs, which not only wastes the talent of many good animators but also the production's schedule. His designs are difficult for others to animate (character designs are supposed to be easy to animate, even if they're still drawn by animators with very specific styles). Yamamuro has also slowly moved into the directing field over the years, first storyboarding for Dragon Ball Heroes then for the Dragon Ball Kai Majin Buu arc Opening and Ending animation and Dragon Ball Super. Yamamuro storyboarded the middle of Kami to Kami and all of Fukkatsu no F, in addition to directing the latter. Yamamuro began directing later in his careers, when he was already in his fifties. That's not very reassuring. In fact, it's not reassuring at all, it's downright a symptom of a larger problem (really poor producing from Morishita Kouzou). If you look at everything from 2008-2015 you'll notice that Dragon Ball animated projects we're all overseen by three people: Ueda Yoshihiro (2008, 2010 and 2012 specials storyboard artist and director), Hosoda Masahiro (2013 film director) and Yamamuro Tadayoshi (character designer, animation supervisor of everything and then director of the 2015 film). What do they all have in common? They're dinosaurs from the 1970s and 1980s and worked with Morishita Kouzou, Dragon Ball Z's very conservatively-minded producer. In the case of Hosoda we know for a fact that Morishita gave him the 2013 film because he was his student. These projects were all over seen by incredibly weak directors with next to no major role in Touei Animation outside of directing for television episodes despite being fairly large projects. It goes to show how little effort there was to be fresh and bring in new blood willing to break rules. Frankly, those last two films should've been much more exciting considering the key animators they hired to work on them.

It's really disappointing to see someone like Yamamuro--who consistently worked with fuckin' Yama'uchi Shigeyasu in his youth--take away nothing in terms of exciting directing techniques from him. Couple that in with Yamamuro's sense of timing completely degrading to the point of having no distinction and you've got a beloved franchise stuck looking like ass for ten years. It's no wonder so many animation fans are so exciting by Shintani is bringing to the table, if only because he didn't fuck up Oonishi Ryou's teaser trailer.
Those are the same reasons why I don't like him. I really just want new faces to be leading Dragon Ball. I respect what Yamamuro did for the franchise, it's time for change.
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Re: Dragon Ball Movie 20 - Animation Hub

Post by Okara » Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:54 pm

How is this movie “20” and not movie 16?

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Re: Dragon Ball Movie 20 - Animation Hub

Post by majinwarman » Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:28 pm

Okara wrote:How is this movie “20” and not movie 16?
Because we are counting the Dragon Ball films, not just Z movies.
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Re: Dragon Ball Movie 20 - Animation Hub

Post by Spider-Man » Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:06 pm

Vegeta_Sama wrote: I'm sure there's people who can explain it better than be, but in short: stiff and bad designs.
This sum up my problem with Yamamuro while I respect what he did for the DB franchise, It's time to have him retired.

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Re: Dragon Ball Movie 20 - Animation Hub

Post by Okara » Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:01 am

Vegeta_Sama wrote:
Bulma's Foot Masseur wrote:Why does everyone hate Yamamuro again? What crimes is he responsible for specifically?
I'm sure there's people who can explain it better than be, but in short: stiff and bad designs.
I thought the character designs in BOG and ROF were a lot better than Toriyama’s modern, lazier designs. I don’t get what the problem is in that regard.

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Re: Dragon Ball Movie 20 - Animation Hub

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:35 am

Okara wrote:
Vegeta_Sama wrote:
Bulma's Foot Masseur wrote:Why does everyone hate Yamamuro again? What crimes is he responsible for specifically?
I'm sure there's people who can explain it better than be, but in short: stiff and bad designs.
I thought the character designs in BOG and ROF were a lot better than Toriyama’s modern, lazier designs. I don’t get what the problem is in that regard.
They're not better for being 'less lazy' if they require ill-placed effort. They're just stupid in that regard. Designs that are simpler with strategically placed detail and in general look more pleasing will attract far more talent, too.
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Re: Dragon Ball Movie 20 - Animation Hub

Post by Michsi » Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:31 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Okara wrote:
Vegeta_Sama wrote: I'm sure there's people who can explain it better than be, but in short: stiff and bad designs.
I thought the character designs in BOG and ROF were a lot better than Toriyama’s modern, lazier designs. I don’t get what the problem is in that regard.
They're not better for being 'less lazy' if they require ill-placed effort. They're just stupid in that regard. Designs that are simpler with strategically placed detail and in general look more pleasing will attract far more talent, too.

I suppose OPM was a bit of an oddity in that regard. Design were pretty detail heavy, but they still went all out with the animation.

I greatly appreciate what Yamamuro did for Z, I liked his art back then, but I agree that his current style leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to modern DB. However, I do think it's a bit unfair how his name has become somewhat of a blanket term for everything that went wrong with Super.

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Re: Dragon Ball Movie 20 - Animation Hub

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:03 pm

Michsi wrote:
JulieYBM wrote:
Okara wrote: I thought the character designs in BOG and ROF were a lot better than Toriyama’s modern, lazier designs. I don’t get what the problem is in that regard.
They're not better for being 'less lazy' if they require ill-placed effort. They're just stupid in that regard. Designs that are simpler with strategically placed detail and in general look more pleasing will attract far more talent, too.

I suppose OPM was a bit of an oddity in that regard. Design were pretty detail heavy, but they still went all out with the animation.

I greatly appreciate what Yamamuro did for Z, I liked his art back then, but I agree that his current style leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to modern DB. However, I do think it's a bit unfair how his name has become somewhat of a blanket term for everything that went wrong with Super.
One-Punch Man had not only a longer production schedule (I think cuts were finished for Episode #1 almost a year before it aired?) but a much higher number of talented key animators and less strict when it came to being on model. Yamamuro was always very strict about being on model, especially for 'important' episodes and scenes. One-Punch Man just let animators do the big fights however they pleased and if need be Kubota would correct things as the chief animation supervisor. It also helps that talented animators like Kubota as an animator, as opposed to basically nobody going out of their way to talk about how they like Yamamuro.
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Re: Dragon Ball Movie 20 - Animation Hub

Post by blain218 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:12 pm

Okara wrote:
Vegeta_Sama wrote:
Bulma's Foot Masseur wrote:Why does everyone hate Yamamuro again? What crimes is he responsible for specifically?
I'm sure there's people who can explain it better than be, but in short: stiff and bad designs.
I thought the character designs in BOG and ROF were a lot better than Toriyama’s modern, lazier designs. I don’t get what the problem is in that regard.
The designs of both modern Yamamuro and modern Toriyama (with a few good exceptions like Shallot and A21) suck. Its funny how a freelance artist (Yuya Takahashi) can make better verisons of your own artstyle than you in your prime lmao.

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Re: Dragon Ball Movie 20 - Animation Hub

Post by Okara » Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:17 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Okara wrote:
Vegeta_Sama wrote: I'm sure there's people who can explain it better than be, but in short: stiff and bad designs.
I thought the character designs in BOG and ROF were a lot better than Toriyama’s modern, lazier designs. I don’t get what the problem is in that regard.
They're not better for being 'less lazy' if they require ill-placed effort. They're just stupid in that regard. Designs that are simpler with strategically placed detail and in general look more pleasing will attract far more talent, too.
If I’m not mistaken, this was all done by Toriyama
Image
Image
This is nowhere near as good as the designs they used in the actual movies. His modern style looks lazy and unappealing, not mention rushed sometimes, as you can see with Vegeta in the second image. If that was the style used in the movie, people would be complaining because they look silly and less detailed. So I don’t get why this Yamamura guy seems to be getting such visceral hate for his designs in BOG and ROF. Toriyama’s modern designs are worse, yet most people act like he still puts maximum effort into his work.

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Re: Dragon Ball Movie 20 - Animation Hub

Post by emperior » Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:03 pm

Okara wrote:
JulieYBM wrote:
Okara wrote: I thought the character designs in BOG and ROF were a lot better than Toriyama’s modern, lazier designs. I don’t get what the problem is in that regard.
They're not better for being 'less lazy' if they require ill-placed effort. They're just stupid in that regard. Designs that are simpler with strategically placed detail and in general look more pleasing will attract far more talent, too.
If I’m not mistaken, this was all done by Toriyama
Image
Image
This is nowhere near as good as the designs they used in the actual movies. His modern style looks lazy and unappealing, not mention rushed sometimes, as you can see with Vegeta in the second image. If that was the style used in the movie, people would be complaining because they look silly and less detailed. So I don’t get why this Yamamura guy seems to be getting such visceral hate for his designs in BOG and ROF. Toriyama’s modern designs are worse, yet most people act like he still puts maximum effort into his work.
I don't even like the style Toriyama used in those BoG drawings but those designs are actually better than the ones Yamamuro came up with, both in terms of look and in terms of how animation-friendly they are. In that case Yamamuro adopted the bad chibi-ness of the designs and filled them with details and made a stiff copy of them. So yeah, BoG would have looked better, in my opinion, if they actually used Toriyama's style at the time, even if it was bad and very unusual from what people expected out of animated Dragon Ball.
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Re: Dragon Ball Movie 20 - Animation Hub

Post by Vegeta_Sama » Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:56 pm

Okara wrote:
JulieYBM wrote:
Okara wrote: I thought the character designs in BOG and ROF were a lot better than Toriyama’s modern, lazier designs. I don’t get what the problem is in that regard.
They're not better for being 'less lazy' if they require ill-placed effort. They're just stupid in that regard. Designs that are simpler with strategically placed detail and in general look more pleasing will attract far more talent, too.
If I’m not mistaken, this was all done by Toriyama
Image
Image
This is nowhere near as good as the designs they used in the actual movies. His modern style looks lazy and unappealing, not mention rushed sometimes, as you can see with Vegeta in the second image. If that was the style used in the movie, people would be complaining because they look silly and less detailed. So I don’t get why this Yamamura guy seems to be getting such visceral hate for his designs in BOG and ROF. Toriyama’s modern designs are worse, yet most people act like he still puts maximum effort into his work.
Nobody is praising these designs man. If you check out my thread where I collected all of Toriyama's designs for Super, you'll see that a lot of people don't like his new stuff.
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Re: Dragon Ball Movie 20 - Animation Hub

Post by majinwarman » Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:46 pm

Vegeta_Sama wrote:
Okara wrote:
JulieYBM wrote:
They're not better for being 'less lazy' if they require ill-placed effort. They're just stupid in that regard. Designs that are simpler with strategically placed detail and in general look more pleasing will attract far more talent, too.
If I’m not mistaken, this was all done by Toriyama
Image
Image
This is nowhere near as good as the designs they used in the actual movies. His modern style looks lazy and unappealing, not mention rushed sometimes, as you can see with Vegeta in the second image. If that was the style used in the movie, people would be complaining because they look silly and less detailed. So I don’t get why this Yamamura guy seems to be getting such visceral hate for his designs in BOG and ROF. Toriyama’s modern designs are worse, yet most people act like he still puts maximum effort into his work.
Nobody is praising these designs man. If you check out my thread where I collected all of Toriyama's designs for Super, you'll see that a lot of people don't like his new stuff.
My opinion is that it's not good nor bad. It's just there.
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