"Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by NormalHero » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:10 pm

As an animation student there is a thing that i can't undestand about the animation in this movie.
Animation is supposed to do the illusion of life, and when the style changes in the same movie/episode, the illusion in the human brain is interrupted.
In a tv series I can giustify the changements and the bad quality (with a lot of style's changements in the same episode) because the time production and the low budget...
but i can't really giustify in a big cinematic production.
Every animator is called to stay as possible on the model sheet that the character designer give to him. Takahashi (for example) is really good, i love his style, but is totally out of model..

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by Chuquita » Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:04 pm

Maybe the lack of visual cohesion is a combination of reacting against the previous regime of Yamamuro and a way to test different styles to see what the audiences like so they have a clearer idea when they return to a weekly tv series.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by Ajay » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:34 pm

The consistency aspect is definitely something that's been on my mind.

Particularly in anime, it's very common to let highly idiosyncratic animators go uncorrected because they're different. When something changes, you're absolutely right, the audience does notice, and that's used for effect in many cases. When someone like Shida or Tate kicks off their scene, you instantly know it's them, and you know something great is coming. That can be really damn effective if you want to make a fight or particular moment feel special and memorable.

I often criticised Yamamuro for over-correcting since he'd regularly entirely remove animators' traits, or erase these special moments in favour of one homogeneous blob of style. At the same time, supervisory roles and model sheets exist for a reason. There has to be visual consistency in a movie or it'll just feel like a series of disconnected scenes. Nobody wants that!

With this new movie, I'm very on the fence about what we've seen as far as stylistic consistency goes. The vast majority of content has been perfectly in-line with Shintani's sheets; the downtime sections, almost all of the recent trailer, Freeza vs Broli, etc. The only bits that stood out were these Takahashi scenes in the snowy area. I was totally okay with that idea - if they want to really make the content there feel special, then leaving Takahashi alone is fine. However, the most recent trailer showcased that same snowy area but with a Goku scene from Ryo Onishi in there, and having it cut from that to a detailed Takahashi Vegeta was incredibly distracting.

In reality, it's not likely to ever play out like that in the film. By the looks of things, he's animating the start of the fight, and the Vegeta-centric battle that follows, including his Super Saiyan God transformation. Kicking off the battle and debuting a new transformation in an eyecatching stylistic deviation is 100% okay with me. It'll stand out, and for good reason! However, if it doesn't play out as linearly as that, and we cut from the more Shintani-esque Ryo Onishi scenes back and forth with Takahashi's work, then that's going to be an issue.

Yes, Shintani's designs allow these deviations to exist in the first place in a way that doesn't totally break the sheets, but you still have to know when and where to allow that to happen.

I'm sure Shintani and Nagamine are smart enough to avoid jarring style shifts, but the fact that this is Shintani's first gig as a supervisor does put a few doubts in my mind. If he's lacking the confidence to make tough decisions like that, then we may well be sticking with wild style changes for no rhyme or reason.

As someone who knows animators well enough to see stylistic changes between scenes most of the time anyway, and often wishes he could turn that shit off and just get immersed in the film, I assure you, you don't want that.

Though at the same time... as someone who's gonna have to pick this film apart as far who did what, I'm secretly kinda welcoming obvious shifts. :lol:
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by Noah » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:21 am

Is there any chance of first form Freeza design to be corrected on the actual movie? Also we will get a third trailer?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by supersaiyanZero » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:19 pm

If Takahashi was soley animating a Dragonball movie...just shut up and take my money.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:33 pm

The Takahashi bit is likely taking place before Oonishi Ryou's bit. Obviously the fight is too long for Takahashi to oversee every single scene on the snowy battlefield so it's not surprising that Oonishi Ryou would take over a later scene. The trailer is simply edited out of order. We know for sure that Vegeta has a separate fight with Broli.

Animation is great because of inconsistency and personal styles, so I'm glad that this movie is placing that at the forefront.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by Super Saiyan Swagger » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:03 pm

Noah wrote:Is there any chance of first form Freeza design to be corrected on the actual movie? Also we will get a third trailer?
I doubt there'll be any corrections with Freeza since there isn't really anything to correct. We'll be getting a third trailer in late November during Jump Anime Festa.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by Noah » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:05 pm

Super Saiyan Swagger wrote:I doubt there'll be any corrections with Freeza since there isn't really anything to correct.
Are you sure?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by Ajay » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:21 pm

Noah wrote:
Super Saiyan Swagger wrote:I doubt there'll be any corrections with Freeza since there isn't really anything to correct.
Are you sure?
Yes. We see under his armour multiple times throughout, and there's no sign of shoulder plates. Seems clear we're supposed to believe that's the beginning of the transformation, rather than a simple armour shed.


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Even if that weren't the case, there's still nothing to correct since this is obviously an intentional design decision, and not an error.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by TheOne » Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:08 am

Noah wrote:Is there any chance of first form Freeza design to be corrected on the actual movie? Also we will get a third trailer?
Somebody stated something that’s been on my mind and has grown on me. At first I was bugged by them removing Freeza's original form, but then someone mentioned that they were probably going for a younger Frieza look. Having king cold there really makes it seem as if he’s just a spoiled little child enslaving an entire race. But I also like the idea of them keeping Frieza the way he use to look since he doesn’t have to look young/old like everyone else since he’s an alien.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by JazzMazz » Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:31 am

JulieYBM wrote:The Takahashi bit is likely taking place before Oonishi Ryou's bit. Obviously the fight is too long for Takahashi to oversee every single scene on the snowy battlefield so it's not surprising that Oonishi Ryou would take over a later scene. The trailer is simply edited out of order. We know for sure that Vegeta has a separate fight with Broli.

Animation is great because of inconsistency and personal styles, so I'm glad that this movie is placing that at the forefront.
It seems they're really adamant about having Takahashi handle Broly landing on Earth, as well as what seems to be the entire fight with Vegeta.

Wonder if the movie will similarly be divided among animation supervisors(Based on the trailer Tsuji is handling the flashbacks on planet Vegeta, and Shintani seems to be primarily focused on slice of life character scenes based the interview).

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by Noah » Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:20 pm

Ajay wrote:Yes. We see under his armour multiple times throughout, and there's no sign of shoulder plates. Seems clear we're supposed to believe that's the beginning of the transformation, rather than a simple armour shed. Even if that weren't the case, there's still nothing to correct since this is obviously an intentional design decision, and not an error.
Would you say Toyotaro was mistaken too?
That seems much like a fan theory to cover this error, I could take if they explain that was intended to give Freeza a younger look though nothing making much sense anyway.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by Ajay » Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:00 pm

Noah wrote:Would you say Toyotaro was mistaken too?
That seems much like a fan theory to cover this error, I could take if they explain that was intended to give Freeza a younger look though nothing making much sense anyway.
He certainly might have been. Choosing to draw it like that clearly flies in the face of what Toriyama's ever done, even in instances post-transformation debut where he knew full-well what existed under there.

Yamamuro drew him without armour in his F storyboard, and it followed that design, but they decided to keep the armour on in the end, perhaps due to the uncertainty of it.

There's really no objective answer to this. It's not 100% a mistake nor is it 100% a change. This could well be what Toriyama had in mind all along, and people have just been misinterpreting it.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by Bergamo » Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:59 pm

Noah wrote:
Ajay wrote:Yes. We see under his armour multiple times throughout, and there's no sign of shoulder plates. Seems clear we're supposed to believe that's the beginning of the transformation, rather than a simple armour shed. Even if that weren't the case, there's still nothing to correct since this is obviously an intentional design decision, and not an error.
Would you say Toyotaro was mistaken too?
That seems much like a fan theory to cover this error, I could take if they explain that was intended to give Freeza a younger look though nothing making much sense anyway.
I think Toyotaro was trying to be a super fan and get every obscure detail right, but he was mistaken in this case. It wouldn't surprise me.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:03 am

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by FortuneSSJ » Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:33 pm

Talking about the line filter, they have to be careful to avoid situations like these:

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Vegeta's left eye looks bigger than his right eye because of that. Some errors like this happened in the first episodes of Universe Survival arc too.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by JazzMazz » Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:15 am

FortuneSSJ wrote:Talking about the line filter, they have to be careful to avoid situations like these:

Image

Vegeta's left eye looks bigger than his right eye because of that. Some errors like this happened in the first episodes of Universe Survival arc too.
Yeah, the line filter is never going to be perfect(wasn't for Super either), but I think it definitely does wonders in livening up the line art, and giving it some real character in every scene.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:27 am

Yamamuro's take on the movie.....

https://youtu.be/cSIqffYOVr4

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by Amir » Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:28 am

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:Yamamuro's take on the movie.....

https://youtu.be/cSIqffYOVr4
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by cuartas » Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:56 am

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:Yamamuro's take on the movie.....

https://youtu.be/cSIqffYOVr4
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