"Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by FortuneSSJ » Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:28 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:Yamamuro's take on the movie.....

https://youtu.be/cSIqffYOVr4
The highlights will always be the worst thing about Yamamuro's current style, but seems like he will never understand that skins don't shine like that.
A world without Dragon Ball is just meh.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by supersaiyanZero » Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:15 pm

FortuneSSJ wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:Yamamuro's take on the movie.....

https://youtu.be/cSIqffYOVr4
The highlights will always be the worst thing about Yamamuro's current style, but seems like he will never understand that skins don't shine like that.
keep this man away from anything dragonball.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by DainIronfoot » Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:18 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:Yamamuro's take on the movie.....

https://youtu.be/cSIqffYOVr4
Besides an odd shot of Broly's stronger form, I think it looks great, especially Broly's base form.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by Super Saiyan Swagger » Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:43 am

Here's some nice promo art of Goku and Vegeta that I don't think we've seen before...
ImageImage

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by Rakurai » Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:54 pm

Shaddy wrote: But in short, time passed and he changed. The shiny characters, squared-off eyes, big noses and rigid bodies and hair that you see nowadays is all due to his newer character designs being...well, weird. You can see it happening as early as his GT work (it was happening to Nakatsuru too). Multiple layers of shading, stiff posing, big noses, wide faces and too many lines in general. I'm sure it was a nightmare for people to animate without it collapsing entirely (actually, if the Super designs were simpler, episodes 5 and 25 might not have looked that bad). As a supervisor he's also known for excessively correcting other animators' work to the point where Shida or Takahashi (as examples with very distinct styles) are unrecognizable.
I generally cite Yo! Son Goku Returns as the product that proved Yamamuro's designs could still work in modern DB. The lighter colors were very well for the tone of the OVA, the art and animation looked classic but still beautiful. That was 10 years ago, but if he could go back to using those colors and use less lines in general then I think he could make his work more appreciated again.
DainIronfoot wrote:
Just to throw in a few points of add on etc. Yamamuro basically has been the Character Designer/Supervising director of animation for a while. His job involves A LOT of work including promotional material, designs, DB Heroes, corrections etc. It's not that simple at all but Yamamuro is able to draw DB fast and well. Yamamuro's approach to correcting has its flaws and its benefits. I disagree that his corrections made Takahashi/Shida unrecognizable, for me they were easily identified. However, Yamamuro's corrections do make it seem like the work is done by a single animator at times. This can also be a good thing though, when episodes have some weaker animators on board, these corrections bring about a polished and consistent look.

Also, as some may not know, Yamamuro was responsible for most of the transformation scenes we saw in Super. It's usually why those specific scenes were pretty polished. Another fun fact is that the design of Ultra Instinct Omen was from Yamamuro as well (and looks great). In any event, I for one still love his art style, even though I don't think nothing will ever compare to his work on Z. Many people don't like his modern approach and some have valid criticisms of it while others have a habit of just bashing him for no logical reason. However, since this new movie brings Shintani into Yamamuro's previous role, some people are ecstatic about a new fresh look for the series. I for one am not sold on the new look, but respect the creative new approach (and it's not going to stop me from supporting the film).

Anyways, a topic like this is better suited for the animation thread, hope this thread doesn't get derailed much further.

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I may be one of those few who was simply put off by really dull design of UI Omen & UI by Yamamuro (posters & character design sheet wise). Bigass nose, round, square eyes, widely spaced scratches. Lack of sharp features and proper shading.

Incidentally, I feel like Toyotaro has also been dropping the ball with UI's design with the latest chapter, and he is slowly starting to become the Yamamuro of DB manga. His early sketches for the V-Jump display were perfect but now he's going back to a more anime look.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by Luso Saiyan » Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:01 pm

Ajay wrote:There's really no objective answer to this. It's not 100% a mistake nor is it 100% a change. This could well be what Toriyama had in mind all along, and people have just been misinterpreting it.
We might even be looking at a young Freeza, who doesn't necessarily has to look like the way we've seen him before.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by HeroR » Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:07 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:Yamamuro's take on the movie.....

https://youtu.be/cSIqffYOVr4
It's weird that posts like this is almost always frame with the mindset of 'look how bad Yamamuro's style' is and here I am personally liking it. *shrug*
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Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by Shaddy » Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:51 pm

Rakurai wrote:I generally cite Yo! Son Goku Returns as the product that proved Yamamuro's designs could still work in modern DB. The lighter colors were very well for the tone of the OVA, the art and animation looked classic but still beautiful. That was 10 years ago, but if he could go back to using those colors and use less lines in general then I think he could make his work more appreciated again.
I don't necessarily disagree with that (though I still think the fabric is stiff and the expressions aren't exaggerated enough) but the problem is that Yamamuro himself isn't seemingly capable of understanding what made his own designs good. He's flip-flopped about with various versions of Goku since Kai, some which share problems and others which are exclusive to one design and not another without any logical thread connecting them. If he'd simply migrated to one specific rigid set of problems then I'd much easier say he's just been phoning it in and needs to get back on his game, but the fact that Heroes Goku has a much better design than Super Goku for example shows that he doesn't seem to actually know he's doing the things he's doing. It's a lot easier assess a straight downward slope than a rocky mountain range. I fully believe that he's capable of improving, but there's no reliable certainty that it'd stay that way and we wouldn't just end up with the same problems again or new ones.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by jjgp1112 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:56 pm

Rakurai wrote:
I generally cite Yo! Son Goku Returns as the product that proved Yamamuro's designs could still work in modern DB. The lighter colors were very well for the tone of the OVA, the art and animation looked classic but still beautiful. That was 10 years ago, but if he could go back to using those colors and use less lines in general then I think he could make his work more appreciated again.
It should be noted that most of the character designs from Yo Son Goku were actually just recycled from the original series. I think only Goku got an actual new design. Everything else were recolors. And I think the color scheme was more of a Shueisha decision, because the One Piece OVA from that same Jump Anime Tour had the same coloring style as well.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by TheOne » Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:46 am

supersaiyanZero wrote:
FortuneSSJ wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:Yamamuro's take on the movie.....

https://youtu.be/cSIqffYOVr4
The highlights will always be the worst thing about Yamamuro's current style, but seems like he will never understand that skins don't shine like that.
keep this man away from anything dragonball.
I’m so glad guys like you all have no say in the production of these videos. This looks perfectly fine.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by Shaddy » Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:00 am

Anywhere from "slightly mediocre" to "perfectly fine" describes most of what Yamamuro has done for the past fifteen years. Dragon Ball should look exceptional.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by TheOne » Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:34 am

Shaddy wrote:Anywhere from "slightly mediocre" to "perfectly fine" describes most of what Yamamuro has done for the past fifteen years. Dragon Ball should look exceptional.
It should, but instead we got the garbage animation all throughout Supers run.

The clip posted above looked great compared to 97% of what we’ve seen in the series. I don’t care if it’s just a clip and easier to make. I expect every episode to have that same quality or close to it. Even if the episodes come out once every two weeks.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by Shaddy » Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:53 am

How exactly is Super's animation all "garbage" when this, using the same design sense and with far less actual talented animators, is supposedly "great"? They look exactly the same. That's why people don't like it.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by TheOne » Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:56 am

Shaddy wrote:How exactly is Super's animation all "garbage" when this, using the same design sense and with far less actual talented animators, is supposedly "great"?
If you don’t see how there has been terrible animation throughout the entire series, then I don’t know what to tell you. There have been so many times I’ve watched an episode and cringed at the still frames looking at deformed faces.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:24 am

TheOne wrote:
Shaddy wrote:How exactly is Super's animation all "garbage" when this, using the same design sense and with far less actual talented animators, is supposedly "great"?
If you don’t see how there has been terrible animation throughout the entire series, then I don’t know what to tell you. There have been so many times I’ve watched an episode and cringed at the still frames looking at deformed faces.
It's only really a few episodes in the first 1/3 of Super where the animation was truly "garbage".

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by Rakurai » Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:24 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:
Rakurai wrote:
I generally cite Yo! Son Goku Returns as the product that proved Yamamuro's designs could still work in modern DB. The lighter colors were very well for the tone of the OVA, the art and animation looked classic but still beautiful. That was 10 years ago, but if he could go back to using those colors and use less lines in general then I think he could make his work more appreciated again.
It should be noted that most of the character designs from Yo Son Goku were actually just recycled from the original series. I think only Goku got an actual new design. Everything else were recolors. And I think the color scheme was more of a Shueisha decision, because the One Piece OVA from that same Jump Anime Tour had the same coloring style as well.
I mean... all character designs from Super are also recycled from the original series, no? It's Yamamuro.

Also I disagree with the coloring scheme. The Romance Dawn OVA had the same coloring scheme as the One Piece anime during that time, nothing remarkable. Meanwhile Son Goku Returns had a palette that was more vibrant than One Piece's, just look at Goku's or Vegeta's skin tone compared to Luffy's.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by Shaddy » Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:55 pm

If you don’t see how there has been terrible animation throughout the entire series, then I don’t know what to tell you. There have been so many times I’ve watched an episode and cringed at the still frames looking at deformed faces.

Okay, between this and the Super versus GT thread I'm getting real fucking tired of people making statements and then acting like I should just take their word as correct and proven fact. Saying "well, ju- BECAUSE IT IS THOUGH, NOT MY JOB TO EDUCATE YOU" isn't an argument, it's a fallacy.
Rakurai wrote: I mean... all character designs from Super are also recycled from the original series, no? It's Yamamuro.
Not so, actually. It's Yamamuro, but it's Yamamuro twenty years later drawing new designs of the same characters. That's why the faces are wider, the eyes squared off, the noses bigger and simpler, the hair and skin shiny, and all of the other things that make characters in Super/Heroes/etc not look the way they did in the Z era.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by Rakurai » Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:13 pm

Shaddy wrote:
If you don’t see how there has been terrible animation throughout the entire series, then I don’t know what to tell you. There have been so many times I’ve watched an episode and cringed at the still frames looking at deformed faces.

Okay, between this and the Super versus GT thread I'm getting real fucking tired of people making statements and then acting like I should just take their word as correct and proven fact. Saying "well, ju- BECAUSE IT IS THOUGH, NOT MY JOB TO EDUCATE YOU" isn't an argument, it's a fallacy.
Rakurai wrote: I mean... all character designs from Super are also recycled from the original series, no? It's Yamamuro.
Not so, actually. It's Yamamuro, but it's Yamamuro twenty years later drawing new designs of the same characters. That's why the faces are wider, the eyes squared off, the noses bigger and simpler, the hair and skin shiny, and all of the other things that make characters in Super/Heroes/etc not look the way they did in the Z era.
In the end, he was credited as character designer in the OVA and so I assume that the characters were based after his model and color palette at the time, before he delved off into his unpopular models for BoG. That's all I really meant.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by jjgp1112 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:55 pm

Rakurai wrote:
jjgp1112 wrote:
Rakurai wrote:
I generally cite Yo! Son Goku Returns as the product that proved Yamamuro's designs could still work in modern DB. The lighter colors were very well for the tone of the OVA, the art and animation looked classic but still beautiful. That was 10 years ago, but if he could go back to using those colors and use less lines in general then I think he could make his work more appreciated again.
It should be noted that most of the character designs from Yo Son Goku were actually just recycled from the original series. I think only Goku got an actual new design. Everything else were recolors. And I think the color scheme was more of a Shueisha decision, because the One Piece OVA from that same Jump Anime Tour had the same coloring style as well.
I mean... all character designs from Super are also recycled from the original series, no? It's Yamamuro.

Also I disagree with the coloring scheme. The Romance Dawn OVA had the same coloring scheme as the One Piece anime during that time, nothing remarkable. Meanwhile Son Goku Returns had a palette that was more vibrant than One Piece's, just look at Goku's or Vegeta's skin tone compared to Luffy's.
No, I mean the designs were literally just lifted straight from the original series with no alterations aside from color schemes. For Super and the movies, Yamamuro drew new designs. I won't link to it since Kanzenshuu frowns on scans, but there's a flickr account with scans of all of the original series model sheets as well as the Jump Specials, and the Jump special sheets were all just copy/pastes of the Z sheets.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by Shaddy » Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:58 pm

Rakurai wrote:In the end, he was credited as character designer in the OVA and so I assume that the characters were based after his model and color palette at the time, before he delved off into his unpopular models for BoG. That's all I really meant.
Well yeah, for the special all the models except Goku were reused from Z. But you said Super, where they're reused from Battle of Gods and RoF (which had their own, brand new designs 20 years later, which is why they look really bad).
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