No, it's clear that the writers wrote that scene for the sake of fanservice to Broly fans without any any regard for powerscaling. No mention of Goku testing Kale or holding back at all, especially when he goes SSG like four episodes later to 'save stamina.' Poorly written narrative that was swept underneath the rug later on.
Which is why there is a weakness to the forms, which the manga used to balance out the battles while the anime did the exact opposite and inflated powers to match it, including 17 and Gohan. You are also detracting from my original point, which is that SSG/SSB still feel like something worth a damn in the manga as opposed to the anime where SSB is used for almost everything, from Krillin to baseball to dealing with ToP fodder. You can prefer whichever one you want but it's quite clear that the anime turned the god forms into something of a joke by the end of its run.
If you want to be delusional and ignore blatant dialogue of Goku holding back with Kale then that's your problem.
And no, SSG/SSB don't feel any stronger in the manga because all the villains are made to be fodder compared to their anime versions. That doesn't the forms look impressive at all if Toyotaro wont give them any hard earned wins with them. Whereas in the anime it was used to beat Black in his prime (Vegeta), take down Aniraza, beat Hit in a rematch (Goku) and beat Golden Freeza one-on-one (Goku), all of which was portrayed as a hard win. The manga version Hit vs Goku made it clear that Goku could have just stomped Hit immediately if he just went Blue right away. That's cheap as hell.
Rakurai wrote:Again, I don't care about Freeza nor do I excuse him either. I think it is also stupid that Freeza was brought back and given a unnecessary, shoehorned explanation to become so strong, and I didn't enjoy RoF at all. Usually, new characters have more leeway than old characters who are established to be within the realms of some power tier. However, Freeza's species is an unknown one after all and still given more leeway than 17 where precedent was clearly established. What would you get stronger from, fighting poachers and protecting wild animals on Earth or constantly fighting Earth's last standing Super Saiyan for about 20 years? Again, Toriyama saying 'yeah he just trained' doesn't excuse poor narrative decisions.
Once again you are making the stupid, baseless assumption that 17 did nothing but hunt poachers all day. There is no in-universe reason why 17 or Freeza can't get that strong at all. You are projecting arbitrary limits on the characters that Toriyama himself had never put on them, then whining that your headcanon got debunked
. How is it a problem if Toriyama himself even before Super established that these characters could get that strong with training? You failed to logically explain why its bad writing when it doesn't contradict a thing. Goku and Vegeta get stronger off screen by just training by themselves all the time, why can't others do the same.
Rakurai wrote:You claimed that the people who didn't understand the timeline are stupid. If grown people on the internet couldn't even understand it then it's likely that kids who watch it also didn't get it the first time, if ever. You are calling a substantial part of the fanbase stupid.
Isn't it an obvious fact that large chunks of the American fandom are stupid? I'm mean virtually no one in the Japanese fandom had a problem understanding the timeline stuff in either Z or Super, yet much of the American fandom needs to spoon fed info for every little thing that happens in the show. Isn't that a sign of low IQ?
Rakurai wrote:You seem to have things confused. Homages are not fanservice. Catering to a character excessively or using nostalgia-driven tactics are part of fanservice. But Toyotaro does not rely on such things primarily to move the plot forward. He doesn't need to give Goku a throwback KK form that's been irrelevant since Namek saga. He doesn't need to give Future Trunks a special form to make him relevant. He doesn't need to give weaklings like Krillin or Tien any bones before they're dropped out. He has a narrative that operates within the realms of how the DB universe based on the original manga and its precedents.
fanservice. Fanservice is anything designed to please the audience regardless of any other function used. Most of the callbacks in the manga didn't do anything to move the plot forward at all nor served any purpose but to cater to longtime DB fans. And the manga is FILLED
with blatant pandering to the Vegeta fanboys, there is no way to deny it.
In DB and many other shonen, a character's power determines his/her relevance in the story (unless you're Bulma). KaioKen mixed with Blue was there to give Goku the ability to fight opponents naturally stronger than himself (and its written with a heavy drawback so to argue that its just fanservice is pure bullshit). Blue Evolution was there for Vegeta to break his limits and still be even with Goku (since he's his eternal rival).The Goku Black arc is supposed to be Trunks' story, so by giving him SSJ Rage he gets to play a more active and relevant role in his own arc (as opposed to being sidelined for the Goku and Vegeta show of the manga). The main reason why most of cast gets sidelined in the franchise is because they are simply not powerful enough to make a difference, so by giving these characters power-ups it becomes possible to develop them again.
Giving characters like Krillin and Tien wins isn't about fanservice, its about properly investing and incorporating a character, a problem most of Z had with the humans, that the Buu saga had with the non-saiyans, that GT had with anyone that isn't Goku and that the Super manga has with anyone who isn't Goku or Vegeta. There is no point in bringing Krillin and Tien along if they are not gonna accomplish anything of note in the ToP. The fact that so many people are defending such bad writing from Toyotaro is astounding.
Rakurai wrote:You can talk to Cetra as to why objective standards truly do not exist since he replied to you on that part. But I want to point out that even your criteria, 'expanding lore,' 'screen time for minor cast characters,' 'speculation and wild fan imagination,' are all subjective and random to whatever 'objective' standards you're trying to preach. Your opinion as to why Super is better than GT because xxx is no more objective than me saying GT is better than Super because xxx. I make no attempt to hide the fact that my frustrations with Super anime are based on my perception and analysis of the show, which I am sure aligns with a lot of what other people have said as well. But it seems to me like you're the type to dismiss those criticisms and call them stupid or state some random literary device to try and make yourself sound more convincing.
This is relativist bullshit. If deny that objective standards of quality then you would have to conclude that everything is of equal quality, which is clearly nonsense. Using logic and evidence to debunk bad arguments isn't being subjective.
Just because something is an opinion doesn't mean it can't be scrutinized, because opinions are still truth-claims that can be (dis)proved. And stuff like "'expanding lore,' 'screen time for minor cast characters,' 'speculation and wild fan imagination,'" ARE
objective factors in determining the quality of a story. You don't need to be some literary critic to know that, it just common sense.