Which did it better, GT or Super?

[Sani007]

Super isn't as good as DB and Z because it wasn't made by Toriyama's manga, but it isn't comparable to GT.

[The Patrolman]

The Highest of highs of Super are better than the Highs of Z. think about that.

ToP is the second greatest arc next to Namek arc.

Thats extremely debatable

Not at all. Storytelling, grand spectacle? Epic Transformations.. it has it all.

Storytelling? No

Grand Spectacle? Yeah

Epic Transformation? I mean Ultra Instinct was cool

[sintzu]

GT had some good ideas but overall it fell on its face compared to Super despite its issues. The first and most important thing Super does better than GT is being enjoyable. I tried to rewatch GT recently and couldn't get past the first 20 episodes which is the complete opposite of super where not only did I watch 130 episodes but I want to go back and watch them as whole arcs to see how my views change on them. Second is world building. By introducing a new hierarchy system and the 12 universes, super has given the franchise limitless possibilites for future stories. GT had a similar idea with going across the universe in search of the dragon balls but instead of doing anything meaningfull it just tried to copy the comedy of the first DB arc then just went back to earth and never looked back. Next is character usage, Vegeta, Future Trunks, Piccolo, Gohan and very surprisingly #17 and Freeza are front and center in Super while GT just used Goku. What's funny is the huge difference in how both shows used 17 and Freeza, Super made them new fan favorites while GT just wasted them. Last but least, the villains. Although Baby wasn't a bad villain his underdevelopment and the lackluster others such as the shadow dragons all pale in comparison to the likes of Black and Beerus.

I'll be fair and look at what GT did as there are some good to it as well, first being the art style. I know it's not the most popular but I think it really convays the message that these characters are at the end of their days. GT not having a lot of Ssj transformations is also a plus as I think Super had too many and Ssj4 is a really amazing form. Baby being someone wronged by the Saiyans was a good idea as he could've fought to prevent what happened to his people from happening to others but they never took it that far and he just ended up being another villain. The shadow dragons was a great idea and way to end the story on but they were very rushed.

[Professor Freeza]

Thats extremely debatable

Not at all. Storytelling, grand spectacle? Epic Transformations.. it has it all.

Storytelling? No

Grand Spectacle? Yeah

Epic Transformation? I mean Ultra Instinct was cool

You sure you saw Z and Super?

[sunkensheep]

Definitely Super. It has expanded lore, new interesting characters, but most importantly it gave the chance to shine to characters that in the even in Z were only relegated as background (Krillin confronting his demons and winning with tactics, Muten Roshi demonstrating that experience is greater than brute strength, Bulma being as important as the Z fighters during the Zamasu's Arc and showing her true passion as a scientist, Yamcha gaining the victory to his baseball team even if it was a comedy episode, even Tenshinhan opening his own martial arts school) and deepened psychological traits of the main antagonists, freeing them from their monodimensional role (Vegeta becoming a good father acting more like an "earthling" than Goku, which by contrast has proven to be more of a "Saiyan" than Vegeta, 17 showing to be a skilled fighter and a reliable person and not only a killing machine and above everyone Freeza, which has developed an entirely new scheming and sadistic persona compared to the classical role of "villain who wants to conquer planets" he had until ToP).
These are things that make me feel the characters as well rounded, people that have something to care about and that adapt their personalities to the challenges that they face everyday - not only when it comes to fighting but even in everyday problems.
While in GT all the characters are basically a background for Goku, who does all the work. And I always felt that Trunks was out of character, considering that in GT's timeline he should have had no traumatic past, so there's no need for him to act as shy and insecure as Future Trunks.
Furthermore, many people complain by saying that the first two arcs of Super are retellings, but I always felt that GT was a retelling of tropes that worked in Z (Vegeta being possessed by an enemy, 17 betraying Dr.Gero, Krillin dying because he's weak, etc.), just to be sure that they were doing the right thing, since it worked once.

It's true that GT has its own good things, like SSJ4, the concept of a Tsufurian villain and the ending, but I can't help but feel that they were mainly trying to milk a cow rather than try to tell a good story.

[Cetra]

2 Retellings, 2 Tournaments and one arc that actually interests me?

GT. The ending alone does it.

[emperior]

Super is much, much better than GT and everyone who says otherwise should go back and re-watch GT and see if they can survive through the Black Star DBs arc. Even after that arc, GT was just bland and boring and there isn't a single fight in GT that holds up to Super's fights.

The only positives GT has are:
- The ending, which was very well-done even if it doesn't really fit Dragon Ball
- Piccolo's sacrifice, which was great but ultimately useless
- It had more blood
- Super Saiyan 4 was cool

[Cetra]

Super is much, much better than GT and everyone who says otherwise should go back and re-watch GT and see if they can survive through the Black Star DBs arc. Even after that arc, GT was just bland and boring and there isn't a single fight in GT that holds up to Super's fights.

The only positives GT has are:
- The ending, which was very well-done even if it doesn't really fit Dragon Ball
- Piccolo's sacrifice, which was great but ultimately useless
- It had more blood
- Super Saiyan 4 was cool

Considering the "Black Star" arc is for me the same thing as the Baby arc I love watching it. And yes, I think GT is a lot better. There is only one thing I think is better storywise and that is the Zamasu arc. Overall for "best emotional moments", ending and all I think GT is better and its not even close.

Saturnine, your colossal double standards and replicable behaviour of 99% of the internet is not really helping you getting your point across. Neither are those not so hidden insults of "your are easily impressed". Just so you know, you are already reported, not just for this post but the mere fact that you are doing such things all the time. It is time to see that you can't act like this forever. And yes, I could easily argue you because you are like the entire rest. But like the entire rest you lack readiness for acceptance so it would be a great waste of time. So the mods are better dealing with you.

[Vegeta_Sama]

Definitely Super. I am one of the few ones who absolutely hates GT's ending. To me, it was just Goku abandoning his family and friends AGAIN after beign back for a little bit ,because for some reason he preferes hanging around with fucking Shenron. It was just like Z'sending, just more dramatic for the sake of making you tear up. And Goku just looks like an asshole for leaving once again. At least when he left with Uub, you can headcanon that he visits his family every once in a while with IT, but in GT he just disappeared.

[Saturnine]

It's always been way better than GT. The last arc alone was better than anything GT had. I also don't think there was anything as uninspired as the Black Star Dragon Ball arc or the Super 17 arc.

It's hard to explain, but Super felt like authentic Dragon Ball in a way GT just didn't. It had a similar tone and battles had a similar excitement. GT felt a bit too much like what someone who wasn't Toriyama would make up. It continued the expansion of the universe from being a boy in the woods, to training with the greatest Martial Artist on the planet, to training with a deity, to training with god, to becoming the strongest human, to training in the afterlife, become the strongest in the universe to training with gods who are part of the multiversal hierarchy to facing off against the strongest in the multiverse. It felt like the natural place for Toriyama to take it. Also it did far more to honor the roots of the series. Even though it was very Goku centric, the rest of the cast didn't get left in the dust again. It didn't feel like Goku and Pan with Gohan and Vegeta making a few cameos and blink and you'll miss Kuriren.

This.

GT felt like a glorified Toei theatrical movie with little regard for the tone, feel and intricacies of the original. Don't even get me started on all the stuff like filler and theatrical shoulder patting, enemies of too low status with too high a power, lack of understanding of how the afterlife and halos work, forcedly emotional ending, disproportionate Goku wank and all those hundreds of little things that bothered me. The Baby arc was OK I guess, but overall GT doesn't hold a handle to Super in my opinion. Super just felt right, apart from some easily reconcilable (with some mental gymnastics) power scaling problems.

[emperior]

Super is much, much better than GT and everyone who says otherwise should go back and re-watch GT and see if they can survive through the Black Star DBs arc. Even after that arc, GT was just bland and boring and there isn't a single fight in GT that holds up to Super's fights.

The only positives GT has are:
- The ending, which was very well-done even if it doesn't really fit Dragon Ball
- Piccolo's sacrifice, which was great but ultimately useless
- It had more blood
- Super Saiyan 4 was cool

Considering the "Black Star" arc is for me the same thing as the Baby arc I love watching it. And yes, I think GT is a lot better. There is only one thing I think is better storywise and that is the Zamasu arc. Overall for "best emotional moments", ending and all I think GT is better and its not eve close.

I'm not saying that it's impossible to prefer GT over Super, but my point was that maybe, just maybe, a few people speak of GT off their nostalgia and that they haven't watched it in a long time.
If you prefer GT and you don't even skip the Black Star hunt part of the arc because you genuinely enjoy it, good for you - it means you are actually a real GT fan and that your preference is actually real and not because of some stupid nostalgia, which unfortunately plagues the majority of Dragon Ball's fanbase.

[Saturnine]

2 Retellings, 2 Tournaments and one arc that actually interests me?

GT. The ending alone does it.

Then you're easily impressed. Have you ever stopped for a moment to think about what the hell even happened in that ending? It relied so heavily on stuff that just doesn't happen in real DB that it entirely broke the suspension of disbelief, for me at least:

- Goku ambiguously dies (let's say I believe that, because GT's writers never knew how halos were supposed to work in the first place), which makes him even more resistant to damage than Gogeta was at SSj4? What the hell? You could argue it was the Spirit Bomb that did it, but we know from Goku's usage of it against Freeza that it's not supposed to happen either. This already breaks suspension of disbelief.
- Then he gets revived/revitalized by Shenron, who appears without being summoned and without the sky turning dark (it being pointed out in the show doesn't make it any less bullshit, just so you know)
- Earth's Dragon Balls are portrayed as something way more special than they are supposed to be, particularly since we know of the Namekian ones at that point. Shenron displays agency he shouldn't have - he's there to shut up and grant wishes, not decide that he must take the DBs away. Shenron is a creation of Dende's, and we don't even get a shot of Dende nodding or in any way implying it was his decision - since you know, he's the only one who should be able to decide, being the creator of the fucking things.
- There is an implied connection between Goku and the DBs realized when Shenron has the DBs go into Goku's body. We're led to believe this connection has been there forever, even though all we've got up to that point is Goku having a sentimental affinity for the 4-star DB, since it used to belong to his grandpa. Goku immediately honors Shenron's request to join him, doesn't protest for a second and even mentions he expected it to happen. There was literally no buildup to such a realization in GT (much less the original manga), and we're just supposed to take it. And don't even get me started on fan speculation about Goku's supposedly limitless new power that he got by absorbing the DBs (again, Shenron was killed by King Piccolo years before that, so they're NOT supposed to be such a big deal).
- It's almost implied this has been Goku's destiny since the very beginning, even though we got no clues or hints whatsoever up to that point suggesting he might be special in that way. In fact, Goku is made out to be way more special than he ever was both in the original manga and Super, where he became an actual Super Saiyan God. You know a show wanks someone hard if you get a feeling that he's even more special and divine than actual gods from an alternate portrayal.
- Characters like Vegeta and Piccolo tacitly understand what's about to happen to Goku. No knowledge leading the viewer to understand it has ever been presented, so why would characters have such knowledge, but not the viewers?
- All of the above in no way justifies the sense of finality we get from Goku leaving, built up throughout most of the episode with Goku saying farewell to most of his friends. No justification, no explanation, just an imposed sense of "guess it has to be that way" that's jammed down our throats. Some will take it, many more will rightfully protest it. It's just forced emotional drama, something that from a plot perspective could have been avoided entirely, by simply having Dende take the DBs away, seal them off, destroy them or whatever. It's just like how Piccolo had to die to destroy the BS DB's (BS, how appropriate, haha! ), even though we know from the manga that DBs can be easily destroyed without taking such melodramatic measures.

So yeah, as you can see, the ending of GT relies on way too many contrivances. Even though it was intended to be mysterious, screwing with pre-established rules of the world to that extent, along with the lack of understanding of the comparative importance (or lack thereof) of certain agents (like Shenron and Earth's DBs) creates quite a mess here. With Super's ending on the other hand, we just get a clearly understandable, uplifting, happy end promising more to come. An easy choice for me

[Lujin_16]

The Black Goku Arc alone is more memorable than the whole GT series so i don't understand the comparison here

maybe it's the hate for Super that people have so they always compare Super with GT

[ekrolo2]

Battle of Gods the movie, the one all-around good Z sequel.

[TheMikado]

Supers ending alone has moved me to be completely and utterly disgusted. My biggest complaint has been consistency, lore, and consistent characterization and Super completely destroyed 2 years of build up in one episode.

[Saturnine]

Supers ending alone has moved me to be completely and utterly disgusted. My biggest complaint has been consistency, lore, and consistent characterization and Super completely destroyed 2 years of build up in one episode.

What do you mean specifically? I didn't get any of these vibes.

[TheMikado]

Supers ending alone has moved me to be completely and utterly disgusted. My biggest complaint has been consistency, lore, and consistent characterization and Super completely destroyed 2 years of build up in one episode.

What do you mean specifically? I didn't get any of these vibes.

I explained it in the 131 thread.

[Lord Beerus]

I find GT and Super to both good shows at their own devices, but Super to me is superior entry when comparing the two as I found it more thoroughly and consistently entertaining than GT, even in inconsequential episodes.

For the sake of numbering, I'd give GT a 7/10 and Super a 8.25/10.

[TheMikado]

I find GT and Super to both good shows at their own devices, but Super to me is superior entry when comparing the two as I found it more thoroughly and consistently entertaining than GT, even in inconsequential episodes.

For the sake of numbering, I'd give GT a 7/10 and Super a 8.25/10.

In terms of sheer spectacle I’ll agree with those numbers and Super is more entertaining however from a writing aspect Super annoys and disgusts me. I’ll probably never get past this ending which basically has Zeno being the ultimate threat amount to nothing and worse he’s now on their side.

Part of the reason I like Z and GT so much is the inherit consequences which come along with it.

Goku blows his chance with Raditz and gets himself killed for it.

Piccolo dies abs they have to get the Dragonballs from namekl.

Vegeta takes on Frieza, and Goku doesn’t listen to king Kai and Vegeta gets killed and Krillin dies.

They don’t listen to Trunks warning about the android and Vegeta let’s cell absorb the androids and Goku gives Cell a senzu bean to fight Gohan. All great stuff with Goku being dead for 7 years.

Vegeta gets taken over by Babidi inlgnored shin and released Buu and died for it. Goku lets the kids fight Buu instead of himself and they get absorbed.

In GT they don’t recover the balls in time and earth blows up, the tuffles want revenge against the saiyans in the form of baby. All the villains they keep fighting come back to haunt them, they over use the Dragonballs against old Kaia warning and they turn against them. Goku dies and the Dragonballs are gone for 100 years.

This is all good stuff. So coming from all of this to the constant cope outs of Super is infuriating.

Beerus comes to destroy the world but changes his mind.

Frieza comes for revenge and blows up the planet by Whis can rewind time.

No real consequences for the Champa arc.

The future trunks arc had a decent start with tying it to Gokus power of the gods as Zamasus hatred but the time paradox was dumb and poorly written. I hated the Trunks ending but was hoping that would get resolved properly in a later arc and it was a good consequence for Gokus misuse of the Zeno button. We also go our first glimpse at real consequences for their actions.

This continues in the first half of the recruitment arc and then suddenly disappeared. The tournament ends with a giant “just kidding” about wanting to erase the universe and it leaves you feeling like crap as if nothing was accomplished this entire time.

[Torturephile]

GT was winning until Super got to the middle part of the U7 vs. U6 tournament.