So What Was the Point of the Tournament of Power Arc?

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Re: So What Was the Point of the Tournament of Power Arc?

Post by sintzu » Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:12 pm

Logania wrote:Besides Freeza being alive...
How is that just a "besides" ? him being alive can and will bring huge changes to the lore moving forward. DB as a whole may end up completely changed thanks to him being alive again.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

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Re: So What Was the Point of the Tournament of Power Arc?

Post by Avenant » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:48 pm

Jackalope89 wrote:
Avenant wrote:We're introduced to the first canon antagonist that is extremely powerful and isn't a villain.
Except for, you know, Beerus. And probably others I'm forgetting.
Beerus wasn't really in the same boat as Jiren, as Jiren was the "final boss" so to speak of an entire arc. Beerus' arc pales in comparison and is still yet to be resolved on the versus aspect.
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Re: So What Was the Point of the Tournament of Power Arc?

Post by precita » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:55 pm

In case you guys weren't paying attention, Zeno was going to keep the universes erased if the winner made a selfish wish. So if 17 wished for his boat or anything else, every universe but U7 and the ones that didn't compete would stay gone. Zeno and the other Angels saw that keeping the universes around had merit.

And that's not even counting the character interaction, new forms, new friendships, etc.

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Re: So What Was the Point of the Tournament of Power Arc?

Post by BlueBasilisk » Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:32 pm

precita wrote:In case you guys weren't paying attention, Zeno was going to keep the universes erased if the winner made a selfish wish. So if 17 wished for his boat or anything else, every universe but U7 and the ones that didn't compete would stay gone. Zeno and the other Angels saw that keeping the universes around had merit.

And that's not even counting the character interaction, new forms, new friendships, etc.
If the winner had made a selfish wish, Zeno was going to erase everything.

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Re: So What Was the Point of the Tournament of Power Arc?

Post by PFM18 » Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:02 pm

Jackalope89 wrote:
Avenant wrote:We're introduced to the first canon antagonist that is extremely powerful and isn't a villain.
Except for, you know, Beerus. And probably others I'm forgetting.
I mean Beerus was trying to kill everybody for absolutely no reason. It isnt any different than how Vegeta was a villian. They were introduced as a villian but were ultimately friends of the main cast eventually. Jiren is the first extremely powerful antagonist who isnt a villian. The situation allowed for this to happen because everybody was fighting for their life rather than the cookie cutter "evil vs good" crap.

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Re: So What Was the Point of the Tournament of Power Arc?

Post by Jackalope89 » Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:33 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Jackalope89 wrote:
Avenant wrote:We're introduced to the first canon antagonist that is extremely powerful and isn't a villain.
Except for, you know, Beerus. And probably others I'm forgetting.
I mean Beerus was trying to kill everybody for absolutely no reason. It isnt any different than how Vegeta was a villian. They were introduced as a villian but were ultimately friends of the main cast eventually. Jiren is the first extremely powerful antagonist who isnt a villian. The situation allowed for this to happen because everybody was fighting for their life rather than the cookie cutter "evil vs good" crap.
Beerus' job is to destroy planets and races to maintain balance/improve their universe's standing. Granted he was terrible at it, but it was his job. Not because he was evil, partly because he's pretty petty, but mostly because it is his job.

Beerus was an antagonist, but not a villain.

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Re: So What Was the Point of the Tournament of Power Arc?

Post by Lionel » Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:58 pm

The tangibility of its impact was felt mostly in those who were able to grow in strength and resolve like with the U6 Saiyan girls, Cabba, and U7's Saiyans (barring Gohan). Hearts and ideologies were moved by the actions of Universe 7. I think what was most felt that could have consequences somewhere down the line is Freeza's resurrection like someone else mentioned. Whis' green-light to bring the tyrant back to life has not only endangered the lives of Goku's adopted world but the stability and livelihood of the entire universe as well. It's unthinkable the kind of damage that allowing Freeza to muck about in the universe will cause. One of Zeno's main impulsions for wanting to hang the universes was their relatively low standard of mortal development and evolution; this concern wasn't addressed in any way. We have no reason to think that anything will change with these universes now being allowed to continue existing -- and furthermore, Freeza rebuilding his empire can only lower the ranking of Universe 7 further as the nature of his illicit enterprise encompasses the extermination of planetary populations.

We saw some enjoyable choreographic servicing with some classic faces being allowed to have a bit of fight time. Want to take a guess on whether any long term repercussions will come about through these people being called upon to defend their universe? Yeah, it wouldn't be surprising if all of them regressed back to their hapless incapable selves. Nothing was implied to suggest that Krillin "getting his groove back" or Gohan being retrained by Piccolo would carry over into future DB material. It's a very disappointing possibility but one that I think is the most likely to pan out. Hey, but at least Goku achieved Ultra Instinct for the first time. It's the defining moment of the whole arc. Vegeta also benefited too by acquiring a form that's allowed him to match Goku's Kaioken now. Those two do represent the crux of what defines narrational development in this series after-all, for better or worse.
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Re: So What Was the Point of the Tournament of Power Arc?

Post by PFM18 » Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:28 pm

Jackalope89 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Jackalope89 wrote: Except for, you know, Beerus. And probably others I'm forgetting.
I mean Beerus was trying to kill everybody for absolutely no reason. It isnt any different than how Vegeta was a villian. They were introduced as a villian but were ultimately friends of the main cast eventually. Jiren is the first extremely powerful antagonist who isnt a villian. The situation allowed for this to happen because everybody was fighting for their life rather than the cookie cutter "evil vs good" crap.
Beerus' job is to destroy planets and races to maintain balance/improve their universe's standing. Granted he was terrible at it, but it was his job. Not because he was evil, partly because he's pretty petty, but mostly because it is his job.

Beerus was an antagonist, but not a villain.
At the end of the day he had no regard for the people that live on the planet and had no problem killing every living thing on the planet regardless of whether it is his job. Jiren is truly the first time in which the opponent is not villan-esque and you could even argue he is a hero.(like the rest of the Pride Troopers)

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Re: So What Was the Point of the Tournament of Power Arc?

Post by Bullza » Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:43 pm

We'll see down the line.

People said the same thing for Resurrection F at the time but it pushed the story ahead going forward. It'll be the same here too.

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Re: So What Was the Point of the Tournament of Power Arc?

Post by Doctor. » Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:25 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:To provide an immense expansion of the Dragon Ball cosmos and power hierarchy that would leave the door open for so many potential futures stories.
It closes the door. It gives you the ceiling of all those universes already.

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Re: So What Was the Point of the Tournament of Power Arc?

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:45 am

Doctor. wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:To provide an immense expansion of the Dragon Ball cosmos and power hierarchy that would leave the door open for so many potential futures stories.
It closes the door. It gives you the ceiling of all those universes already.
Any ceiling in Dragon Ball can be casually broken at any given time.

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Re: So What Was the Point of the Tournament of Power Arc?

Post by Doctor. » Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:01 am

Lord Beerus wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:To provide an immense expansion of the Dragon Ball cosmos and power hierarchy that would leave the door open for so many potential futures stories.
It closes the door. It gives you the ceiling of all those universes already.
Any ceiling in Dragon Ball can be casually broken at any given time.
Yes... and strong opponents coming out of nowhere and casually surpassing the previous strongest guy ever for the sake of the plot has always been a problem that everyone has complained about.

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Re: So What Was the Point of the Tournament of Power Arc?

Post by BlueBasilisk » Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:32 am

Lord Beerus wrote: Any ceiling in Dragon Ball can be casually broken at any given time.
The way the recruitments played out left the door open for the possibility that there are other strong fighters out there that the Gods did not know about or did not bring for one reason or another. Rummshi just brought strong looking guys because Gowasu didn't know what to do. Sidra didn't pick anyone besides the Trio de Dangers until the last minute. Universe 11 brought their best Pride Troopers. 6 was the 5 guys from the last tournament, two Saiyans Cabba picked up after consulting the one guy he trusted, two Namekians and a pig with the ability to.

Nobody seems to have considered villains or dead warriors except Universe 7 (and Frost who got grandfathered in), and that doesn't account for people who couldn't or refused to participate. From what we were shown, the gods weren't exactly exhaustive in their search for candidates and hardly seem to know the full extent of what their universes have to offer. Plus the possibility of strong warriors who simply haven't emeged yet. Cell might have been picked over Frieza if the tournament had taken place a few years earlier, or a fully trained Uub a few years later.

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Re: So What Was the Point of the Tournament of Power Arc?

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:57 am

Doctor. wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
Doctor. wrote: It closes the door. It gives you the ceiling of all those universes already.
Any ceiling in Dragon Ball can be casually broken at any given time.
Yes... and strong opponents coming out of nowhere and casually surpassing the previous strongest guy ever for the sake of the plot has always been a problem that everyone has complained about.
Hasn't stopped people from being eager about what the next Dragon Ball story will be, or praising the next Dragon Ball story despite it having that issue.

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Re: So What Was the Point of the Tournament of Power Arc?

Post by Doctor. » Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:59 am

Lord Beerus wrote:Hasn't stopped people from being eager about what the next Dragon Ball story will be, or praising the next Dragon Ball story despite it having that issue.
Sure, but how about Dragon Ball actually plans for once (or merely leaving doors open instead of constantly hyping up the next antagonist(s) as the strongest ever?) instead of constantly writing itself into a corner? The ridiculous escalation problem Dragon Ball has pioneered is not a virtue.

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Re: So What Was the Point of the Tournament of Power Arc?

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:05 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:Hasn't stopped people from being eager about what the next Dragon Ball story will be, or praising the next Dragon Ball story despite it having that issue.
Sure, but how about Dragon Ball actually plans for once (or merely leaving doors open instead of constantly hyping up the next antagonist(s) as the strongest ever?) instead of constantly writing itself into a corner? The ridiculous escalation problem Dragon Ball has pioneered is not a virtue.
I wouldn't mind that. But Dragon Ball being spontaneous as it is with its narrative has often produced some of the best moments in the franchise.

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Re: So What Was the Point of the Tournament of Power Arc?

Post by Doctor. » Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:11 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:Hasn't stopped people from being eager about what the next Dragon Ball story will be, or praising the next Dragon Ball story despite it having that issue.
Sure, but how about Dragon Ball actually plans for once (or merely leaving doors open instead of constantly hyping up the next antagonist(s) as the strongest ever?) instead of constantly writing itself into a corner? The ridiculous escalation problem Dragon Ball has pioneered is not a virtue.
I wouldn't mind that. But Dragon Ball being spontaneous as it is with its narrative has often produced some of the best moments in the franchise.
Sure, back in the day when Toriyama was writing it when at best he'd plan 5 chapters in advance and that was it. At this point, Toriyama and Toei are planning each arc individually, so why not go the extra mile and plan multiple arcs in a row or the entire series? Have some sort of vision.

Dragon Ball is clearly not being written by the seat of Toriyama's pants anymore, so some sort of careful planning would be appreciated.

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Re: So What Was the Point of the Tournament of Power Arc?

Post by Marlowe89 » Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:32 pm

Doctor. wrote:Yes... and strong opponents coming out of nowhere and casually surpassing the previous strongest guy ever for the sake of the plot has always been a problem that everyone has complained about.
To be fair, Super at least cleverly avoided the problem in GT where you had random aliens and robots being Buu tier out of nowhere, instead opting to expand the overarching cosmology of Dragon Ball mythology to Gods of Destruction, Angels, and the multiverse. It wasn't exactly planned from the beginning, but it didn't retroactively squander the significance of previous universal threats in their own arcs either -- Beerus was a God of Destruction who even Frieza feared, Frieza was a mutant born of insane potential, Zamasu was a fairly weak Kaioshin who obtained his power by stealing Goku's body, and Jiren was from another universe altogether and the subject of a rumor that even most gods haven't verified. It's all fairly believable in the context of existing lore.

That being said, I'd agree with you if a new antagonist turns out to be from one of the competing universes in the Tournament of Power; that would just make the whole arc look like a joke compared to what it was hyped up to be. Given the connectivity between Super's individual arcs, it would probably make more sense to have one of the next threats be a natural consequence of 17's wish, which could include the revival of the universes Zeno previously erased or maybe a strong opponent that required Zeno's intervention in the past. As I see it, there are certainly some handy ways around simple escalation.

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Re: So What Was the Point of the Tournament of Power Arc?

Post by irreality » Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:17 pm

To me the point of the tournament of power is how Zeno regained hope in the universe. He seemed fed up with a lot of the universe -- its poor mortal level, probably reflective of a level of apathy on the part of the gods and wrongdoing on the part of ningen. He was ready to destroy it all (mine 4 universes) until he met Goku, and was entertained and hopeful for the first time in a long time. He decided (with the Grand Priest) -- well, if the best representative of these universes can, when everything is on the line, actually act unselfishly, the whole thing is worth saving. If not, let's destroy it all after all.

And #17 did good. Someone unexpected won and didn't make a wish that solely benefitted themselves, or even their universe or their friends, but everyone. And that is a good thing.

It is not a traditional story of "let's all team together to win" or "let's defeat the bad guy that can destroy everything" but, hey, imagine if all us were going to die and had to fight viciously to survive, could we put aside our differences once we won?

I think despite some lulls in the story (not every episode of such a big tournament was a thrill a minute), I thought in general it told an interesting story with interesting characters, and was a refreshing deviation from monster of the week.

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Re: So What Was the Point of the Tournament of Power Arc?

Post by Hawk9211 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:22 am

Doctor. wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
Doctor. wrote: Sure, but how about Dragon Ball actually plans for once (or merely leaving doors open instead of constantly hyping up the next antagonist(s) as the strongest ever?) instead of constantly writing itself into a corner? The ridiculous escalation problem Dragon Ball has pioneered is not a virtue.
I wouldn't mind that. But Dragon Ball being spontaneous as it is with its narrative has often produced some of the best moments in the franchise.
Sure, back in the day when Toriyama was writing it when at best he'd plan 5 chapters in advance and that was it. At this point, Toriyama and Toei are planning each arc individually, so why not go the extra mile and plan multiple arcs in a row or the entire series? Have some sort of vision.

Dragon Ball is clearly not being written by the seat of Toriyama's pants anymore, so some sort of careful planning would be appreciated.
To be fair,they tried to salvage it by saying that the time was too short and even gods don't know everything.There still 4 universes and possibly the 6 universes.
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