Thoughts on Super Saiyan Blue Evolution (Vegeta's new transformation)

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Re: Thoughts on Super Saiyan Blue Evolution (Vegeta's new transformation)

Post by ZeroNeonix » Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:52 pm

Eh. I like the idea of Vegeta having a transformation of his own. What I don't like is the implementation and design. He transforms to fight Jiren, and he gets beaten. Then Toppo transforms to rise to HIS level. We never get a badass moment from him to make this new form feel powerful. Super has had this problem with transformations from the beginning. Transformations just appear and don't leave much impact.

Think about transformations were handled in Z. Vegeta hypes up this Super Saiyan legend, Frieza kills Krillin, and Goku transforms out of anger. He beats the crap out of Frieza, showing just how much he's grown in power. Then Frieza unleashes his 100% Power, after it was already established that he was using only 10% power earlier in the arc. That way there's suspense, but the transformation still feels significantly more powerful than the previous form.

Similar thing with the Cell arc. Vegeta foreshadows a level above Super Saiyan. He steps outside the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, and Goku warns him about Cell's power boost after absorbing 17. He says that Vegeta would have to be ten times stronger than before, and Vegeta gives a confident laugh. You immediately know he's got something up his sleeve. He shows up, beats the crap out of Semiperfect Cell with his Ascended Super Saiyan form (or Super Saiyan Mark 2, if you prefer), but he allows Cell to absorb 18. Cell becomes more power than Vegeta. It's a similar pattern to the Frieza arc. There are stepping stones to power.

Compare that with Super's transformations, particularly the anime only ones. When they appear, they don't feel powerful. They feel on par with the powers of the others around them, or weaker. Super Saiyan Rage just allows Trunks to catch up to Goku and Vegeta. Super Saiyan Blue Evolution just allows Vegeta to catch up with Goku's SSBKK form. They never have the upper hand, so there's no sense of power growth.

Then there's design. Evolution has kind of a weird and awkward looking design. It's like every time I look at it, he looks different. There's just something off about it. It also shares the problem Super Saiyan 2 has. It's hard to tell the difference between the two. He changes shades, has a sparklier aura, and has dark blue pupils. His muscles also seem bigger like with Ascended Super Saiyan, but that seems inconsistent. I dunno, I think if they'd have just gone with another color, like violet or green, it would have helped it stand out more.

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Re: Thoughts on Super Saiyan Blue Evolution (Vegeta's new transformation)

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:23 pm

ZeroNeonix wrote:Compare that with Super's transformations, particularly the anime only ones. When they appear, they don't feel powerful. They feel on par with the powers of the others around them, or weaker. Super Saiyan Rage just allows Trunks to catch up to Goku and Vegeta. Super Saiyan Blue Evolution just allows Vegeta to catch up with Goku's SSBKK form. They never have the upper hand, so there's no sense of power growth.
I think as far as Super exclusive transformations go Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken, Ultra Instinct and Super Saiyan Rose were handled very well. It's only Super Saiyan Rage that I feel was quite mishandled. And Super Saiyan Blue Evolution reminds me a lot of Super Saiyan 3 in the sense that it was more or less thrown in because the plot needed to last longer, and their aesthetics leave a lot to be desired. Ironically, Super Saiyan Blue Evolution had more of an explanation behind it and actually made more of a factor in battle, even though its original intended use was left unfulfilled.

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Re: Thoughts on Super Saiyan Blue Evolution (Vegeta's new transformation)

Post by majinwarman » Sat Mar 31, 2018 4:30 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
ZeroNeonix wrote:Compare that with Super's transformations, particularly the anime only ones. When they appear, they don't feel powerful. They feel on par with the powers of the others around them, or weaker. Super Saiyan Rage just allows Trunks to catch up to Goku and Vegeta. Super Saiyan Blue Evolution just allows Vegeta to catch up with Goku's SSBKK form. They never have the upper hand, so there's no sense of power growth.
I think as far as Super exclusive transformations go Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken, Ultra Instinct and Super Saiyan Rose were handled very well. It's only Super Saiyan Rage that I feel was quite mishandled. And Super Saiyan Blue Evolution reminds me a lot of Super Saiyan 3 in the sense that it was more or less thrown in because the plot needed to last longer, and their aesthetics leave a lot to be desired. Ironically, Super Saiyan Blue Evolution had more of an explanation behind it and actually made more of a factor in battle, even though its original intended use was left unfulfilled.
I just don't want Vegeta's new form to end up like Super Saiyan 3. A form forgotten due to it being irrelevant due to new power or form.
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Re: Thoughts on Super Saiyan Blue Evolution (Vegeta's new transformation)

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Mar 31, 2018 4:48 pm

majinwarman wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
ZeroNeonix wrote:Compare that with Super's transformations, particularly the anime only ones. When they appear, they don't feel powerful. They feel on par with the powers of the others around them, or weaker. Super Saiyan Rage just allows Trunks to catch up to Goku and Vegeta. Super Saiyan Blue Evolution just allows Vegeta to catch up with Goku's SSBKK form. They never have the upper hand, so there's no sense of power growth.
I think as far as Super exclusive transformations go Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken, Ultra Instinct and Super Saiyan Rose were handled very well. It's only Super Saiyan Rage that I feel was quite mishandled. And Super Saiyan Blue Evolution reminds me a lot of Super Saiyan 3 in the sense that it was more or less thrown in because the plot needed to last longer, and their aesthetics leave a lot to be desired. Ironically, Super Saiyan Blue Evolution had more of an explanation behind it and actually made more of a factor in battle, even though its original intended use was left unfulfilled.
I just don't want Vegeta's new form to end up like Super Saiyan 3. A form forgotten due to it being irrelevant due to new power or form.
It's bound to happen. EVERY new SSJ form goes through that phase of quickly becoming irrelevant.

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Re: Thoughts on Super Saiyan Blue Evolution (Vegeta's new transformation)

Post by Bulma's Foot Masseur » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:08 pm

Super Saiyan Blue always meant more to Vegeta than Goku when it was implied he bypassed the ritual/SSJG and attained it all on his own. Continuing down that same path thus seems appropriate.

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Re: Thoughts on Super Saiyan Blue Evolution (Vegeta's new transformation)

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:43 pm

ZeroNeonix wrote:Eh. I like the idea of Vegeta having a transformation of his own. What I don't like is the implementation and design. He transforms to fight Jiren, and he gets beaten. Then Toppo transforms to rise to HIS level. We never get a badass moment from him to make this new form feel powerful. Super has had this problem with transformations from the beginning. Transformations just appear and don't leave much impact.

Think about transformations were handled in Z. Vegeta hypes up this Super Saiyan legend, Frieza kills Krillin, and Goku transforms out of anger. He beats the crap out of Frieza, showing just how much he's grown in power. Then Frieza unleashes his 100% Power, after it was already established that he was using only 10% power earlier in the arc. That way there's suspense, but the transformation still feels significantly more powerful than the previous form.

Similar thing with the Cell arc. Vegeta foreshadows a level above Super Saiyan. He steps outside the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, and Goku warns him about Cell's power boost after absorbing 17. He says that Vegeta would have to be ten times stronger than before, and Vegeta gives a confident laugh. You immediately know he's got something up his sleeve. He shows up, beats the crap out of Semiperfect Cell with his Ascended Super Saiyan form (or Super Saiyan Mark 2, if you prefer), but he allows Cell to absorb 18. Cell becomes more power than Vegeta. It's a similar pattern to the Frieza arc. There are stepping stones to power.

Compare that with Super's transformations, particularly the anime only ones. When they appear, they don't feel powerful. They feel on par with the powers of the others around them, or weaker. Super Saiyan Rage just allows Trunks to catch up to Goku and Vegeta. Super Saiyan Blue Evolution just allows Vegeta to catch up with Goku's SSBKK form. They never have the upper hand, so there's no sense of power growth.

Then there's design. Evolution has kind of a weird and awkward looking design. It's like every time I look at it, he looks different. There's just something off about it. It also shares the problem Super Saiyan 2 has. It's hard to tell the difference between the two. He changes shades, has a sparklier aura, and has dark blue pupils. His muscles also seem bigger like with Ascended Super Saiyan, but that seems inconsistent. I dunno, I think if they'd have just gone with another color, like violet or green, it would have helped it stand out more.
I agree that in DBS, it is difficult to see a new transformation debut and immediately overtake the opponent and win a battle, as happened in DBZ (with SSJ3 exception).
But this has been happening since the beginning of the series. The SSG appeared, gave Beerus a good fight, but was defeated.

The SSB first appeared in the fight against Golden Freeza, but the emperor was stronger and beat Goku.
But with the problem of energy expenditure of the Golden form, Freeza was defeated.

SSB Kaioken also appeared suddenly, but it did not do much. He overcame Hitto, but he caught up with him and then Goku gave up the fight.

The SSJ Rage only served so that Trunks was able to face Black and Zamasu.

For SSB Evolution, it is correct to say that initially, it appeared that Vegeta was able to maintain a good fight against Jiren, but we saw that afterwards it was essential for him to defeat Toppo, who at that moment was probably more powerful than any remaining warrior of U7 (even Goku, without the UI).
So I would say that in the end, this new form has fulfilled its purpose.

And about the design of SSB Evolution, I do not see inconsistency. The main difference is the darker shade of his hair, clothes and aura. The pupils are always there too. These are things you can really differentiate just by looking.
To be fair, only Gohan's SSJ2 in the saga Cell was differentiated, with Goku and Vegeta, there were not many changes, especially in Vegeta.

Maybe just Vegeta's muscles with SSB Evolution are somewhat inconsistent, though they're not as big as SSJ grade 2 and so they're not very sharp.
Lord Beerus wrote:
ZeroNeonix wrote:Compare that with Super's transformations, particularly the anime only ones. When they appear, they don't feel powerful. They feel on par with the powers of the others around them, or weaker. Super Saiyan Rage just allows Trunks to catch up to Goku and Vegeta. Super Saiyan Blue Evolution just allows Vegeta to catch up with Goku's SSBKK form. They never have the upper hand, so there's no sense of power growth.
I think as far as Super exclusive transformations go Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken, Ultra Instinct and Super Saiyan Rose were handled very well. It's only Super Saiyan Rage that I feel was quite mishandled. And Super Saiyan Blue Evolution reminds me a lot of Super Saiyan 3 in the sense that it was more or less thrown in because the plot needed to last longer, and their aesthetics leave a lot to be desired. Ironically, Super Saiyan Blue Evolution had more of an explanation behind it and actually made more of a factor in battle, even though its original intended use was left unfulfilled.
If it was a win / loss, I would say that initially, not even the UI was able to defeat Jiren, Goku had to change several times and even surpassing him in the end did not defeat him.
SSB Kaioken also did not defeat Hitto and no other enemy afterwards.

I would say that only Black in SSJ Rosé defeated his enemies the first time he appeared.

But if we are talking about exploring, I would say then that only the UI has been '' exploited ''. SSB Kaioken had an explanation, but then it was forgotten and we only know what SSJ Rosé is because of the manga.

But what would be the original intended for SSB Evolution?

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Re: Thoughts on Super Saiyan Blue Evolution (Vegeta's new transformation)

Post by PsionicWarrior » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:51 pm

Is SSJBE an official appellation btw? Because I'd rather call it SSJB2, the 'Evolution' part reminds me of that dreadful 2009 movie lol

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Re: Thoughts on Super Saiyan Blue Evolution (Vegeta's new transformation)

Post by PFM18 » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:57 pm

PsionicWarrior wrote:Is SSJBE an official appellation btw? Because I'd rather call it SSJB2, the 'Evolution' part reminds me of that dreadful 2009 movie lol
Dragon Ball Heroes called it "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Evolution" which is just the longer version of "Super Saiyan Blue Evolution." so SSBE is kind of the closest thing to official we are going to get. I don't think it is truly "Official" but there was a source that gave it a name in some capacity.

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Re: Thoughts on Super Saiyan Blue Evolution (Vegeta's new transformation)

Post by Benedetto12 » Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:12 pm

I like the fact that Vegeta follows his own path, this way the 4 main saiyans of the saga follow a different path:

Goku: UI
Vegeta: SSBE
Gohan: Ultimate
Trunks: SS Ikari

I really like the way it looks because it reminds me of the Ascended Super Saiyan, one of my favorite forms, the aura and the eyes give it a more unique look :thumbup:

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Re: Thoughts on Super Saiyan Blue Evolution (Vegeta's new transformation)

Post by Marlowe89 » Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:15 pm

majinwarman wrote:I just don't want Vegeta's new form to end up like Super Saiyan 3. A form forgotten due to it being irrelevant due to new power or form.
Super, if anything, made the Super Saiyan forms more relevant than they have been in a long time thanks to its introduction of opponents with all kinds of power levels and circumstances, especially in the tournament arcs. The problem with Super Saiyan 3 is that it rarely ever appears in the anime, which could either be caused by it (possibly) still having a massive stamina drawback or the animators deeming it more trouble than it's worth.

This was especially apparent to me when Goku, fighting against Kale as a berserker, said he was going to use a "little" more power than Super Saiyan 2 and then just went straight to Blue.

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Re: Thoughts on Super Saiyan Blue Evolution (Vegeta's new transformation)

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:29 pm

My only real concern is that Toriyama won't write it since it wasn't his idea. As a result I'm concerned about where Vegeta's development goes from here. Hopefully it'll prompt further adventurousness from the production crew of further animated projects so as to go beyond Toriyama's mere general outlines.
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Re: Thoughts on Super Saiyan Blue Evolution (Vegeta's new transformation)

Post by Raphael_Z » Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:01 pm

I think that the transformation would have been more impactful if it was achieved DURING his fight against God of Destruction Toppo (probably after getting a full-on Hakai to his face and surviving it thanks to his sheer will). The way the transformation was handled in the anime was kind of meh.

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Re: Thoughts on Super Saiyan Blue Evolution (Vegeta's new transformation)

Post by PFM18 » Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:11 pm

Raphael_Z wrote:I think that the transformation would have been more impactful if it was achieved DURING his fight against God of Destruction Toppo (probably after getting a full-on Hakai to his face and surviving it thanks to his sheer will). The way the transformation was handled in the anime was kind of meh.
I loved the form and thought it was badass but I strongly agree that should have been achieved against Toppo instead of having an arbitrary boost against Toppo during the fight and achieving the form against Jiren

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Re: Thoughts on Super Saiyan Blue Evolution (Vegeta's new transformation)

Post by buutenks » Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:11 am

I like it, always liked Super Vegeta from androids arc and this is basically Super Blue Vegeta and Vegeta defeated a GoD thanks to it, so it achieved allot, i wont mind even if it never appears again.

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Re: Thoughts on Super Saiyan Blue Evolution (Vegeta's new transformation)

Post by PFM18 » Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:27 am

buutenks wrote:I like it, always liked Super Vegeta from androids arc and this is basically Super Blue Vegeta and Vegeta defeated a GoD thanks to it, so it achieved allot, i wont mind even if it never appears again.
Wait so you say that you like it,explain why, and then go on to say that you wouldn't mund if it never appears again?

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Re: Thoughts on Super Saiyan Blue Evolution (Vegeta's new transformation)

Post by ZeroNeonix » Sun Apr 01, 2018 11:06 am

PFM18 wrote:Wait so you say that you like it,explain why, and then go on to say that you wouldn't mund if it never appears again?

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Re: Thoughts on Super Saiyan Blue Evolution (Vegeta's new transformation)

Post by TBMx » Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:02 pm

Looks too Kawaii.

The different art style of the movie might mean its following manga continuity instead, so you might not see it there. Though if they were smart they'd keep it, as most watch the anime.

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Re: Thoughts on Super Saiyan Blue Evolution (Vegeta's new transformation)

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:08 pm

Really oddly placed given that it's left in the dust by Omen, a good dozen episodes before it even debuts, never mind with completed UI. It feels really, really odd to give Vegeta his equivalent to KK Blue so late in the game, it should've happened sooner, honestly.
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Re: Thoughts on Super Saiyan Blue Evolution (Vegeta's new transformation)

Post by PFM18 » Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:34 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:Really oddly placed given that it's left in the dust by Omen, a good dozen episodes before it even debuts, never mind with completed UI. It feels really, really odd to give Vegeta his equivalent to KK Blue so late in the game, it should've happened sooner, honestly.
It isn't JUST an equivalent for KK Blue. It was when Vegeta first achieved it, but he WAY surpassed it when his aura flared up against Toppo.

The main thing is that is less draining than Kaioken

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Re: Thoughts on Super Saiyan Blue Evolution (Vegeta's new transformation)

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:12 pm

PFM18 wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:Really oddly placed given that it's left in the dust by Omen, a good dozen episodes before it even debuts, never mind with completed UI. It feels really, really odd to give Vegeta his equivalent to KK Blue so late in the game, it should've happened sooner, honestly.
It isn't JUST an equivalent for KK Blue. It was when Vegeta first achieved it, but he WAY surpassed it when his aura flared up against Toppo.

The main thing is that is less draining than Kaioken
It's still basically a way for Vegeta to compensate for KK Blue, one that shows up about five or six dozen episodes then it really should. The series just has Vegeta not care that Goku can instantly make himself twice to two dozen times stronger then him.

Then again, Evolution, Omen, God Toppo and Rage are all anime only things that Toriyama never intended so that's probably why it's insertion is awkward as hell.
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