What about Super disservice with characters like Goten, Trunks and Yamcha?

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Re: What about Super disservice with characters like Goten, Trunks and Yamcha?

Post by JazzMazz » Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:55 pm

I think the problem with Yamcha is that he is, and always has been a gag character, and I would say that he was the character that was least able to escape that pre-conception a long with the Pilaf gang. They're not particularly popular characters, and a lot of their popularity stems from their comic relief more than their actually serious aspects in the story. Later on, as they had a continually smaller role, they kind of fell out of favour, and since their were more and more characters that could just as easily fulfill his role in the story, he was then almost completely fazed out of the story.

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Re: What about Super disservice with characters like Goten, Trunks and Yamcha?

Post by Exline » Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:09 pm

Lionel wrote:Well I might just be a smidgen partial to Tenshinhan. I think when it comes to abilities he edges out Krillin with the possibilities made feasible with his Shiyoken, the Dodonpa, the multi-sidedness of his third eye, and the ability to project a ki beam from said third optical receptor. When it comes to brand name and familiarity with the audience, Krillin would make for the better option.

I'm not the biggest fan of the Saiyans. Cabba is the only who I've grown to like and it's because of his modesty and his ability to recognise his own shortcomings which not every fan may enjoy. However, I do agree that Toei needs to stop with this quasi-limbo state where they're allowing the earthlings to reappear on battlefields as combatants only to pull the rug out from under them despite some potential implications made of them in the build up to the scene. If you're not going all the way with a proper narrational investment then leave them to enjoy retirement. I question the appeal of a series centralised around Goku and Vegeta alone but if that's what they want then don't mince words or presentation.
Yeah now that you reminded me of all his old attacks, it made me realize how cool it was seeing him and Goku duke it out in the two tournament arcs back in OG Dragon Ball. I'm not exactly fascinated by characters like Hit and Jiren because they seem to be strong just for the sake of the plot. Their stories are rather uninteresting and they don't seem to be set up to become integral to the story anytime soon.

I miss characters with creative and unique attacks. The anime Merged Zamasu was the only interesting one with new attacks.

When we first meet Roshi, we bear witness to his Drunken Boxing Style and his Thunder Shock Surprise
Now Tien vs. Goku, we're shown his Solar Flare, his Four-Arm Attack and finally his Tri-Beam.
With Piccolo, he demonstrates his Makosen, his Hyper Explosive Demon Wave, and his Great Namek Form.

If only we could've gotten moments like those in Super, especially during the ToP. Sadly, all we ever get is overused attacks, awkward punches and kicks, and ki blast fights.


And yeah I'm not a fan of an all-saiyan cast, but Toriyama really makes it so that saiyans are the only ones capable of improving themselves. Also I feel like you were the person that mentioned in one my threads about bringing characters back to their relevancy in Dragon Ball that the main cast should have never been written to give up on improving themselves. It defeats the purpose of most of the characters joining in the first place. They literally had a boy in the future tell em the person who plans to kill them with his cyborgs and the Z Fighters don;t even do anything about because they want to fight those cyborgs in order to test their strength and improve themselves.

I always thought Dragon Ball was about improving yourself and breaking your limits. It seems that only applies to Goku and Vegeta while everyone else gets left in the dust due to losing their motivation because one of their friends is just way out of their league in terms of strength..

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Re: What about Super disservice with characters like Goten, Trunks and Yamcha?

Post by KingKaash » Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:06 am

It's always about what DBS didn't do isn't it :roll: I actually enjoyed that there was not one single cutaway scene to Bulma, Chi-Chi, Videl, Trunks, Goten or Yamacha.
"Gohan, let it go. It is not a sin to fight for the right cause. There are those who words alone will not reach. Cell is such a being. I know how you feel Gohan, you are gentle, you do not like to hurt. I know because I too have learned these feelings. But it is because you cherish life that you must protect it. Please drop your restraints. Protect the life I once loved. You have the strength, my scanners sensed it..." -Android 16

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Re: What about Super disservice with characters like Goten, Trunks and Yamcha?

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:44 am

JazzMazz wrote:I think the problem with Yamcha is that he is, and always has been a gag character, and I would say that he was the character that was least able to escape that pre-conception a long with the Pilaf gang.
You know, for the longest time, I've always had that notion, but after re-reading Dragon Ball in its entirety not to long ago, he wasn't really treated as gag character per se. I mean, at least no more than how most of cast had their fair share of comedic moments. But after he got destroyed by Saibamen, his credibility as fighter was ruined. And him being the first one to fall against the Androids (#19 and #20) was the final nail in the coffin.

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Re: What about Super disservice with characters like Goten, Trunks and Yamcha?

Post by lancerman » Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:51 am

The_Destroyer wrote:
lancerman wrote:
The_Destroyer wrote:
Sorry and I get what you’re saying, but fuck the baseball episode. Hate how it’s always brought up as Yamcha’s “moment”. The dude’s a Z fighter, can’t he get his moment in a fight or something?
No he can’t. He got jobbed our to Roshi in the first tournament, he got sidelined the entire 2nd tournament, was irrelevant in the King Piccolo arc, was beaten early in the 3rd tournament, blown up by a Saibamen within seconds of being relevant in the Saiyan arc, sidelined in the Namek arc. First man down in the Android arc, did nothing in the Boo arc.

Yamcha’s biggest moment since his debut was beating the Invisible man.
Oh wow he lost a bunch of fights, big deal, it’s not like everyone in the ToP had a perfect track record either. And at least Yamcha was there during the Android and Sayain arcs. Where the fuck was Roshi?
Yamcha lost in the first notable fight I've every arc he was a part of since the debut arc. It's very different from Tenshinhan losing late in the final battle against Piccolo and drum or sacrificing himself vs Nappa. He's literally the first character out in every arc assuming he even shows up in it.

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Re: What about Super disservice with characters like Goten, Trunks and Yamcha?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:30 am

Trunks at least had some meaningful character development with Future Trunks in the Zamasu arc. As for Goten, the only relevant scene he had in Super from a story standpoint was when his alternate self was killed by Zamasu, I guess...
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Re: What about Super disservice with characters like Goten, Trunks and Yamcha?

Post by SsjCookie » Sun Apr 01, 2018 3:58 am

JazzMazz wrote:I think the problem with Yamcha is that he is, and always has been a gag character, and I would say that he was the character that was least able to escape that pre-conception a long with the Pilaf gang. They're not particularly popular characters, and a lot of their popularity stems from their comic relief more than their actually serious aspects in the story. Later on, as they had a continually smaller role, they kind of fell out of favour, and since their were more and more characters that could just as easily fulfill his role in the story, he was then almost completely fazed out of the story.

I agree with Yamcha being mostly a gag character nowadays, but I think the reason Goten and Trunks are being neglected is because of the simple fact that they are children.
And children do no belong on the front lines, at least I hope that is the excuse they have for not involving them anywhere.
I hope that that will change when they reach adulthood so I still have some hope for them.

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Re: What about Super disservice with characters like Goten, Trunks and Yamcha?

Post by omaro34 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:35 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:I think the problem with Yamcha is that he is, and always has been a gag character, and I would say that he was the character that was least able to escape that pre-conception a long with the Pilaf gang.
You know, for the longest time, I've always had that notion, but after re-reading Dragon Ball in its entirety not to long ago, he wasn't really treated as gag character per se. I mean, at least no more than how most of cast had their fair share of comedic moments. But after he got destroyed by Saibamen, his credibility as fighter was ruined. And him being the first one to fall against the Androids (#19 and #20) was the final nail in the coffin.
Yamcha had the classic case of being the first one to fall victim to the new threat. In Z that was definitely the case.

His fight against Tenshinhan where his leg was broken was his last real fight in my opinion. The humiliation really started before the Saiyan arc, during the 23rd tourney when Hero (Kami) used his head to nail him in the nuts. It was all downhill from there.
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Re: What about Super disservice with characters like Goten, Trunks and Yamcha?

Post by Jackalope89 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:04 pm

omaro34 wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:I think the problem with Yamcha is that he is, and always has been a gag character, and I would say that he was the character that was least able to escape that pre-conception a long with the Pilaf gang.
You know, for the longest time, I've always had that notion, but after re-reading Dragon Ball in its entirety not to long ago, he wasn't really treated as gag character per se. I mean, at least no more than how most of cast had their fair share of comedic moments. But after he got destroyed by Saibamen, his credibility as fighter was ruined. And him being the first one to fall against the Androids (#19 and #20) was the final nail in the coffin.
Yamcha had the classic case of being the first one to fall victim to the new threat. In Z that was definitely the case.

His fight against Tenshinhan where his leg was broken was his last real fight in my opinion. The humiliation really started before the Saiyan arc, during the 23rd tourney when Hero (Kami) used his head to nail him in the nuts. It was all downhill from there.
And he hasn't actually trained for a fight since the Cell Saga, instead playing baseball.

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Re: What about Super disservice with characters like Goten, Trunks and Yamcha?

Post by omaro34 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:17 pm

Jackalope89 wrote:
omaro34 wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote: You know, for the longest time, I've always had that notion, but after re-reading Dragon Ball in its entirety not to long ago, he wasn't really treated as gag character per se. I mean, at least no more than how most of cast had their fair share of comedic moments. But after he got destroyed by Saibamen, his credibility as fighter was ruined. And him being the first one to fall against the Androids (#19 and #20) was the final nail in the coffin.
Yamcha had the classic case of being the first one to fall victim to the new threat. In Z that was definitely the case.

His fight against Tenshinhan where his leg was broken was his last real fight in my opinion. The humiliation really started before the Saiyan arc, during the 23rd tourney when Hero (Kami) used his head to nail him in the nuts. It was all downhill from there.
And he hasn't actually trained for a fight since the Cell Saga, instead playing baseball.
At least in the Anime he did help the Z fighters distract Cell during that epic beam struggle, but that was the last time we saw him in the battlefield. If you don't count the fight against Olibu that is.
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Re: What about Super disservice with characters like Goten, Trunks and Yamcha?

Post by TekTheNinja » Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:25 pm

Yamcha is my favorite character and I despise how they've meme-ified him, but a thing I've noticed is at least people generally seem to agree that Yamcha deserved a spot on the universe 7 team.

Poor fucking Buu though! I feel like I'm one of the only ones who even cares how badly he's shafted. Most people are like "lel who cares, we got Frieza now" even though Buu would have been able to be a much better member for the team, especially since his healing powers could justify the other fighters regaining their strength in a matter of seconds, even after getting completely devastated. Buu would have fixed that problem with the show. But nope. We gotta have the shitty overused lizard instead and he even gets to be revived for fuck's sake.

Back to Yamcha though, talking about him just makes me sad. Even Mayumi Tanaka said in her cast interview thingy that she apologized to Furuya about it and that she wished Krillin could have invited Yamcha. Honestly I wouldn't be as annoyed if Yamcha was asked and chose to decline instead of just having really shitty friends who didn't want him there. At least in the manga version he was at least SOMEWHAT considered unlike the anime where they make a joke out of him wanting to go but never getting invited because "hurr durr Yamcha is weak memes", but that's shallow praise.
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Re: What about Super disservice with characters like Goten, Trunks and Yamcha?

Post by Olympian » Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:23 am

lancerman wrote:
The_Destroyer wrote:
lancerman wrote:
No he can’t. He got jobbed our to Roshi in the first tournament, he got sidelined the entire 2nd tournament, was irrelevant in the King Piccolo arc, was beaten early in the 3rd tournament, blown up by a Saibamen within seconds of being relevant in the Saiyan arc, sidelined in the Namek arc. First man down in the Android arc, did nothing in the Boo arc.

Yamcha’s biggest moment since his debut was beating the Invisible man.
Oh wow he lost a bunch of fights, big deal, it’s not like everyone in the ToP had a perfect track record either. And at least Yamcha was there during the Android and Sayain arcs. Where the fuck was Roshi?
Yamcha lost in the first notable fight I've every arc he was a part of since the debut arc. It's very different from Tenshinhan losing late in the final battle against Piccolo and drum or sacrificing himself vs Nappa. He's literally the first character out in every arc assuming he even shows up in it.
Yamcha and Goku fought twice and he didn`t lost the first fight.

Yamcha wasn`t the first to fall on Baba`s Tournament.

Yamcha was hit in the balls while Tenshinhan was pantied in public in the 23rd Bodukai.

He`s a joke nowadays but some of these "Ah, always knew it Watson" inception logic about the early days are scretched thin. Toryama benched him after Gero but Kuririn didn`t do any actual fighting post Namek either. He destroyed a remote control, got his ass kicked by the Jr like everybody else and got called the strongest Earthling when the rest of them were retired.
Ki Breaker wrote:

Yamcha + Roshi = Yamoshi

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Re: What about Super disservice with characters like Goten, Trunks and Yamcha?

Post by Olympian » Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:25 pm

By the by, the Invisible Man comes third.

. He saved the world of a Oozaru rampage

. He saved the two main characters for being carrots for life.
Ki Breaker wrote:

Yamcha + Roshi = Yamoshi

Coincidence? I think not

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Re: What about Super disservice with characters like Goten, Trunks and Yamcha?

Post by Commodore Krevin » Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:59 pm

Olympian wrote:
Yamcha and Goku fought twice and he didn`t lost the first fight.
Shrug. Beating an opponent who has a handicap and then immediately losing when said handicap is removes seems less than truly impressive. And this is about the high point of Yamcha's badassery and plot usefulness. But I will admit if we refrain ourselves solely to the Pilar arc yes Desert bandit Yamcha is pretty cool and yes crucial to the group's success. Be it helping to defeat Boss Rabbit or stopping Goku's Great Ape Form. The issue becomes following that arc these moments become few and far between.
Olympian wrote:Yamcha was hit in the balls while Tenshinhan was pantied in public in the 23rd Bodukai.
And had his leg crushed by Tien in the 22nd Marial arts tournament forcing him to sit out and do nothing during the Demon King Piccolo arc and before that being knocked out the ring with contemptuous ease by Master Roshi in the 21st. With his biggest victory post-Pilaf arc being defeating the invisible man IIRC. It isn't hard to argue from that Toriyama had lost interest in the character as earlier as the first tournament as anything other than a walking Worf effect.

Conversely while Krillin may not have won many if any more fights than Yamcha he still managed to be useful and relevant to the plot. Going with Gohan and Bulma to revive everyone on Namek, chopping off Freezia's tail, destroying the remote control to the Androids ect. Especially by "Z", Yamcha could not make a similar claim.

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Re: What about Super disservice with characters like Goten, Trunks and Yamcha?

Post by AnimeNation101 » Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:13 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:There's not much you can do with characters that either Toriyama doesn't care about anymore or didn't have much personality to begin with.
I agree. Yamcha is too far gone into the joke category for MOST people to really take him seriously so he probably can’t carry and episode unless its comedy episode. Goten doesn’t really have a personality at all. He’s just kind of there. He’s like the Chioatzu of saiyans. Trunks is cool but his bratty nature can get annoying. The only way Goten and Trunks are useful is when they’re Gotenks and even then, Gotenks is too immature to actually do anything serious. Its too late for them.

Thats honestly why I’d rather see the characters they’ve introduced. The U6 saiyans, Hit, U6 Namekians, the Pride Troopers and yes, even the Kamakazi Fireballs
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Re: What about Super disservice with characters like Goten, Trunks and Yamcha?

Post by Miracles » Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:37 pm

Where do people get the idea that certain characters are suppose to get face time?
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Re: What about Super disservice with characters like Goten, Trunks and Yamcha?

Post by prince212 » Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:51 pm

jeffbr92 wrote:
I hated that the show ended without even trying to make them look a bit older as the time had passed, I mean Super ended on age 780, EoZ is on 784, so we should really expect that in just four years they grew up from that:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

To that?
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
.
It’s weird but I’d like to compare that with gokus growing, I don’t remember the time passed in between piccolo arc and saiyan arc .
About the disservice that you talk .. I don’t think is a big deal , we saw them , but the franchise can’t get stock in every character for ever and they have to dose their appearances , so it’s normal
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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Re: What about Super disservice with characters like Goten, Trunks and Yamcha?

Post by jeffbr92 » Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:05 pm

prince212 wrote:It’s weird but I’d like to compare that with Goku's growing, I don’t remember the time passed in between Piccolo arc and Saiyan arc.
23rd TB arc was 3 years after the Piccolo Daimao arc and the Saiyan arc was 5 years after the 23rd TB arc.

And yes, you can use Goku's growth as comparison, but for me as Goten and Trunks are hybrids, I'd compare their growth with Gohan:
[spoiler]7 years old:
Image
10 years old:
Image
16 years old:
Image[/spoiler]
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Re: What about Super disservice with characters like Goten, Trunks and Yamcha?

Post by prince212 » Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:08 pm

jeffbr92 wrote:
prince212 wrote:It’s weird but I’d like to compare that with Goku's growing, I don’t remember the time passed in between Piccolo arc and Saiyan arc.
23rd TB arc was 3 years after the Piccolo Daimao arc and the Saiyan arc was 5 years after the 23rd TB arc.

And yes, you can use Goku's growth as comparison, but for me as Goten and Trunks are hybrids, I'd compare their growth with Gohan:
[spoiler]7 years old:
Image
10 years old:
Image
16 years old:
Image[/spoiler]
Yeap your words have sense , goten and trunks with the same size as buu arc is nosense
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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Re: What about Super disservice with characters like Goten, Trunks and Yamcha?

Post by lancerman » Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:35 pm

Olympian wrote:
lancerman wrote:
The_Destroyer wrote:
Oh wow he lost a bunch of fights, big deal, it’s not like everyone in the ToP had a perfect track record either. And at least Yamcha was there during the Android and Sayain arcs. Where the fuck was Roshi?
Yamcha lost in the first notable fight I've every arc he was a part of since the debut arc. It's very different from Tenshinhan losing late in the final battle against Piccolo and drum or sacrificing himself vs Nappa. He's literally the first character out in every arc assuming he even shows up in it.
Yamcha and Goku fought twice and he didn`t lost the first fight.

Yamcha wasn`t the first to fall on Baba`s Tournament.

Yamcha was hit in the balls while Tenshinhan was pantied in public in the 23rd Bodukai.

He`s a joke nowadays but some of these "Ah, always knew it Watson" inception logic about the early days are scretched thin. Toryama benched him after Gero but Kuririn didn`t do any actual fighting post Namek either. He destroyed a remote control, got his ass kicked by the Jr like everybody else and got called the strongest Earthling when the rest of them were retired.
1. Did you read what you quoted? I literally said every notable arc since his debut arc. The first fight is disqualified by that.

2. Yes in the Baba tournament he got his butt kicked a whole fight before comedy shenanigans before getting embarrassed and treated like a joke in the next fight, which happened to be the first serious fight of that tournament. Also the Baba Tournament is just a piece of the second dragonball Hunt arc.

3. Okay good he still lost to Tenshinhan and was the sacrificial lamb

4. Kuriren after his debut arc advanced to the semi finals in the 22nd tournament, was one of the last men standing in the Saiyan arc, was a key figure in the Namek arc, played a significant role in the Android arc.

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