What about Super disservice with characters like Goten, Trunks and Yamcha?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: What about Super disservice with characters like Goten, Trunks and Yamcha?

Post by Vegeta_Sama » Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:47 am

Bullza wrote:
Timetraveller wrote:Iirc, aren't those movies over 20 years old and not canon? So they should have small roles because they appeared in a movie from 20 years ago?
Canon or not is besides the point. They were introduced and then quickly took up too much of the media. They are the reason why Movies 10 and 11 are terrible and they were also the worst part of Movie 12 in another wise good movie.

They're annoying brats. Good as supporting characters who appear and there but should never be main characters.
And that's why people want then to grow up, so that they can become interesting characters.
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Re: What about Super disservice with characters like Goten, Trunks and Yamcha?

Post by Timetraveller » Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:52 am

Robo4900 wrote:
jeffbr92 wrote:Sure it has improved from what was GT: a Goku show.
Nah, it's no better.

Super is the Goku and Vegeta show. Sure, GT was Goku and Pan, with Gill and sometimes Trunks, but the thing is, GT actually did something quite clever with the side-characters; there are so many of them, it's hard to fit all of them into a given space without having really long episodes, or terrible pacing, so the side characters generally would appear for brief guest spots to get their time in the limelight. This can be quite an effective approach; Piccolo's death didn't have much build-up, but it strikes you suddenly, as death often does in reality, so you get a real pang from it. So, Piccolo's time in the limelight ends up really kicking you in the face. And on a similar subject, Mr. Satan's near-retirement at the tournament was quite touching. Granted, it was a bit of a forgettable episode in terms of plot, but the characterisation was solid, and it generally felt like just a decent breather/filler episode between arcs, with some emotional weight from Mr. Satan's grief at Boo's nonexistence. It also had a pretty strong familial vibe to it, which I would argue ties into the Super #17 arc's crux of #17 and #18 having to face off, and that familial connection permanently getting severed, with #17's death. I think it's fairly obvious quite a lot of thought went into plotting this out.

In Super, Boo has been teased, then snubbed twice, and really in general, they've shoved a lot of characters in, but poorly-written them, and the end result is just not any good IMO(For example: Roshi and Tenshinhan's recruitment into the TOP, and the Gohan and Videl filler concerning the Great Saiyaman movie).

It's as you say, the side-characters in Super have been done a great disservice.

GT didn't try to do much with the side-characters, but it did okay with what it had, and its characterisations were fine. Super shoved as many characters in as it could, characterised a ton of them very poorly(Hell, even Goku has been pretty out of character for a lot of Super), and basically just overall failed at the thing Dragon Ball has always survived on, in my view -- characterisation.
In my view, Super only really survives on hype and action, which to me is just the icing on the cake, with the actual cake being characters, comedy, decent storylines, etc. Super is basically all icing, so it just leaves me sickened, with no desire to have any more.

The way I see it, GT spent a lot of time putting its plots together, then put whatever characters made sense into it, which ended up meaning the main 3 or 4 characters got most of the focus, while everyone else generally just showed up every now and then for their big moment.
Meanwhile, Super basically just tries to throw as many characters into its arcs as possible, then they figure out how to make that a story afterward. This means there has to be a lot of contrivances to get the story to the place it needs to be in for any of this to make sense, and there's no real time for the characters to get any big moments, so in the end, the problem of just a few characters getting the focus, and the rest getting sidelined just happens all over again. I think this approach to writing could work, but they just haven't spent the time necessary to get it to work.

Still, Super does end up having more characters used, and I can see why many would prefer that to GT's approach. So... As always, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and I apologise if I am hurting anyone's feelings; I'm just saying what I feel, and since it seems to be inverse to what many others feel, I imagine it may raise some interesting and enjoyable discussion points, so... That's what I'm hoping for. If that's not what's happening, just go ahead and ignore my bitter ranting. You'll probably be a lot happier for it. :lol:
jeffbr92 wrote:Some might even include Boo, Tenshinhan, Piccolo or even Chaozu (feel free to do that)
My favourite character in the franchise is Piccolo, and my favourite Z antagonist is Boo. I liked the couple of moments Piccolo has had, and I do love that he's Gohan's mentor again -- that tracks very nicely with the character progressions they're going for, but Piccolo and Gohan aren't really doing enough together, they just go "oh hey these two are together doing stuff again", then aside from having those nice slice of life moments with Piccolo at Gohan's house, we don't see much of him at all, then suddenly with this arc, we get a sudden "oh gohan's training is finished btw".
And Boo has basically become the puncline to a joke no one outside of Toei seems to get. To me, it seems the problem with Boo is that he's so over-powered, Toei has no idea what to do with him, and they don't realise this until the last minute, so they just do the "oh he's asleep again" stopgap measure. Highly frustrating IMO.

GT didn't do much with Piccolo or Boo, but when they got their time in the spotlight, it was well-used; Piccolo's death is one of the most powerful moments in GT, and Boo's fusion with Oob, and its effects on the tournament episode were really nice payoffs to the whole Oob/Boo situation, and allowed Mr. Satan to get a fairly sweet character moment in the tournament.
jeffbr92 wrote:GI hated that the show ended without even trying to make them look a bit older as the time had passed [...] But this is not only about aesthetics, let's talk about how their characters were poorly used, often brought to the sidelines by other characters saying they were just kids to do anything, though they relied on them in the past to defeat a genocidal monster, hypocrisy much? No to mention their whole subplot taking care of a Island was offscreen.
Honestly, I would love to see an episode or two just showing Goten and Trunks goofing off on the island.
But, aside from that, yeah, pawning them off onto the island was just dumb.
Since they trusted them to defeat Super Boo, and there's no real danger in the TOP that doesn't apply to those outside the tournament, why not just kick Roshi or Tenshinhan out of the tournament(Then have one of them take care of #17's island), and bring Goten and Trunks in instead of Freeza? It would make a ton more sense.
jeffbr92 wrote:Well, people might say: "oh but who cares about Yamcha", "he just serves to be a meme", "he's useless" opinions only, as there are people who would enjoy if he had better moments in the show than just being used a "funny" gag.
Yeah, that all comes from people who've never seen the original series. And to those people, I say: You now have at least 25 extra minutes a week now that Super's over. Give the original series a look, it's a classic, and it will show you why people like Yamcha, Tenshinhan, and Roshi so much, and it will make you understand the true brilliance of Piccolo, and you'll understand the friendship between Goku, Bulma, and Kuririn, and who/what Oolong is exactly, etc.
jeffbr92 wrote:Why not have Yamcha fighting again? Improve his techniques? Overcome his fears? Instead they prefered to reinforce the point of the fanbase seeing him just like a joke, a meme, a character that never should been taken seriously and that's sad.
Yep. Unfortunately, it looks like Toei have basically given in to Yamcha's meme status, and... Yeah, that's sad. Yamcha can be funny(He was hilarious in the first arc of DB), but the way he's been handled in Super is just character assassination. Hell, his entire attitude about "Oh hey they're going to bring me into the TOP. I should wait around for an invite" and such felt, to me, pretty damn out of character, and this hugely annoyed me. Really, I felt like someone at Toei just realised suddenly "Oh wait, what about Yamcha?", to which the reply was "Oh right... Uhh... Well, just make a stupid joke, and have them just not invite or acknowledge him at all." ...

IMO, Super's handling of the characters is just terrible, and it's yet another reason I just can't stand the show.

...

Anyway, people are probably getting a little tired of my constant slamming of Super, so unless anyone asks me to elaborate, I won't go any further with that in this thread, but I thought I'd at least offer my two cents to this discussion. I think I've offered some interesting points, but who knows, maybe this just comes off as a kinda boring, bitter rant. Oh well. :lol:
I complete agree. You articulated it much better than I could. People will try to minimize what GT did with their characters by saying it was goku time but they completely disregard how the other characters were represented. Super shoved a whole bunch of characters in your face but never decently characterized any of them. Heck, they added 80 characters just for the tournament Even Jiren, the strongest and longest running villain of the series, was reduced to about 5 minutes of characterization consisting of a generic backstory and motivation. He spent the rest of his screen time as a silent, arms folded character. To me, it's more about quality than quantity and GT's characterization and plot building were far superior to DBS. Super created the characters first and then wrote the plot around them, which is why the plot was disjointed and felt largely like fanservice at times.

I would've loved to see Roshi defend the poachers in place of 17, freeing up a roster spot for someone like Buu or Yamcha or maybe someone from a different planet. This would've been a perfect throwback to all those island adventures he, Goku and Krillin went on in DB. Having Roshi agree to a fighting tournament with the multiverse' strongest fightest after decades of retirement was out of character for him (done for fan service) but Roshi defending the island would have been the perfect way to afford him more screentime. He might be old but he's still too strong for some regular humans with guns
Last edited by Timetraveller on Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:46 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: What about Super disservice with characters like Goten, Trunks and Yamcha?

Post by SsjCookie » Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:00 am

Timetraveller wrote:To me, it's more about quality than quantity
This about sums it up, Super is all about quantity instead of quality.
In the TOP there were so many characters involved it considerably thinned any individual characterization they should have given them.
It made them bland and uninteresting as individuals.

In Gt they may have focused a lot on Goku, Pan and Trunks in the beginning, but at least they had some proper character development because of that.

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Re: What about Super disservice with characters like Goten, Trunks and Yamcha?

Post by Lionel » Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:53 am

I would gladly take Yamcha over Vegeta. There's only so much "Saiyan pride" and "limitless Saiyan power" chestbeating that a person can tolerate before it grows irksome, even unwanted. Yamcha better represents a rags to riches figure much better than Goku, I dare say; he didn't possess the advantages of zenkais or a nigh limitless smorgasbord of new hair colouring schemes to power himself up with.

Yamcha should have the chance to go for a modern fighting career in some new material. Wolf Fang Fist and Sokidan sound downright fresh now in comparison to all of the Kamehamehas, Final Flashes, and Galick Guns that have been getting thrown about.

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Re: What about Super disservice with characters like Goten, Trunks and Yamcha?

Post by GreatSaiyaJeff » Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:29 am

I find it interesting people are throwing Roshi under the bus because he was represented and not Yamcha. He was chosen for his experience as a fighter. Yeah his character arc ended back in the original DB, but he found a new resolve. Just because one story ended doesn't mean another one can't happen. Sure he is the weakest but as episode 105 and 107 proved, strength wasn't everything. He bluffed to beat a fighter, used the mafuba, and saved Vegeta from Frost. Not to say Yamcha wouldn't have had interesting fights, but I don't think he would have been as clever. Don't get me wrong, I still wish Yamcha had a role in the story, but maybe when the series returns he can get a role in an arc. Or hopefully Toei will make an anime adaptation of the fan manga elsewhere. A fan can dream.
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Re: What about Super disservice with characters like Goten, Trunks and Yamcha?

Post by jplaya2023 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:47 am

yamcha doesn't matter, but i am dissapointed to see lack of development for trunks and goten especially goten. I feel like he would be like goku and just want to train eat and fight that we would've seen him progressing and training with goku.

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Re: What about Super disservice with characters like Goten, Trunks and Yamcha?

Post by jeffbr92 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:49 am

Chibi Gohan wrote:Sure! It's not like it's unprecedented. Compare Goku's appearance from when he defeated King Piccolo to the 23rd Tournament.
Sure you can speak about Goku's growth spurt, but Goten and Trunks are hybrids so I compare their growth with Gohan:
[spoiler]7 years old:
Image
10 years old:
Image
16 years old:
Image[/spoiler]
Bullza wrote:Goten and Trunks had enough screen time at the time. They took too much of Movie 10. Took up all of Movie 11 which is the worst one. Trunks took up a lot of Movie 12. Trunks had more screen time than favourites like Krillin, Piccolo and Gohan in Movie 13. They even took up way too much of the JSAT special.
Using movies was examples are not a good argument as these are not part of the main timeline, it's like saying: "I hate that Goku always wins" based on the movies.
Trunks having more screentime than Krillin and Piccolo was the best thing in M13 as he got some good character development in there.
JSAT special screentime meant nothing to Goten and Trunks as again portraying them as reckless childs and have Goku to defeat the enemy.
Lord Beerus wrote:There's not much you can do with characters that either Toriyama doesn't care about anymore or didn't have much personality to begin with.
I agree on the first part, but about personality, that's something that can be build, look at Jiren for example (though not that good lol)
JulieYBM wrote:Having those two not be interested in fighting sets them apart from the other characters as it is. That's a good thing! One day I would love to see Shida Naotoshi animate a new fight for Yamcha, if only because it would be so unexpected.
But we saw sometimes in the anime Goten and Trunks interested in taking part of the action (U6 vs. U7 and the Tournament of Power) and Yamcha too.

And yes, I also would love Shida animating an Yamcha fight, I can imagine the possibilities he could use with his Rogafufuken.
Lionel wrote:I would gladly take Yamcha over Vegeta.
Now, that's just pushing lol
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Re: What about Super disservice with characters like Goten, Trunks and Yamcha?

Post by Exline » Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:25 pm

Only the movies really gave our fan favorite characters some development outside of the main series.

As much as I want characters like Tien, Yamcha, etc. to be relevant again, I think it's best they stay retired. A large cast is going to feel a bit clustered, like what we got in Battle of Gods imo. We can't have every Z Fighter in one story fighting, can we? It's also been established time and time again that the Earthlings are just way out of their league to participate in these large-scale battles between gods and alien prodigies.

At the same time, I really don't see the need anymore for these characters to keep coming back, especially due to the way they've been poorly handled ever since Battle of Gods movie. Characters like Krillin has his family to worry about, as well as Gohan. Yamcha, Tien, and Chiaotzu are getting pretty old for these fights. They're most likely reaching their 50s.

Instead we should be focusing on the new generation of Z Fighters like Goten, Trunks, Pan and Uub. I don't understand why Toriyama involved Tien and Roshi instead of Goten and Trunks, or even Buu.

imo I wish we had stuck with the original cast from the Buu Arc:

Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, Trunks, Videl, Krillin, 18 and Majin Buu. Don't understand why this generation of Z Fighters wasn't developed more.

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Re: What about Super disservice with characters like Goten, Trunks and Yamcha?

Post by BlueBasilisk » Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:43 pm

Exline wrote:Only the movies really gave our fan favorite characters some development outside of the main series.

As much as I want characters like Tien, Yamcha, etc. to be relevant again, I think it's best they stay retired. A large cast is going to feel a bit clustered, like what we got in Battle of Gods imo. We can't have every Z Fighter in one story fighting, can we? It's also been established time and time again that the Earthlings are just way out of their league to participate in these large-scale battles between gods and alien prodigies.

At the same time, I really don't see the need anymore for these characters to keep coming back, especially due to the way they've been poorly handled ever since Battle of Gods movie. Characters like Krillin has his family to worry about, as well as Gohan. Yamcha, Tien, and Chiaotzu are getting pretty old for these fights. They're most likely reaching their 50s.

Instead we should be focusing on the new generation of Z Fighters like Goten, Trunks, Pan and Uub. I don't understand why Toriyama involved Tien and Roshi instead of Goten and Trunks, or even Buu.

imo I wish we had stuck with the original cast from the Buu Arc:

Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, Trunks, Videl, Krillin, 18 and Majin Buu. Don't understand why this generation of Z Fighters wasn't developed more.
Having the old gang back together again is nice fanservice, but outside of things like RoF or the Tournament where there are low level mooks to fight or other avenues to victory besides killing the bad guy, it doesn't feel like a lot of them have much to bring to the battlefield anymore. They wouldn't even try rushing First Form Frieza as a group and none of them tried fighting the heavy guns in the tournament. The closest we came to that was Roshi vs Frost and Magetta. I'm okay with them moving along because they have families, careers, and lives to be living so they aren't just sitting around miserably twiddling their thumbs because they've been forgotten. Krillin's a cop and has his family, Tien has a dojo with a sizable number of students and seems to be respected by the townsfolk, Yamcha has his baseball career, And Roshi...does what Roshi does. :lol: But even he could take on new students or something if he felt so inclined.

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Re: What about Super disservice with characters like Goten, Trunks and Yamcha?

Post by jeffbr92 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:53 pm

Exline wrote:imo I wish we had stuck with the original cast from the Buu Arc: Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, Trunks, Videl, Krillin, 18 and Majin Buu. Don't understand why this generation of Z Fighters wasn't developed more.
Me too, though If the U7 team was composed by: Goku, Vegeta, Freeza, Gohan, Boo, Piccolo, Goten, Trunks, 17 and 18. People would whine that team was a Saiyan fest.

But, my point in defending Yamcha in this thread is that if Super gave something for Krillin, Roshi and even Tien to do, they could do the same with Yamcha.
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Re: What about Super disservice with characters like Goten, Trunks and Yamcha?

Post by Exline » Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:30 pm

BlueBasilisk wrote: Having the old gang back together again is nice fanservice, but outside of things like RoF or the Tournament where there are low level mooks to fight or other avenues to victory besides killing the bad guy, it doesn't feel like a lot of them have much to bring to the battlefield anymore. They wouldn't even try rushing First Form Frieza as a group and none of them tried fighting the heavy guns in the tournament. The closest we came to that was Roshi vs Frost and Magetta. I'm okay with them moving along because they have families, careers, and lives to be living so they aren't just sitting around miserably twiddling their thumbs because they've been forgotten. Krillin's a cop and has his family, Tien has a dojo with a sizable number of students and seems to be respected by the townsfolk, Yamcha has his baseball career, And Roshi...does what Roshi does. :lol: But even he could take on new students or something if he felt so inclined.
God I loved that episode of Vegeta and Roshi working together. That's one of the few things I appreciated about the ToP, some great character interactions..
(18 and 17, 18 and Krillin, Goku and Roshi, Gohan and Frieza etc.)

And yeah I feel those are perfect ways to end their character arcs. Kinda tired of seeing them come back only to be treated like utter shit.. especially poor Tien. I will never forget how useless he looked in that episode of Gohan & Piccolo vs. Goku and Tien. It was very heart wrenching for me :(.
jeffbr92 wrote:
Exline wrote:imo I wish we had stuck with the original cast from the Buu Arc: Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, Trunks, Videl, Krillin, 18 and Majin Buu. Don't understand why this generation of Z Fighters wasn't developed more.
Me too, though If the U7 team was composed by: Goku, Vegeta, Freeza, Gohan, Boo, Piccolo, Goten, Trunks, 17 and 18. People would whine that team was a Saiyan fest.

But, my point in defending Yamcha in this thread is that if Super gave something for Krillin, Roshi and even Tien to do, they could do the same with Yamcha.

I'd honestly be okay with a team full of saiyans. I don't see the problem now that most of the cast has different transformations. I think the major problem was SSJ being overused too often. But now there would be so many things that could happen with a cast like that: SSB Goku and Vegeta, SSG Goku, Mystic Gohan, Gotenks, etc.

[spoiler]You may find it weird I mentioned Videl haha. I felt Videl could've been a great character. She was the tomboyish brat that would try to follow in Gohan's steps as the Great Saiyamn. Her portrayal in Movie 13 proved she could have been an integral member of the Z Fighters. It lacks woman and she seemed very fitting. With Gohan's help, she could have reached Krillin's level imo. Sad she got shafted and turned into a stay-home mom when she was set up to be a fighter.[/spoiler]

For Yamcha's case , I think it comes to Toriyama having favortism over other characters. I don't think its wrong of him to have Roshi return instead of Yamcha, it's his story. I just wish he would give characters that he ignores proper send offs. At least give Yamcha a better reason then "being scared to fight Frieza." It's an extreme disservice to the fans like you've stated. If that were the case, I'd be fine with him being sidelined.

I also agree that Yamcha should have been apart of the ToP instead. As well as characters getting new techniques. Tired of seeing Hellzone Grenade, Tri-Beam, Destructo Disc, etc. Give us something fresh and new and creative. It upsets me that the manga and anime don't really try that and just constantly reuse attacks we've seen over and over again to the point that they've lost their novelty on me.

Super just feels like nothing but fanservice most of the time, except done in a such mediocre ways when it could be much, much better. :(

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Re: What about Super disservice with characters like Goten, Trunks and Yamcha?

Post by Grimlock » Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:37 pm

jeffbr92 wrote:I hated that the show ended without even trying to make them look a bit older as the time had passed, I mean Super ended on age 780, EoZ is on 784, so we should really expect that in just four years they grew up from that:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

To that?
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
We also have to deal with the unfortunate fact that Dragon Ball Super ended with this annoying inconsistency. And Marron should be a bit taller too, she's a human after all, so it's extremely weird she's going to be about as taller as her mother in just four years.

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Re: What about Super disservice with characters like Goten, Trunks and Yamcha?

Post by PTOldMan » Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:20 pm

I think they could have gotten more. I enjoyed those slice of life episodes, but I think that they could have given one or two of these episodes to Yamcha and have him fight some thugs or something, so that we're reminded that hey he's a fighter too!

Though I still think that the character that should have had some love and had none is Launch. Super was the right opportunity for her to return! It's so sad a character that was formerly part of the main cast nowadays has simply vanished. They brought Pilaf back, why not Launch too?

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Re: What about Super disservice with characters like Goten, Trunks and Yamcha?

Post by Dragono » Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:48 pm

Lionel wrote:I would gladly take Yamcha over Vegeta. There's only so much "Saiyan pride" and "limitless Saiyan power" chestbeating that a person can tolerate before it grows irksome, even unwanted. Yamcha better represents a rags to riches figure much better than Goku, I dare say; he didn't possess the advantages of zenkais or a nigh limitless smorgasbord of new hair colouring schemes to power himself up with.

Yamcha should have the chance to go for a modern fighting career in some new material. Wolf Fang Fist and Sokidan sound downright fresh now in comparison to all of the Kamehamehas, Final Flashes, and Galick Guns that have been getting thrown about.
Thats not going to work after z man, especially since it barely worked in ball.

The tournament of power was the last shot for anyone other than Goku and Vegeta to do something, we literally can't go back to how it used to be.


The fact that people actually wanted Goten and Trunks in the tournament other than the humans should have told you that.

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Re: What about Super disservice with characters like Goten, Trunks and Yamcha?

Post by lancerman » Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:10 pm

The_Destroyer wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
The_Destroyer wrote:I still don’t get why they didn’t just add Yamcha in Super’s version of RoF. They added Goten and Trunks to fight Tagoma, I think they could have managed Yamcha. At least they dropped the line about it “being to dangerous for him”.

Really all I want is just one good modern Yamch fight. How long are we gonna have to wait to even get one? Or are we never gonna get one at all?
His not a character that deserves one, though I would say that episode 70 more than makes up for lack of presence in the show(I would say it easily trumps any of Tenshinhan's appearances in Super by a mile).
Sorry and I get what you’re saying, but fuck the baseball episode. Hate how it’s always brought up as Yamcha’s “moment”. The dude’s a Z fighter, can’t he get his moment in a fight or something?
No he can’t. He got jobbed our to Roshi in the first tournament, he got sidelined the entire 2nd tournament, was irrelevant in the King Piccolo arc, was beaten early in the 3rd tournament, blown up by a Saibamen within seconds of being relevant in the Saiyan arc, sidelined in the Namek arc. First man down in the Android arc, did nothing in the Boo arc.

Yamcha’s biggest moment since his debut was beating the Invisible man.

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Re: What about Super disservice with characters like Goten, Trunks and Yamcha?

Post by precita » Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:55 pm

lancerman wrote:
The_Destroyer wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: His not a character that deserves one, though I would say that episode 70 more than makes up for lack of presence in the show(I would say it easily trumps any of Tenshinhan's appearances in Super by a mile).
Sorry and I get what you’re saying, but fuck the baseball episode. Hate how it’s always brought up as Yamcha’s “moment”. The dude’s a Z fighter, can’t he get his moment in a fight or something?
No he can’t. He got jobbed our to Roshi in the first tournament, he got sidelined the entire 2nd tournament, was irrelevant in the King Piccolo arc, was beaten early in the 3rd tournament, blown up by a Saibamen within seconds of being relevant in the Saiyan arc, sidelined in the Namek arc. First man down in the Android arc, did nothing in the Boo arc.

Yamcha’s biggest moment since his debut was beating the Invisible man.
He was in all 4 Dragonball tournaments and every fight he was in was fun to watch before he went down. Of course he's not going to win, most characters have no major wins in the show after their first few appearances outside Goku/Vegeta.

And Yamcha Vs. Tien fight was one of the best fights of that tournament, he didn't get sidelined it's just that it was the first match.

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Re: What about Super disservice with characters like Goten, Trunks and Yamcha?

Post by Lionel » Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:03 pm

The strongest arguments against Yamcha reentering the fray are that his priorities have moved beyond just gratuitous self-improvement style ambition to be the best, that it's not feasible anymore, or because his reputation is too checkered to justify the effort. With that being said, you could say that enough of the fans would be okay to see him try his hand at fighting once again. After all, if there wasn't any interest in the earthlings then they wouldn't have been brought back twice now in Super to fight.

I don't think writing for one or two more additional protagonists, as a minimum, would be too much to ask. Question is -- who would they be? Well going by portfolio, aptitude, and commitment, I would say Piccolo and Tenshinhan; mind you, there is some favouritism with those proposals. Yamcha would be appreciated as well but I doubt he would get picked for such a thinly possible opportunity over the likes of Krillin or Piccolo.

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Re: What about Super disservice with characters like Goten, Trunks and Yamcha?

Post by Exline » Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:08 pm

Lionel wrote:The strongest arguments against Yamcha reentering the fray are that his priorities have moved beyond just gratuitous self-improvement style ambition to be the best, that it's not feasible anymore, or because his reputation is too checkered to justify the effort. With that being said, you could say that enough of the fans would be okay to see him try his hand at fighting once again. After all, if there wasn't any interest in the earthlings then they wouldn't have been brought back twice now in Super to fight.

I don't think writing for one or two more additional protagonists, as a minimum, would be too much to ask. Question is -- who would they be? Well going by portfolio, aptitude, and commitment, I would say Piccolo and Tenshinhan; mind you, there is some favouritism with those proposals. Yamcha would be appreciated as well but I doubt he would get picked for such a thinly possible opportunity over the likes of Krillin or Piccolo.
It's odd you mentioned Tenshinhan, I'd believe if any of the Earthlings, Krillin would be the most likely candidate to return and become a major protagonist along the Z fighters.

But I still feel the Earthlings should definitely be left behind. This should be the last time they're involved. I am honestly tired of seeing them be mistreated and rather they not go through anymore harm from the Toei writing staff. The only earthling that we need is Uub.

I want to keep pushing for Piccolo to regain his drive for fighting again. He has the potential honestly.

But I have a question, what if we let go of the past Z-Fighters and pave way for a new generation? Maybe Caulifla, Kale, and Cabba could join the cast? I don't see Hit being a likely candidate. Maybe Jiren and Toppo? Shit I would love if Toppo would become a Z-Fighter.

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Re: What about Super disservice with characters like Goten, Trunks and Yamcha?

Post by Lionel » Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:31 pm

Exline wrote:
Lionel wrote:The strongest arguments against Yamcha reentering the fray are that his priorities have moved beyond just gratuitous self-improvement style ambition to be the best, that it's not feasible anymore, or because his reputation is too checkered to justify the effort. With that being said, you could say that enough of the fans would be okay to see him try his hand at fighting once again. After all, if there wasn't any interest in the earthlings then they wouldn't have been brought back twice now in Super to fight.

I don't think writing for one or two more additional protagonists, as a minimum, would be too much to ask. Question is -- who would they be? Well going by portfolio, aptitude, and commitment, I would say Piccolo and Tenshinhan; mind you, there is some favouritism with those proposals. Yamcha would be appreciated as well but I doubt he would get picked for such a thinly possible opportunity over the likes of Krillin or Piccolo.
It's odd you mentioned Tenshinhan, I'd believe if any of the Earthlings, Krillin would be the most likely candidate to return and become a major protagonist along the Z fighters.

But I still feel the Earthlings should definitely be left behind. This should be the last time they're involved. I am honestly tired of seeing them be mistreated and rather they not go through anymore harm from the Toei writing staff. The only earthling that we need is Uub.

I want to keep pushing for Piccolo to regain his drive for fighting again. He has the potential honestly.

But I have a question, what if we let go of the past Z-Fighters and pave way for a new generation? Maybe Caulifla, Kale, and Cabba could join the cast? I don't see Hit being a likely candidate. Maybe Jiren and Toppo? Shit I would love if Toppo would become a Z-Fighter.
Well I might just be a smidgen partial to Tenshinhan. I think when it comes to abilities he edges out Krillin with the possibilities made feasible with his Shiyoken, the Dodonpa, the multi-sidedness of his third eye, and the ability to project a ki beam from said third optical receptor. When it comes to brand name and familiarity with the audience, Krillin would make for the better option.

I'm not the biggest fan of the Saiyans. Cabba is the only who I've grown to like and it's because of his modesty and his ability to recognise his own shortcomings which not every fan may enjoy. However, I do agree that Toei needs to stop with this quasi-limbo state where they're allowing the earthlings to reappear on battlefields as combatants only to pull the rug out from under them despite some potential implications made of them in the build up to the scene. If you're not going all the way with a proper narrational investment then leave them to enjoy retirement. I question the appeal of a series centralised around Goku and Vegeta alone but if that's what they want then don't mince words or presentation.

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Re: What about Super disservice with characters like Goten, Trunks and Yamcha?

Post by The_Destroyer » Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:40 pm

lancerman wrote:
The_Destroyer wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: His not a character that deserves one, though I would say that episode 70 more than makes up for lack of presence in the show(I would say it easily trumps any of Tenshinhan's appearances in Super by a mile).
Sorry and I get what you’re saying, but fuck the baseball episode. Hate how it’s always brought up as Yamcha’s “moment”. The dude’s a Z fighter, can’t he get his moment in a fight or something?
No he can’t. He got jobbed our to Roshi in the first tournament, he got sidelined the entire 2nd tournament, was irrelevant in the King Piccolo arc, was beaten early in the 3rd tournament, blown up by a Saibamen within seconds of being relevant in the Saiyan arc, sidelined in the Namek arc. First man down in the Android arc, did nothing in the Boo arc.

Yamcha’s biggest moment since his debut was beating the Invisible man.
Oh wow he lost a bunch of fights, big deal, it’s not like everyone in the ToP had a perfect track record either. And at least Yamcha was there during the Android and Sayain arcs. Where the fuck was Roshi?

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