Super has done a lot of things better than DBZ

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Lujin_16
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Super has done a lot of things better than DBZ

Post by Lujin_16 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:46 am

Funny how some people always compare Super with GT because they think Z was a masterpiece or because they are blind of nostalgia


1. Expanded Universes
2. More In-Depth Fighting Strategy
3. Bigger stakes
4. Black Goku & Zamasu not the typical Z villains
5. Callbacks to Dragonball
6. a lot more funny moments than Z
7. they take their time to introduce a new villain(If Super comes back)
8. UNPREDICTABILITY
9. Goku and Vegeta are the only ones who knows the ssg form and does not the same mistake like Z with everyone knowing the super saiyan form
10. Ultra instinct is more interesting and mysterious than any other form in Z i mean Goku still does not know how to do it
11. Super has changed Frieza in a badass again i mean we all know how Z destroyed his character after the Frieza arc easily by Future Trunks
12. C-17 is so much more enjoyable as character in Super than in Z
13. The black Goku arc was the first arc with no happy ending
14. introduced the biggest tournament in Dragonball

I'm not hating i grow up with Dragonball Z and of course i miss some things like the Blood in Super etc

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Re: Super has done a lot of things better than DBZ

Post by Professor Freeza » Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:55 am

I agree with everything.

And here people say GT is better than Super by miles.


:crazy:

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Re: Super has done a lot of things better than DBZ

Post by mute_proxy » Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:08 am

Every point has a counterpoint though, Super did a lot of what DB and Z did, just on a bigger scale, "scale" is not that great of an argument. And when you know that everything's leading to EoZ, the stakes don't really exist.

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Re: Super has done a lot of things better than DBZ

Post by sintzu » Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:17 am

Lujin_16 wrote:

1. Expanded Universes
2. More In-Depth Fighting Strategy
Good points.
3. Bigger stakes
This is only natural as it takes place after Z.
4. Black Goku & Zamasu not the typical Z villains
True but that doesn't mean Z's weren't good as Freeza is just as good as these 2.
5. Callbacks to Dragonball
It had too many callbacks.
6. a lot more funny moments than Z
That's debatable.
7. they take their time to introduce a new villain(If Super comes back)
There definitely was more veriaty in who they fought.
8. UNPREDICTABILITY
Z was also like that if you watched it for the first time.
9. Goku and Vegeta are the only ones who knows the ssg form and does not the same mistake like Z with everyone knowing the super saiyan form
Very good point.
10. Ultra instinct is more interesting and mysterious than any other form in Z
I agree with this as well.
11. Super has changed Frieza in a badass again i mean we all know how Z destroyed his character after the Frieza arc easily by Future Trunks
That's debatable as I don't think Z hurt him.
12. C-17 is so much more enjoyable as character in Super than in Z
He was more of a hero in Super and had more screen time so that's natural.
13. The black Goku arc was the first arc with no happy ending
Goku dying at the end of Cell and everyone dead at the end of the Saiyan arc wasn't eaxctly happy.
14. introduced the biggest tournament in Dragonball
In doing so it wasted a lot of potential due to the other universes not being introduced before.

I'm not hating i grow up with Dragonball Z and of course i miss some things like the Blood in Super etc
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Re: Super has done a lot of things better than DBZ

Post by The Patrolman » Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:37 am

Lujin_16 wrote:Funny how some people always compare Super with GT because they think Z was a masterpiece or because they are blind of nostalgia


1. Expanded Universes
2. More In-Depth Fighting Strategy
3. Bigger stakes
4. Black Goku & Zamasu not the typical Z villains
5. Callbacks to Dragonball
6. a lot more funny moments than Z
7. they take their time to introduce a new villain(If Super comes back)
8. UNPREDICTABILITY
9. Goku and Vegeta are the only ones who knows the ssg form and does not the same mistake like Z with everyone knowing the super saiyan form
10. Ultra instinct is more interesting and mysterious than any other form in Z i mean Goku still does not know how to do it
11. Super has changed Frieza in a badass again i mean we all know how Z destroyed his character after the Frieza arc easily by Future Trunks
12. C-17 is so much more enjoyable as character in Super than in Z
13. The black Goku arc was the first arc with no happy ending
14. introduced the biggest tournament in Dragonball

I'm not hating i grow up with Dragonball Z and of course i miss some things like the Blood in Super etc
1. Fair Point
2. You need to clarify with that statement
3. Again clarify
4. Another fair point
5. I mean so did Z
6. Humor is subjective
7. The only one that they did that to was Zamasu. Even then it doesn't compare to how Z introduce Freeza or Cell.
8. Right because nobody saw U7 winning the tournament and bringing the other universes back
9. How is the other Saiyans learning SSJ a bad thing. Atleast they earned the form. Its not like they easily obtained it by having a tingle in their back.
10. I mean Goku not knowing a form that he MASTERED is bullshit nonetheless
11. I mean Freeza getting destroyed by Future Trunks didn't really harm his character in any shape or form. If you're going by him being easily beaten by him then you should also take in account that Toppo did the same thing.
12. Fair Point
13. Not true. The Saiyan Arc ending was most of the main cast being slaughtered and main villain getting away over a selfish decision created by the main character
14. The biggest tournament which introduced the most BS power ups, boring and annoying characters, and the worst pacing in the series. Not to mention it was all style and no substance
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Re: Super has done a lot of things better than DBZ

Post by Hawk9211 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:41 am

sintzu wrote:
Lujin_16 wrote:

1. Expanded Universes
So,far they have done nothing interesting with them and yes it is a hyperbole.
2. More In-Depth Fighting Strategy
Debatable,especially if we count og db which introduced mafuba.At the end of day,power still overcomes everything.
3. Bigger stakes
This is only natural as it takes place after Z.
4. Black Goku & Zamasu not the typical Z villains
True but that doesn't mean Z's weren't good as Freeza is just as good as these 2.
5. Callbacks to Dragonball
It had too many callbacks.
6. a lot more funny moments than Z
That's debatable.
7. they take their time to introduce a new villain(If Super comes back)
There definitely was more veriaty in who they fought.
8. UNPREDICTABILITY
Z was also like that if you watched it for the first time.
9. Goku and Vegeta are the only ones who knows the ssg form and does not the same mistake like Z with everyone knowing the super saiyan form
Very good point.
10. Ultra instinct is more interesting and mysterious than any other form in Z
I agree with this as well.
11. Super has changed Frieza in a badass again i mean we all know how Z destroyed his character after the Frieza arc easily by Future Trunks
That's debatable as I don't think Z hurt him.
12. C-17 is so much more enjoyable as character in Super than in Z
He was more of a hero in Super and had more screen time so that's natural.
13. The black Goku arc was the first arc with no happy ending
Goku dying at the end of Cell and everyone dead at the end of the Saiyan arc wasn't eaxctly happy.
14. introduced the biggest tournament in Dragonball
In doing so it wasted a lot of potential due to the other universes not being introduced before.

I'm not hating i grow up with Dragonball Z and of course i miss some things like the Blood in Super etc
Why power levels are important?
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Re: Super has done a lot of things better than DBZ

Post by Lionel » Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:49 am

Agreed with most of the points for reasons similar to what were explained through other posts. On the other hand, Super definitely has its share of faults like a volatile see-sawing of power fluctuations through feats and, with the most recent arc, a hollowed interpretation of the phrase "low stamina". Adding to that, the overarching narrational framework has become narrowed down to just Goku and Vegeta. Z was not perfect in this department, but the variety of faces whom we followed was more pronounced. There was an eagerness amongst a greater number of fighters to do better. If they wanted to double down on a new ensemble cast premiering with Freeza and Jiren then that would be one thing. We don't really know the future of the series' story and its cast of protagonists. Hopefully more opportunity is given to others.

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Re: Super has done a lot of things better than DBZ

Post by Bullza » Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:02 am

The fights have definitely been better in Super than Z and that's a major thing for a show like this.

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Re: Super has done a lot of things better than DBZ

Post by Bryesque » Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:11 am

People seem to forget that the series/franchise as a whole has never been flawless. Most (or all) of the flaws and problems I see complaints about in Super existed in Z as well. A lot of this is subjective, and Z has the automatic benefit of nostalgia. But stuff like "bad" (or more accurately, rushed) animation, inconsistency in "rules" and writing, and variance in tone were all over this franchise from day one.

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Re: Super has done a lot of things better than DBZ

Post by Hawk9211 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:29 am

Bryesque wrote:People seem to forget that the series/franchise as a whole has never been flawless. Most (or all) of the flaws and problems I see complaints about in Super existed in Z as well. A lot of this is subjective, and Z has the automatic benefit of nostalgia. But stuff like "bad" (or more accurately, rushed) animation, inconsistency in "rules" and writing, and variance in tone were all over this franchise from day one.
No,franchise is flawless.But is it a sin to criticise and expect improvement?
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Re: Super has done a lot of things better than DBZ

Post by PFM18 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:22 am

You forgot some other things Super did better than Z imo.

1. Had real motivations behind the villians and had several fights with differences in ideologies involved rather than just the generic "good vs evil" bullshit
2. Involved the other characters more than in Z.
3. Doesnt make Vegeta a pathetic weakling like in Z.
4. Actually has arcs ending in losing ultimately making the series feel more natural and less predictable.
5. Better animation than Z outside of the first two arcs

People often call something "bad writing" if they domt understand it and Super is a victim of this. (And people being biased from their nostalgia)
Last edited by PFM18 on Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Super has done a lot of things better than DBZ

Post by PsionicWarrior » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:46 am

Lujin_16 wrote:Funny how some people always compare Super with GT because they think Z was a masterpiece or because they are blind of nostalgia


1. Expanded Universes
Yes but rushed it, there is a lot more to explore but we didn't explore that much any of it.
2. More In-Depth Fighting Strategy
Depends.
3. Bigger stakes
But lower tension.
4. Black Goku & Zamasu not the typical Z villains
Black Goku kinda made me remember Ginyu hehe, but yes Zamasu was really something.
5. Callbacks to Dragonball
Well, DB cannot really make comebacks to DB can it haha lol
6. a lot more funny moments than Z
Both shows have their funny moments.
7. they take their time to introduce a new villain(If Super comes back)
So did Z?
8. UNPREDICTABILITY
So did Z?
9. Goku and Vegeta are the only ones who knows the ssg form and does not the same mistake like Z with everyone knowing the super saiyan form
I didn't really see that as a mistake but I agree it was better like this. ....... Screw that! I wanted Gohan to get it too! :P
10. Ultra instinct is more interesting and mysterious than any other form in Z i mean Goku still does not know how to do it
UI is awesome no doubt, but so were first SSJ forms when they appeared in Z IMO
11. Super has changed Frieza in a badass again i mean we all know how Z destroyed his character after the Frieza arc easily by Future Trunks
I think you're exaggerating a bit here, but for sure Super did a great job with Freeza.
12. C-17 is so much more enjoyable as character in Super than in Z
The weirdest thing, they made him the MVP of the ToP but damn it's like they went to dig for Taoi Pai Pai lol
13. The black Goku arc was the first arc with no happy ending
Not really, but it has one of the darkest endings (if not the darkest ending) of the series yeah.
14. introduced the biggest tournament in Dragonball
But execution was a mess for the most part.
I'm not hating i grow up with Dragonball Z and of course i miss some things like the Blood in Super etc
They can correct this, like the last Goku/Jiren fight they made him spill white for the blood, I prefer the blood but it worked. There is many fights in Super where you don't really feel the hits and that's not only because of lack of blood.

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Re: Super has done a lot of things better than DBZ

Post by Diccolo-420 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:58 pm

I'm going to respond to this post since people have already addressed the OP
PFM18 wrote:You forgot some other things Super did better than Z imo.

1. Had real motivations behind the villians and had several fights with differences in ideologies involved rather than just the generic "good vs evil" bullshit
Vegeta and Nappa wanted to sell the earth to make a boatload of money. Frieza wanted immortality so he could continue running his empire forever. Cell wanted to test his strength and become the best he could possibly be, abliet in a twisted fashion. I'm not saying they weren't evil, but this definitely wasn't just "derr I'm fighting against goku because I'm evil"
2. Involved the other characters more than in Z.
Really? The only ones that got more involvement were the pilaf gang, if anything super regressed most characters beyond background roles. Trunks and Goten were useless other than the copy vegeta arc, and Trunks for the black arc somewhat. Gohan was useless, and ended up being a colossal let down in the ToP, Buu was a joke, and pretty much every other Z fighter wasn't involved anymore other than the Saiyans. Introducing characters is a whole different story
3. Doesnt make Vegeta a pathetic weakling like in Z.
Vegeta had Goku beat in the Saiyan saga if it weren't for Kaioken, Vegeta was stronger than Goku at the time he was healing in the Frieza arc as he faced off with final form frieza, Vegeta was stronger than Goku with his acquisition of SSJ, and Vegeta had goku beat in the cell arc when he discovered his super vegeta form. The only time he didn't catch up or beat Goku in Z was in the buu arc and the hilarious ass pull of super saiyan 3
4. Actually has arcs ending in losing ultimately making the series feel more natural and less predictable.
The only one that did that was black. Z you had most of the z-fighters dead at the end of the Saiyan Saga, planet namek got blow up in the Frieza saga, goku was dead in the cell saga. The only truly "happy ending" was the buu arc. Sure they didn't "lose", but you could argue they didn't lose at all in Super either. Why? Because U7 still exists, Zamasu is erased, U6 doesn't hold the U7 Earth, Frieza and Beerus didn't blow up Earth.
5. Better animation than Z outside of the first two arcs
Debatable. There was still some extremely lackadaisical animation in almost every other arc, episode 123 is a fine example of that.

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Re: Super has done a lot of things better than DBZ

Post by Metalwario64 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:02 pm

I remember when most people basically predicted the outcome of the Tournament of Power, and everyone especially knew it was obvious Freeza would play a key role in it when they tried to make us forget he wasn't knocked out.
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Re: Super has done a lot of things better than DBZ

Post by Vegeta_Sama » Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:22 pm

Metalwario64 wrote:I remember when most people basically predicted the outcome of the Tournament of Power, and everyone especially knew it was obvious Freeza would play a key role in it when they tried to make us forget he wasn't knocked out.
At least nobody predicted 17 beign the one to make the wish
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Re: Super has done a lot of things better than DBZ

Post by Metalwario64 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:39 pm

Vegeta_Sama wrote:
Metalwario64 wrote:I remember when most people basically predicted the outcome of the Tournament of Power, and everyone especially knew it was obvious Freeza would play a key role in it when they tried to make us forget he wasn't knocked out.
At least nobody predicted 17 beign the one to make the wish
Yeah, though him being one of the last standing participants made his "sacrifice" really stupid, in my opinion.
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Re: Super has done a lot of things better than DBZ

Post by Vegeta_Sama » Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:42 pm

Metalwario64 wrote:
Vegeta_Sama wrote:
Metalwario64 wrote:I remember when most people basically predicted the outcome of the Tournament of Power, and everyone especially knew it was obvious Freeza would play a key role in it when they tried to make us forget he wasn't knocked out.
At least nobody predicted 17 beign the one to make the wish
Yeah, though him being one of the last standing participants made his "sacrifice" really stupid, in my opinion.
I agree. That moment will not be nearly as powerful on rewatch.
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Re: Super has done a lot of things better than DBZ

Post by sunsetshimmer » Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:53 pm

Lujin_16 wrote:Funny how some people always compare Super with GT because they think Z was a masterpiece or because they are blind of nostalgia


1. Expanded Universes
2. More In-Depth Fighting Strategy
3. Bigger stakes
4. Black Goku & Zamasu not the typical Z villains
5. Callbacks to Dragonball
6. a lot more funny moments than Z
7. they take their time to introduce a new villain(If Super comes back)
8. UNPREDICTABILITY
9. Goku and Vegeta are the only ones who knows the ssg form and does not the same mistake like Z with everyone knowing the super saiyan form
10. Ultra instinct is more interesting and mysterious than any other form in Z i mean Goku still does not know how to do it
11. Super has changed Frieza in a badass again i mean we all know how Z destroyed his character after the Frieza arc easily by Future Trunks
12. C-17 is so much more enjoyable as character in Super than in Z
13. The black Goku arc was the first arc with no happy ending
14. introduced the biggest tournament in Dragonball

I'm not hating i grow up with Dragonball Z and of course i miss some things like the Blood in Super etc
1. It means DBS>DBGT>DBZ>DB because every next series expanded DB world right?
2. True. DBZ is overall the worst series when it comes to any tactics. It's mostly brainless fighting.
3. You couldn't feel it even for a second tho (DBS being a midquel is a big factor here because you know that EVERYTHING will be ok)
4. Because they are ripoff of every possible DB/Z/GT villain
5. Some of them were awful fanservice, but some of them were good. The same goes for GT tho.
6. The same goes for GT. DBZ overall had the least amount of gags. Buu saga is the only exception.
7. Not sure what you mean and how is it better than Z and introductions of Vegeta, Frieza and Buu
8. You can't be serious...
9. The same goes for SSJ4 and it's very subjective if its better than Z or not. There are people who would prefer Gohan getting new form as well.
10. Can agree with that
11. No. Frieza after Namek is trash and overused. No matter if it's, DBS, GT or movies. I can't look at him.
12. He became to calm imo but he got some personality for sure
13. Zamasu is dead and everyone is alive so it's still kind of happy ending, especially for present timeline (it's 100% happy). it only might be bad ending for Trunks but he got another version of his future anyway.
14. So? It's like saying DBZ is better because it had more huge villains or something like that.

I totally agree that DBZ is overrated tho and people pretend it's holy and without issues. DBS have few things that are better than in Z obviously. Every DB series does.
Professor Freeza wrote:I agree with everything.

And here people say GT is better than Super by miles.


:crazy:
It's better than both Super and DBZ. Now get triggered.
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Re: Super has done a lot of things better than DBZ

Post by SuperCyan2 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:55 pm

Lujin_16 wrote:Funny how some people always compare Super with GT because they think Z was a masterpiece or because they are blind of nostalgia


1. Expanded Universes
2. More In-Depth Fighting Strategy
3. Bigger stakes
4. Black Goku & Zamasu not the typical Z villains
5. Callbacks to Dragonball
6. a lot more funny moments than Z
7. they take their time to introduce a new villain(If Super comes back)
8. UNPREDICTABILITY
9. Goku and Vegeta are the only ones who knows the ssg form and does not the same mistake like Z with everyone knowing the super saiyan form
10. Ultra instinct is more interesting and mysterious than any other form in Z i mean Goku still does not know how to do it
11. Super has changed Frieza in a badass again i mean we all know how Z destroyed his character after the Frieza arc easily by Future Trunks
12. C-17 is so much more enjoyable as character in Super than in Z
13. The black Goku arc was the first arc with no happy ending
14. introduced the biggest tournament in Dragonball

I'm not hating i grow up with Dragonball Z and of course i miss some things like the Blood in Super etc
1. The whole universe thing was just milked to death and they kept on increasing more universes. I couldn't careless for it.
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2. Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z had much better artistic and choreography than in Super.
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3. Vegeta attempted to destroy Earth, Freeza attempted to destroy Namek, Cell attempted to destroy Earth and Majin Boo attempted to destroy the entire universe (IIRC). In Super? If No. 17's wish had been selfish, the entire universe would have been eradicated. So, I'd say the stakes were much bigger in Z.
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4. Black Gokû is just another Tullece but Zamasu was a somewhat original character. Not that I care much here, anyway.
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5. It kept on relying on nostalgia to keep its fans interested, shocker! lol
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6. Eh, I disagree. The Majin Boo arc cracked me a ton, Super as a whole? Not really.
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7. The villains in Super were unimaginative and rehashes like how Dragon Ball Z had but somewhat worse.
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8. Not sure how that's an argument, a show/movie relies on the viewers to expect unpredictability but what happened in the end in Super? Son Gokû still won.
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9. They're after all pure-blood Saiyan race and the two most important characters of Dragon Ball so they were the chosen ones to have the Super Saiyan God form which didn't exist in Classic Dragon Ball.
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10. Eeh, not really. No, I wholeheartedly disagree. I'd rather take Super Saiyan 2 and 4 over UI/MUI thing.
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11. Super turned Freeza into a golden dildo toy, then to a sort of good guy and then to the normal villain. Wow.
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12. No. 17 was always a side character so can't say I care.
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13. Hm, no. It was meant to be a "dark" story but ended up being as bland as it begun.
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14. Quantity does not equate quality so why bother focusing on the length of it? Come on. In my opinion, that tournament was boring as hell.
-

Well, that's it for me.
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Re: Super has done a lot of things better than DBZ

Post by FortuneSSJ » Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:19 pm

Metalwario64 wrote:I remember when most people basically predicted the outcome of the Tournament of Power, and everyone especially knew it was obvious Freeza would play a key role in it when they tried to make us forget he wasn't knocked out.
Those people were the ones saying Goku would win before Freeza went missing. If you shoot in all directions, the chances of something being "predictable" is high.

All Universes being revived was predicted by the majority, but it's not like the characters were keeping that as a secret. Vegeta said he would do it and I think it's obvious Goku would wish for that too.
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