Super has done a lot of things better than DBZ

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Super has done a lot of things better than DBZ

Post by Shuby » Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:38 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Lujin_16 wrote: 1. Expanded Universes
This has been terrible world-building so far. The concept itself? It's fine. In fact, it's more than fine: it's great. The opportunity to showcase a variety of different universes, with different characters, different lore, different locations, different energy sources, different physics if you get creative with it. The way it actually has been presented so far? Terrible. We haven't actually explored any of them. Rather, we've already limited the scope of the multiverse by not only placing a number on the number of universes, but by also introducing all of their strongest beings at once. The creatures in these universes, along with their Gods, could have presented Goku & co with a huge, difficult ladder to climb, but it turns out Goku was already stronger than 99% of them regardless and surpassed the Gods in a few arcs. The universes also fall into the same pitfall that a lot of sci-fi series fall into: that is, you present us with a planet that could have been scaled down to a city or a country and nothing changes in the story because the planet is lacking in culture, language, variety and overall depth. Only this problem is on a larger scale, as multiple universes are stripped down to one or two characteristics (U2 and U3 are extreme cases of this, with seemingly their only traits being "beauty" and "technology"). Further, the Gods of Destruction lose all the mysticism that made Beerus' introduction into the cosmos so interesting when you already present a tournament where seemingly the mortals all already know and have contact with their respective GoDs. Though, I admit, this is a minor complaint. Still, the lack of any kind of depth to these universes and the characters that come from them make this expansion in the lore almost useless.
Lujin_16 wrote: 2. More In-Depth Fighting Strategy
I would give you this, because I agreed with you a while back, but I thought some more about it, and no, that's not really the case. First off, DB and Z both have some kind of basic strategy and tactics being implemented into the fights. This is undeniable. Second, while DBS may be more creative in regards to the abilities and the depth of the strategies presented, it doesn't really change the formula at all, because power still trumps everything else 90% of the time. Remember Toppo's Hakai and how it was hinted at in his episode that they'd need some kind of strategy to get around it? Yeah, it got punched away one episode later.
Lujin_16 wrote:3. Bigger stakes
I mean, this is just objectively incorrect. We have the ending of the series right in front of us. We know everyone who matters lives. The only characters who serve as exceptions to this are Beerus & Whis, returning characters like Freeza/17/Trunks and any other new characters, who I'd say matter if the series made an effort to make us care about them, but they're dispatched quickly in an episode like we saw in the ToP. Still, it's depressing when compared to the original series when anyone could die at anytime and you never had the certainty they would return regardless of the number of Dragon Balls there were.
Lujin_16 wrote:4. Black Goku & Zamasu not the typical Z villains
If the only thing positive about them is that they're not "typical", then sure, I'll give this to you. But I'm not exactly sure this makes them any better than the Z villains, considering Zamasu's archetype has been done much better elsewhere in the 20 years between the two series.
Lujin_16 wrote: 5. Callbacks to Dragonball
Pointless callbacks that do nothing more than point out a much cooler event that happened in the original series mean nothing. Callbacks are cool ideas when they're used to demonstrate some kind of contrast between the present situation and the past situation. An example of a good callback is Goku and Vegeta's poses at the end of #131 because Vegeta and Goku are now on equal footing and they're fighting as friends, not as enemies. It's too conservative of an example, but it gets the job done because it actually has some weight to it. But most of the other moments in Super that reference the original series are just pointless homages that you can, in no way, tie to the original scene; so it feels more like the series is trying to piggyback off of the success of the previous series rather than anything else.
Lujin_16 wrote: 6. a lot more funny moments than Z
I'm not exactly sure this is quantifiable. Even so, Z was a lot longer and the Majin Boo arc was mostly comedic, so I'd have a harder time believing this.
Lujin_16 wrote: 7. they take their time to introduce a new villain(If Super comes back)
Not exactly sure what you mean by this. Most Super antagonists are introduced right at the start of the arc. It took Cell and Boo some time to even make their first appearance.
Lujin_16 wrote: 8. UNPREDICTABILITY
Again, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this. How is the series unpredictable when we know most of the characters will live and nothing bad will happen to them? It's certainly not unpredictable when it comes to stakes. Is it unpredictable when it comes to the actual plot developments? Sure, but so were Z's. I'm afraid this seems more like a case of confirmation bias than anything. When you watched Z for the first time, unless someone told you what happened, you wouldn't have predicted a lot of the events that happened. Surely, you wouldn't have predicted Trunks' first appearance, or Cell's, or Kid Boo blowing up the Earth, or Goku being an alien, or Freeza impaling Kuririn, so on and so forth.
Lujin_16 wrote:9. Goku and Vegeta are the only ones who knows the ssg form and does not the same mistake like Z with everyone knowing the super saiyan form
This is a positive that immediately gets overshadowed by the hugest negative of all, which is that ANY character can jump years of harsh training under severe and special conditions and circumstances to get as strong as Goku and Vegeta because the plot demands them to be, thus making Goku and Vegeta's efforts less meaningful and the SSG/SSB forms less special and impressive as a result.
Lujin_16 wrote:10. Ultra instinct is more interesting and mysterious than any other form in Z i mean Goku still does not know how to do it
I'll agree to this, even if I feel like Ultra Instinct manifesting itself through not one, but two different transformations is incredibly stupid considering it's just supposed to be a technique that amps your reaction speed, not your entire stats and changes your physical appearance.
Lujin_16 wrote:11. Super has changed Frieza in a badass again i mean we all know how Z destroyed his character after the Frieza arc easily by Future Trunks
While I agree that the Tournament of Power has done wonders to Freeza, I won't agree that future Trunks destroyed Freeza's characters. The movies and filler may have done it, but nothing 'canon'. On the other hand, I believe that what has tarnished Freeza as a character most of all comes directly from Resurrection 'F', which is a part of the modern Dragon Ball revival and has been adapted in Super.
Lujin_16 wrote: 12. C-17 is so much more enjoyable as character in Super than in Z
I agree, though I feel like #17 has been over-utilized and needlessly shoved into scenes he had no place being in.
Lujin_16 wrote:13. The black Goku arc was the first arc with no happy ending
I mean, it wasn't really 'happy' but it wasn't a depressing ending either. It was bittersweet. But so was the Cell arc; after all, Goku died.
Lujin_16 wrote:14. introduced the biggest tournament in Dragonball
Sure, it was the biggest, but considering the large number of structural problems it had, which are objectively verifiable, then I don't really think it was for the best.
This guy gets it, from early on problems with the animation to the structural problems, Super has been mediocre for the most part with some good bits here and there.

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Re: Super has done a lot of things better than DBZ

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:59 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: He successfully gathered the Super Dragon Balls, massive planet-sized orbs scattered across Universe 6 and Universe 7
He did that before he fought the characters, that is just setting up his power. Its no different than with Freeza training for 4 months to get golden. It was written in as a pretense for his immortality and getting Goku's body.
SupremeKai25 wrote:He successfully stole Goku's body;
Off screen.
SupremeKai25 wrote:He successfully killed Goku and his family;
In a flash back.
SupremeKai25 wrote:He successfully wished for immortality;
Pretense before the arc.
SupremeKai25 wrote:He successfully destroyed several mortal civilizations across the Multiverse
In a flashback. Again, nobody could even try to stop him in a plot-pretense. Cell & Freeza sought their goals while people stood between them, and their success created the threat. Zamasu did everything in preparation and was made generic because of that. Even Super Buu had to work for his goal in absorbing Gohan & Gotenks.
SupremeKai25 wrote:He utterly crushed the Z Fighters twice
While the scaling in the arc didn't make sense, he is required to to even be competent. All the villains did that.
Freeza wrecked everyone before Goku showed up, Killed Krillin twice, Cell beat Piccolo twice, and Trunks Twice etc. The more the heroes lose, the more drama for them to get strong is essential.
SupremeKai25 wrote: He transcended time and space
In the anime, but I cant say that made sense to credit. Do we even know if immortality works like that or if Toei invented that? He was just killable in the manga like Buu.
SupremeKai25 wrote:He merged with the fabric of reality and attempted to become the Multiverse and Justice and Order itself
That was a bit ridiculous, and wasn't even in his plan to do it. It literally came out of absolutely no where. What justice could he possibly bring from just being a cackling face in the sky? At least in the manga if he made infinite duplicates of himself then his universe only being made for gods (or himself to his contradiction killing the others just to initiate his plan), he could at least have his own existence be the one he approves of. That would fit in better with his narcissistic goal, than just being a face in space and nothing else. Super didn't handle that ending well at all. That "He merged with the multiverse" sounds cool to people on paper but its not when presented.
SupremeKai25 wrote:He was so powerful that it took the King of All himself to arrive into the battlefield.
Maybe, but thats only in the anime. The plot needed to introduce Zeno this way, and why they didn't even try to wish the timeline back which was out character for everyone, but they needed to make it clear Zeno was all powerful. Goku just laughed it off, which was out of character for even him.
SupremeKai25 wrote:And even then, while Frieza's, Cell's and Buu's destruction has been undone by the Dragon Balls, Zamasu's destruction will never be undone by the Dragon Balls, unless the Super Dragon Balls can affect other timelines (but we don't know that).

It was permanent because it segwayed Zeno in. Everything in Super had an infamous trend of everything else being immediately undone as soon as they failed.
SupremeKai25 wrote:Even Future Trunks cries and admits that he lost and failed to protect his world.

Which was an odd ending, considering he was the only one upset about that. Everyone else was just eating and celebrating. The arc ending itself had screwed priorities.
SupremeKai25 wrote:Zamasu accomplished much more than Frieza, Cell and Buu combined. He is the most popular and known antagonist in Super, probably even more popular than Hit and Jiren.

It helps to have flashback invincibility, and asspulls to overwhelm everyone right? He also the most popular antagonist because he was the only original one OF super, and like I said he has more memes than he does actual appreciation.
Last edited by SingleFringe&Sparks on Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.

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Re: Super has done a lot of things better than DBZ

Post by Miracles » Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:20 pm

DB and DBZ has better fights, tension, ferocity sound effects than Super. This is really all that matters in this battle story.

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Re: Super has done a lot of things better than DBZ

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:24 pm

Miracles wrote:DB and DBZ has better fights, tension, ferocity sound effects than Super. This is really all that matters in this battle story.
No. Because then we'd get fighters just endlessly fighting for the sake of it with the plot going no where and a forced ending of "friendship" beat the enemy that they overpower just to play the plot/obstacle. Hence how the TOP proves why the fights only mattering and nothing else is a bad idea. With every episode preview claiming "JJiren's going full power!"(again and again) we could have had story build up real tension. Not power vs indefinite power.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.

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Re: Super has done a lot of things better than DBZ

Post by Miracles » Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:35 pm

SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:
Miracles wrote:DB and DBZ has better fights, tension, ferocity sound effects than Super. This is really all that matters in this battle story.
No. Because then we'd get fighters just endlessly fighting for the sake of it with the plot going no where and a forced ending of "friendship" beat the enemy that they overpower just to play the plot/obstacle. Hence how the TOP proves why the fights only mattering and nothing else is a bad idea. With every episode preview claiming "JJiren's going full power!"(again and again) we could have had story build up real tension. Not power vs indefinite power.
DB and DBZ plots were simple just like Supers simple Shounen tropes. This is why their plots are overshadowed by the fighting and flash.

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Re: Super has done a lot of things better than DBZ

Post by Bergamo » Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:49 pm

Miracles wrote:
SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:
Miracles wrote:DB and DBZ has better fights, tension, ferocity sound effects than Super. This is really all that matters in this battle story.
No. Because then we'd get fighters just endlessly fighting for the sake of it with the plot going no where and a forced ending of "friendship" beat the enemy that they overpower just to play the plot/obstacle. Hence how the TOP proves why the fights only mattering and nothing else is a bad idea. With every episode preview claiming "JJiren's going full power!"(again and again) we could have had story build up real tension. Not power vs indefinite power.
DB and DBZ plots were simple just like Supers simple Shounen tropes. This is why their plots are overshadowed by the fighting and flash.
Isn't it a bit silly to say that an intriguing plot and dazzling fight scenes can't co-exist. If you name a fight in DB, DBZ, or DBS, I will be able to tell you exactly when and why it happened, because narrative and fight scenes are intertwined.
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Re: Super has done a lot of things better than DBZ

Post by Miracles » Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:25 pm

Bergamo wrote:
Miracles wrote:
SingleFringe&Sparks wrote: No. Because then we'd get fighters just endlessly fighting for the sake of it with the plot going no where and a forced ending of "friendship" beat the enemy that they overpower just to play the plot/obstacle. Hence how the TOP proves why the fights only mattering and nothing else is a bad idea. With every episode preview claiming "JJiren's going full power!"(again and again) we could have had story build up real tension. Not power vs indefinite power.
DB and DBZ plots were simple just like Supers simple Shounen tropes. This is why their plots are overshadowed by the fighting and flash.
Isn't it a bit silly to say that an intriguing plot and dazzling fight scenes can't co-exist. If you name a fight in DB, DBZ, or DBS, I will be able to tell you exactly when and why it happened, because narrative and fight scenes are intertwined.
I didn't say that good plot and good fights can't go together. I'm stating with Dragonball that isn't usually the case.
The show's plot is bland but the fight scenes are golden. It's what Dragonball is known for.

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Re: Super has done a lot of things better than DBZ

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:57 pm

kemuri07 wrote:wow.

For a fansite that's supposedly revolves around Dragon Ball, some of you guys are reaaaal quick to throw that franchise under the bus whenever something new and shiney comes along, huh?

All of those things that's listed comes down to one thing execution--and goddamn did DBS have some sloppy execution. On paper, sure some of those things might have made Super, if not better, but at least more interesting than DB or DBZ. But the writing has consistently failed this show from day one.

Okay, let's look at Zamasu, who I feel is one of the worst villains in the entire franchise. Yes, on paper, the idea of a Villain who sees the arrogance and brutality of humanity and not only wishes to stop them, but actually believe he's doing the right thing, is a potentially interesting premise. At least for Dragon Ball. The problem is, as the show depicts it (not your head canon), he's a one-dimensional psychopath, a boring villain who was nowhere near as interesting as Vegeta or Freeza, who had a tendency to launch into boring monologues about "oh how dare you humans stand up to the gods" again, and again, and again, and again, and *snore.* He was a dull character. At the very least, the manga at least tried to make him work, and i thought it largely succeeded.

I get it, I really do get why some of you think DBS is the better show. I mean, you're wrong, but I get it. It's shiny, it's new, therefore it's better. It's old and busted and new Hotness.

Maybe I"m being to harsh, because sometimes, I do get the impression that some of you guys are like 12 years old. Which would make a lot of sense honestly.
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Re: Super has done a lot of things better than DBZ

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:16 pm

Miracles wrote:DB and DBZ plots were simple just like Supers simple Shounen tropes. This is why their plots are overshadowed by the fighting and flash.
No, thats an opinion from the side of the fandom who only care about fights because as kids all they understood were the fights and their nostalgia has their brains wired to only recognize the series that far. Thats how you review Super because Super came down to just being this. People who like Super only claim Z was this because thats how they see it or want to try to justify Super's bland plotlessness. Z didn't run on the shallow shounen cliches of today. It predated them. Super exists where amatuer writers can just use them for reference.
Miracles wrote:The show's plot is bland but the fight scenes are golden. It's what Dragonball is known for.
No. Thats what Super IS NOW.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.

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Re: Super has done a lot of things better than DBZ

Post by Miracles » Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:32 am

SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:
Miracles wrote:DB and DBZ plots were simple just like Supers simple Shounen tropes. This is why their plots are overshadowed by the fighting and flash.
No, thats an opinion from the side of the fandom who only care about fights because as kids all they understood were the fights and their nostalgia has their brains wired to only recognize the series that far. Thats how you review Super because Super came down to just being this. People who like Super only claim Z was this because thats how they see it or want to try to justify Super's bland plotlessness. Z didn't run on the shallow shounen cliches of today. It predated them. Super exists where amatuer writers can just use them for reference.
Miracles wrote:The show's plot is bland but the fight scenes are golden. It's what Dragonball is known for.
No. Thats what Super IS NOW.
If you think I think Super is better than Z you are mistaken. Also, it isn't an opinion that DB, DBZ and Super's plot lines are vanilla.
The majority are savior arcs with no deep meaning other than the cliche shounene friends, strength, pushing limits etc that we always seen.
The only thing Super did differently in trying to get a deeper story is with the Zamasu arc. Other than that, business as usual.

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Re: Super has done a lot of things better than DBZ

Post by Bulma's Foot Masseur » Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:45 am

I like that signature moves for new characters often go beyond simply changing the size, color, and hand positions of ki blasts. In Z when you discount regenerative powers and absorption of other characters' abilities, you're left with half of the Ginyu Force, Gotenks, and Goku's incorporating of Instant Transmission into his fighting style. (And I guess Android barriers although that's something Super had to make interesting.)

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Re: Super has done a lot of things better than DBZ

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:31 am

Miracles wrote:If you think I think Super is better than Z you are mistaken. Also, it isn't an opinion that DB, DBZ and Super's plot lines are vanilla.
The majority are savior arcs with no deep meaning other than the cliche shounene friends, strength, pushing limits etc that we always seen.
The only thing Super did differently in trying to get a deeper story is with the Zamasu arc. Other than that, business as usual.
Again, too much of a generalization to equate it to Super. The themes were the same as the basis of the series but both series played these themes differently. In Z friendship meant making sacrifices. In Super friendship meant the good guys win because they have friends. Big difference. In Z strength came from work, struggle and needing enlightenment, in Super strength came from crying or family flashbacks. The cliche comes from the lesser entertaining variant and the one played straight to the genre cross series.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.

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Re: Super has done a lot of things better than DBZ

Post by Miracles » Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:21 pm

SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:
Miracles wrote:If you think I think Super is better than Z you are mistaken. Also, it isn't an opinion that DB, DBZ and Super's plot lines are vanilla.
The majority are savior arcs with no deep meaning other than the cliche shounene friends, strength, pushing limits etc that we always seen.
The only thing Super did differently in trying to get a deeper story is with the Zamasu arc. Other than that, business as usual.
Again, too much of a generalization to equate it to Super. The themes were the same as the basis of the series but both series played these themes differently. In Z friendship meant making sacrifices. In Super friendship meant the good guys win because they have friends. Big difference. In Z strength came from work, struggle and needing enlightenment, in Super strength came from crying or family flashbacks. The cliche comes from the lesser entertaining variant and the one played straight to the genre cross series.
Yes but they are still all cliche's. One showcased friendship differently than the other, was still standard.

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Re: Super has done a lot of things better than DBZ

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:57 pm

Miracles wrote:Yes but they are still all cliche's. One showcased friendship differently than the other, was still standard.
Actually how the theme is differently presented does matter. How much a meta-theme controls the plot or character strength can determine if its a cliche when a trope is played straight and justified because 'genre'. A cliche is only a cliche if its a scenario that is comparable to something else of the same genre that is played out the same for the same uninspired results. Its why Super is compared to fairytail so often now and fairytail is not a well regarded show for its writing. Super using a theme worse than its own predecessor following genre cliches in modern years, lowers the writing authenticity with Z, even if they both share the same themes. In Z friendship was about respect after having a history with another character which concluded their growth. In super friendship is usually the overtime that creates an artificial climax and nullifies the relevance of power, or the law of power. Z never if at worst rarely did that.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.

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Re: Super has done a lot of things better than DBZ

Post by Rakurai » Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:20 pm

Lujin_16 wrote:Funny how some people always compare Super with GT because they think Z was a masterpiece or because they are blind of nostalgia


1. Expanded Universes
2. More In-Depth Fighting Strategy
3. Bigger stakes
4. Black Goku & Zamasu not the typical Z villains
5. Callbacks to Dragonball
6. a lot more funny moments than Z
7. they take their time to introduce a new villain(If Super comes back)
8. UNPREDICTABILITY
9. Goku and Vegeta are the only ones who knows the ssg form and does not the same mistake like Z with everyone knowing the super saiyan form
10. Ultra instinct is more interesting and mysterious than any other form in Z i mean Goku still does not know how to do it
11. Super has changed Frieza in a badass again i mean we all know how Z destroyed his character after the Frieza arc easily by Future Trunks
12. C-17 is so much more enjoyable as character in Super than in Z
13. The black Goku arc was the first arc with no happy ending
14. introduced the biggest tournament in Dragonball

I'm not hating i grow up with Dragonball Z and of course i miss some things like the Blood in Super etc
Dang, already generalizing in the first sentence. I guess those who criticize Super for its obvious flaws are blind nostalgia fans by default.

1. Having a huge multiverse doesn't equate to a better story. Especially when the idea was underutilized (only U6, U10, and U11 were really worth a damn).

2. Maybe in the manga, but certainly not in the anime. Goku exclaiming that hitting Jiren when he's caught off-guard hurts him? Wow what a brilliant strategy.

3. The stakes have always been fight or everyone dies. Being erased doesn't impact the stakes as much when Zalama the Super Dragon can restore whole erased universes.

4. They're not as deep as you think they are. Vegeta himself was a villain once, and his history with Freeza made him one of the best anti-heroes in the series. Baby from GT was also not as one-dimensional if you think about his ambition to restore the Tuffle race as well as his justified hatred for Saiyans.

5. The one scene where Goku re-enacted his fight with Grandpa Gohan was pretty sweet, yeah. But this doesn't equate to a better story either.

6. Debatable. Don't think anything could top Goku and Piccolo driving cars. Or Krillin being shocked at hurting Goku with a rock while he was sleeping. Or Vegeta just blasting away the punch machine after everybody else held back.

7. I don't even know what this even means, tbh.

8. Also debatable. Unless nobody saw all the erased universes being wished back to existence.

9. How does that make the story better? Did F. Trunks having SSJ make the story worse? Gohan? You do know that all the relevant U6 Saiyans learned SSJ like it was child's play?

10. Mehhh, also debatable. Auto-dodge is broken hax and achieving the form has been really inconsistent. I also don't find it mysterious at all, don't know why you would say that.

11. Freeza was just fine in Z, his primary role was in the Namek saga and that's where he's most memorable. You are simply using a favoritism argument. I could just as easily say Golden Freeza is a caricature of a Super Saiyan, he got humiliated in the ToP multiple times, etc.

12. Again, favoritism argument. I actually preferred 17 when he showed emotion and frustration as opposed to his nihilistic attitude in Super. He was okay with just letting the Earth and his family get erased. But you could chalk it up to maturity as he got older.

13. What? Saiyan saga, everybody was thrashed and Vegeta got away. Cell saga, Goku died and decided to stay dead, leaving his family behind.

14. Alright. But the execution is what matters, and frankly DB had better execution of its Budokai tournaments. Z also didn't have an arc centralized on fighting in a single tournament.
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Re: Super has done a lot of things better than DBZ

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:43 pm

PFM18 wrote:The villians in Z were still evil solely for the sake of being evil.
Buu is the only one that fits this claim. Not all villains need to be corrupted to justify them being evil. Maybe Zamasu resonates with people because he has a very fanfic styled origin. The villains in Z were all coming off different backgrounds descending from them. You get their purposes and motives from what development exists around them, not just what speeches they give. A lot of it is very setting weighted rather than ideology in Z. Zamasu on the other hand has no background development. Zamasu is no different from a strawman. Majin Vegeta is the only Z villain that did both. His motivation was based on his belief about himself from the pride he had about his past life's infamy and says this. Freeza is no different being a villain because he comes from a colonial empire and heir to it that has him believe he should just control everything and do what he wants, he was born all powerful which gave him that position to act on this for years. He doesn't need a sympathetic reason. We know what he came from to round out his development in that context. Saying its just the "sake of being evil" is reducing them to just their alignment.
PFM18 wrote:They were not their motivation to act evil in the first place. Z never had something like that. Super had Zamasu who was a villian after becoming corrupted because of the failures of the lower beings. It makes sense and has real life similarities. Jiren isn't a villian at all, in fact, he is a hero and that was a very interesting dynamic to conflict with Goku that Z just never had.
DB is not a show about or a commentary about society of real life. There is no need for characters to require a reason to rationalize their actions. All they need is a layered goal, and enough personality to set the tone of their threat. With Zamasu simply going on about his ideals, they amount to nothing if they don't matter to or affect the outcome of the show. Zamasu's premise is only new to the show because the show didn't base its villains on anything but being evil. Most of the time Zamasu's pretentiousness was the humor of his character because of that. He's essentially just Majin Vegeta's ego and Freeza's entitlement combined when you break him down. His beliefs shouldn't be taken all that seriously, because (if its the fault of the writers) his beliefs started from very black & white reasons that had nothing to even do with the main cast. Like Buu. All it amounted to was the "Justice will prevail; We win because we're good" ending that Trunks gave in his bloated speech, that didn't make the victory earned or personal. It was just the obvious. Where as when Trunks beat Future 17 & 18, he did it to avenge his master and shown great maturity in his return. That was enough.
PFM18 wrote:Super gave other characters more spotlight. Vegeta, Krillin,Roshi,Tenshinhan and arguably Piccolo had more action/usefulness in Super.
Not really, those fights seemed like a bone-throw than legitimate utilization. Real utilization would be when characters can stand in for Goku & Vegeta and handle things with the same push as what they get. Them just beating one guy that Goku & Vegeta could easiy have one-shotted anyway is where it comes off as a bone through. The other characters don't get any chance to train anymore and were just given spontaneous scale boosts for the cinematic moments they had, but it was all artificial.
PFM18 wrote:I have no idea how you could argue the animation was better in Z. Super starting with the U6 arc was far far superior to Z in terms of animation. The tournament of Power completely blows Z out of the water in visuals especially the beauty that was episode 130
Now that sounds like your own hype. I can assume you're one of the people that thinks Takahashi 'saved' Super just because we got some extremely zippy, pulsing shots and blinding lights. A basis of opinion I'm starting to dislike a lot. Its a very childish way to judge animation just by saying the most darting scenes makes a fight 'epic'. Its exactly the attention grabbing that hype bias is based on.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.

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Re: Super has done a lot of things better than DBZ

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:52 pm

Lujin_16 wrote:Funny how some people always compare Super with GT because they think Z was a masterpiece or because they are blind of nostalgia
Maybe because is a parallel continuation, that people claimed would overwrite GT as the fandom considered it to be unwatchable, but then Super comes out to be just as flawed, and people are upset about this reflection on Super despite its hype.

1. Expanded Universes
Z expanded off of Earth and off of a single timeline, its no differently, except they were used to expand the plots of the newer arcs. Super introduces the universes but ended up being pretty much disposable. Nothing about the other universes couldn't have just been other galaxies in U7. They added concepts that were bigger than what they could grow the series into. GT did a bit better just by going to different planets. It was enough to contain things while still expanding the main universe. I highly doubt anyone cares about any other universe but U6. Suggesting potential in the others would just be hyperbole that doesn't defend their need to exist as of now. They could have just created a realm for Beerus and explore that first. With this whole thing about blowing up universes it conflicts with the power creep. Though thats my opinion.

2. More In-Depth Fighting Strategy
Meh, Not really. Brute force always does more damage, unlike in GT where characters had flaws to their armor as opposed to just doing dodgy things like ki grenades and stuff we know won't work. It makes the characters seem weaker than they are when they resort to simplistic things like bad smells. Most of them didn't even make sense. Like Beerus praising 17 for dropping rubble on Toppo, as if a) that would have worked on himself, and b) while wearing Hakai aura the rocks (that didn't disintegrate) would do more than Freeza's Final form Supernova attack? Or the ridiculous sniper episode that Goku could have easily taken care of with Instant transmission but didn't and decided to use rocks? Or Piccolo of all people losing to a bug because he wasn't listening to his movements? A Bug that apparently is stronger than a Super Namek because its small? The off-guard excuse makes them being strong at all pointless.

3. Bigger stakes
Stakes require loss. Nobody in Super died and they wouldn't even let the main characters fall out of the ring, get DQ'd or anything. There are no stakes with no pressure it the situation or U7. even bend the rules to it the situation or U7. Super did the exact opposite of holding stakes. It gave the characters too much back up. Stamina being inconsistent, ki remain is inconsistent, transformations happen when characters cry enough, you can stack full power on fullpower, you can master things by spamming them etc. There was no sacrifices made at all. Nothing that hindered the characters from fighting at their best. At least in GT when Goku was blinded by Eis Shenron it created a handicap (one that didn't make sense because ki sensing, but one that in the right idea of actual handicaps and tricked Syn to take his Kamehameha point blank). In Super nobody makes any, and Whis can basically do anything.

4. Black Goku & Zamasu not the typical Z villains
No, I guess not but they never accomplished anything. Spent too much time gloating. Then again the arc was horrible structured.

5. Callbacks to Dragonball
Krillin giving the same nostalgia memory with Roshi twice in a flashback is what I remember. Then the apparent retcon of the Mafuba that doesn't kill the user anymore and can be spammed? The TOP using the Final explosion again though was a pointless one. Z didn't rely on them, they feel cheap when they use references to better times in the series to have you think it makes the present of the same quality. Super initially ruined the final explosion.

6. a lot more funny moments than Z
Subjective, and that also depends on what you base that on. There are people who think Super is funny only after seeing the abridged series and going in to it with the same expectations, or that Super has been much more meme'd than Z which kept circulating the jokes. Though the God-tube thing was out of place and a bit too pandery. Z's humor was more original between the character chemistry in my opinion as opposed to the characters just acting stupid, but the overuse of the food gags early on in Super was grating.

7. they take their time to introduce a new villain(If Super comes back)
Err no they didn't. Goku black was introduced in the first episode of the arc, and everything he did was prepared for him. In Z the villains never showed up until early middle to mid way into the arc. Z had more world building prior to the villains it did that Super doesn't do. I don't know what "If Super comes back" means to that statement, but you can't praise Super for something it "could" do over something that is already done.

8. UNPREDICTABILITY
Maybe from the episodic writing,and the surrounding headcanon 'theory' videos around Super previews, you'd think that. Its hard to claim a show had real plot-twists because its tone and logic are inconsistent. Though Z was never anymore predictable unless you have proof of that. Toriyama wrote as he went along, there were no character archetypes to follow or marketing structures in the series unlike some anime genres today.

9. Goku and Vegeta are the only ones who knows the ssg form and does not the same mistake like Z with everyone knowing the super saiyan form
Maybe but Super has sown us god ki is worthless. Too much stamina and it can easily be rendered ineffective if you're strong enough. Thank Kefla, Kale & Jiren.

10. Ultra instinct is more interesting and mysterious than any other form in Z i mean Goku still does not know how to do it
Thats a very vague and solely opinion/hype-based statement. The mastered form doesn't make conceptual sense.

11. Super has changed Frieza in a badass again i mean we all know how Z destroyed his character after the Frieza arc easily by Future Trunks
He was caught off guard and cocky in that fight. He had no idea who Trunks was and Super altered Freeza's personality which matured him more so than he was in Z, but that could be validated as Freeza was much more ignorant to powers stronger than his own, while in Super he has seen Beerus & Jiren and stepped back. Though claiming hes more of a "bad ass" now is purely your opinion off your own standards.

12. C-17 is so much more enjoyable as character in Super than in Z
How was he more enjoyable than he was in Z? He was always portrayed as really strong and tactical, just now hes more mature. Why he was pushed so heavily though was uncalled for and didn't make sense. Though again you liking this is your opinion, not proof of anything.

13. The black Goku arc was the first arc with no happy ending
Actually no, none of the arcs before the Buu saga had a happy ending. Super is the series where regardless what happens everything must end on a feast. Even in that arc when they lose, they still celebrated. In Z, they were worried about everyone Nappa killed in the Saiaiyan arc, Goku dying on namek and Vegeta still a potential threat, or Goku dying from the Cell games. Z had more or happy. Even when they wished thione of them were happy. Even when they wished things back they still had personal losses. 18 didn't even want to hook up with Krillin right away. In Super Goku & Hit give up the tournament, in the Zamasu arc, they lose and they feast. In TOP, they instantly undo everything, get praised for a reason that had nothing to do with why they were there and feast again. Super had more happy endings I'd argue.

14. introduced the biggest tournament in Dragonball
So what? In Z the Tournaments were casual spectator events where weird things happen.

Lujin_16 wrote: I'm not hating i grow up with Dragonball Z and of course i miss some things like the Blood in Super etc

Not much of what you praise in Super contradicts that much of Z to say its better.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.

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Re: Super has done a lot of things better than DBZ

Post by PFM18 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:29 pm

Z expanded off of Earth and off of a single timeline, its no differently, except they were used to expand the plots of the newer arcs. Super introduces the universes but ended up being pretty much disposable. Nothing about the other universes couldn't have just been other galaxies in U7.
I'm sorry but this is just ridiculous. They could just be different galaxies? Seriously? So what we would have 12 Gods of Destruction in our Universe and one in a Galaxy? How would that make sense for Gods of Destruction to be within a Galaxy? Wouldn't they conflict with each other and often go into other Galaxies? the entire point of the Universes being twins is it serves as an "alternate universe" from the twin universe. Universe 6 has Frost who wasn't emperor of the universe but instead an undercover crook. The Universe 6 Saiyans were righteous warriors who helped people, didn't have tails, and didn't wipe out other planets. How would that make sense to be within another Galaxy? And if these were all within another Galaxy couldn't the Pride Troopers just come from the other Galaxy when Buu is terrorizing the Universe and smack him with a singer? How would the Kaioshins work? Wouldn't we have run into these insanely powerful warriors if they were just from another Galaxy?

Super did a fantastic job of world building and building new lore.
Meh, Not really. Brute force always does more damage, unlike in GT where characters had flaws to their armor as opposed to just doing dodgy things like ki grenades and stuff we know won't work. It makes the characters seem weaker than they are when they resort to simplistic things like bad smells. Most of them didn't even make sense. Like Beerus praising 17 for dropping rubble on Toppo, as if a) that would have worked on himself, and b) while wearing Hakai aura the rocks (that didn't disintegrate) would do more than Freeza's Final form Supernova attack? Or the ridiculous sniper episode that Goku could have easily taken care of with Instant transmission but didn't and decided to use rocks? Or Piccolo of all people losing to a bug because he wasn't listening to his movements? A Bug that apparently is stronger than a Super Namek because its small? The off-guard excuse makes them being strong at all pointless.
Ok so GT had this wonderful idea of having flaws in the character's armor? Did you not see Anilaza? How convenient you bring up this random instance of these ki grenades. Beerus praised 17 for dropping rubble on Toppo because A) 17 is not trying to win but instead trying to stall for time and that was a way to distract him. B) The stadium is made up of the incredibly hard Katchy Katchin material that could have conceivably done damage to Toppo. The "off guard" thing makes being strong pointless? How? Because now there is something that can actually be done against somebody stronger than you? All the character has to do is not le their guard down and they are good. But the fact that characters have to keep their guard up introduces an entirely new dynamic element to the fighting. in DBZ if A>B in power there is absolutely nothing B can do and there is nothing remotely dynamic about the fight. In Super, if B can find a way to catch A off guard, or distract them in order to find an opening they can do some damage or even win. So in that way, it isn't a foregone conclusion who wins and it is more in depth that way. There is a slew of more in-depth fighting mechanics that were in DBS when compared to DBZ: catching characters off guard, manipulating time(creating for much more interesting fights with Hit), Obuni's technique, Dyspo having speed that is higher than what is normal for his power rather than having a strictly linear perfect correlation between strength and speed, using Ki weapons, and that is just off the top of my head. Not to mention the fights in Super are dramatically better animated than anything seen in the series prior to this point. Although, this portion is entirely subjective, the epic "feel" and the level of "finality" to the environment was much higher/better in Super.
"

Stakes require loss. Nobody in Super died and they wouldn't even let the main characters fall out of the ring, get DQ'd or anything. There are no stakes with no pressure it the situation or U7. even bend the rules to it the situation or U7. Super did the exact opposite of holding stakes. It gave the characters too much back up. Stamina being inconsistent, ki remain is inconsistent, transformations happen when characters cry enough, you can stack full power on fullpower, you can master things by spamming them etc. There was no sacrifices made at all. Nothing that hindered the characters from fighting at their best. At least in GT when Goku was blinded by Eis Shenron it created a handicap (one that didn't make sense because ki sensing, but one that in the right idea of actual handicaps and tricked Syn to take his Kamehameha point blank). In Super nobody makes any, and Whis can basically do anything.


The thing about nobody dying in Super is just false. Future Bulma, Piccolo and the entire future timeline died in DBS. Although, yes, the main characters died more in DBZ not really sure how this is considered a negative. Would you have preferred more characters dying just to be revived from the Dragonballs? Death literally means nothing in Dragonball. It never has meant anything and it never will. Literally every character died in the series other than Kaioshin and Mr. Satan in the original run, but nobody actually stays dead. In Super, your entire universe is on the line. The entire future timeline was on the line. And guess what? they lost. Everybody died. Literall everyone in the entire future timeline from every Universe. Whis can basically do anything but he only intervenes in mortal affairs when Beerus gives him the green light and he has no right to intervene unless his "master" decides to. So there is a restriction on these things.
4. Black Goku & Zamasu not the typical Z villains
No, I guess not but they never accomplished anything. Spent too much time gloating. Then again the arc was horrible structured.
They never accomplished anything? They wanted to exterminate the mortals and they literally did. They succeeded in their mission. The entire timeline was erased because of them. They are creative villains with real motivations compared to anything ever before seen in DB before. They spent time gloating but that was part of the character. They were written to be narcissistic on purpose and I am not sure why you see this as a bad thing.
. UNPREDICTABILITY
Maybe from the episodic writing,and the surrounding headcanon 'theory' videos around Super previews, you'd think that. Its hard to claim a show had real plot-twists because its tone and logic are inconsistent. Though Z was never anymore predictable unless you have proof of that. Toriyama wrote as he went along, there were no character archetypes to follow or marketing structures in the series unlike some anime genres today.
how is the tone and logic inconsistent? And regardless of whether that is actually true, a plot-twist is still a plot-twist and Super had plenty of them. \
9. Goku and Vegeta are the only ones who knows the ssg form and does not the same mistake like Z with everyone knowing the super saiyan form
Maybe but Super has sown us god ki is worthless. Too much stamina and it can easily be rendered ineffective if you're strong enough. Thank Kefla, Kale & Jiren.



God Ki is not worthless. Goku and Vegeta used it to become millions of times stronger than they were before and they couldn't have reached that level without it as Goku stated. Yes, other characters reached that level without God Ki but I mean you need characters to be stronger in order to advance the story so naturally they end up being stronger. If you don't like the explanations as to how characters became stronger than characters with God Ki then I mean that is your own personal preference and does not make it objectively bad by any means.

10. Ultra instinct is more interesting and mysterious than any other form in Z i mean Goku still does not know how to do it
Thats a very vague and solely opinion/hype-based statement. The mastered form doesn't make conceptual sense.


Ultra Instinct is the first form in which after being used it cannot be readily used again. That is an objective fact and something that is unique to Super and their creative use of the form. The "mastererd" form does not even exist. There is Ultra Instinct(Silver hair) and Ultra Instinct Omen(Black Hair) Mastered is just the fan name people came up with. Hence why he cannot use it after the Tourny is over. And how does it not make sense? He achieved it through intense focus on the battle and the battle itself. He blocked out everything else and ultimately gained the ability to attack without thinking. Prior to this "trance"" that he entered where he zoned out everything, he did this because he knew that he had to in order to protect his loved ones and not let them down. What doesn't make conceptual sense about it?

13. The black Goku arc was the first arc with no happy ending
Actually no, none of the arcs before the Buu saga had a happy ending. Super is the series where regardless what happens everything must end on a feast. Even in that arc when they lose, they still celebrated. In Z, they were worried about everyone Nappa killed in the Saiaiyan arc, Goku dying on namek and Vegeta still a potential threat, or Goku dying from the Cell games. Z had more or happy. Even when they wished thione of them were happy. Even when they wished things back they still had personal losses. 18 didn't even want to hook up with Krillin right away. In Super Goku & Hit give up the tournament, in the Zamasu arc, they lose and they feast. In TOP, they instantly undo everything, get praised for a reason that had nothing to do with why they were there and feast again. Super had more happy endings I'd argue.


Yes, the Tournament of Power was undone but that doesn't take away from the stakes of the tournament and the people being erased. Nappa's kills were all undone. So what? What is wrong with this stuff being undone? Krillin's death,Vegeta's death, the entire Namekian race's extinction and their planet being destroyed was undone. It makes absolutely no sense to call it a negative that the ToP was undone when every death in DBZ was undone when it was over.

SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:
Lujin_16 wrote:
Not really, those fights seemed like a bone-throw than legitimate utilization. Real utilization would be when characters can stand in for Goku & Vegeta and handle things with the same push as what they get. Them just beating one guy that Goku & Vegeta could easiy have one-shotted anyway is where it comes off as a bone through. The other characters don't get any chance to train anymore and were just given spontaneous scale boosts for the cinematic moments they had, but it was all artificial.


They received fights that gave them spotlight. There isn't really much else to it. Not sure how you can define "real" utilization in an objective way. Yes, Goku and Vegeta could have easily one shotted these characters anyway but that doesn't diminish it at all. How could you possibly create a situation where Krillin beats somebody that either of Goku or Vegeta could not have beaten? The gap in power has always been huge and there always will be. They don't train as much anymore because they are all given their own unique roles within the series and I don't see how that could be seen as a bad thing.

Dragon Ball is a show about fighting and DBS just has better fights. More dynamic, more creative, better animation, and just a more epic feel to them. Also, DBS definitely has better slice of life episodes.

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Re: Super has done a lot of things better than DBZ

Post by Exline » Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:36 pm

PFM18, although i agree with only a few of your statements, but some of your argument doesn't make sense to me.

You state:
PFM18 wrote:Ultra Instinct is the first form in which after being used it cannot be readily used again. That is an objective fact and something that is unique to Super and their creative use of the form. The "mastererd" form does not even exist. There is Ultra Instinct(Silver hair) and Ultra Instinct Omen(Black Hair) Mastered is just the fan name people came up with. Hence why he cannot use it after the Tourny is over. And how does it not make sense? He achieved it through intense focus on the battle and the battle itself. He blocked out everything else and ultimately gained the ability to attack without thinking. Prior to this "trance"" that he entered where he zoned out everything, he did this because he knew that he had to in order to protect his loved ones and not let them down. What doesn't make conceptual sense about it?
But..

Goku in 128, 129, and 130 uses Ultra Instinct because all he can think about is fighting for his friends, which really makes Ultra Instinct in those episodes make no sense when you're supposed to clear your thoughts and focus purely on the battle. Those thoughts would cloud your mind and leave you unable to dodge as well as UI Goku had been doing in episodes 110 and 116.

SingleFring&Sparks is correct when he says Mastered Ultra Instinct makes no conceptual sense because in order to use the form, you need to be engaged and focused on the battle before you, by blocking everything out.

I'd comment on your other statements, but I don't want to spend anymore time on them. I agree with some, but not all.

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Re: Super has done a lot of things better than DBZ

Post by PFM18 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:44 pm

Exline wrote: SingleFring&Sparks is correct when he says Mastered Ultra Instinct makes no conceptual sense because in order to use the form, you need to be engaged and focused on the battle before you, by blocking everything out.
You say that his opinion is "correct" as though this is actually an objective fact. At the end of the day it is just his opinion that it doesn't make sense, there is no "correct" or "incorrect" in this context.

That said, Ultra Instinct ultimately boils down to focusing on a specific thing and emptying your mind. Goku did that very well and he achieved the form. Simple as that. It isn't as though he is incapable of thought before or after. Therefore, thinking of his friends at some point afterwards does not contradict this concept. The story emphasizes Goku's bond with his friends to show that contrast with Jiren and it is a big part of the plot of the tournament. I think it was handled well and it made conceptual sense. But I am certainly not going to call your opinion "correct" or "incorrect"

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