What, IYO, is Super's greatest achievement and detriment in its whole run.

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: What, IYO, is Super's greatest achievement and detriment in its whole run.

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:16 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:
Asura wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:Greatest Detriment: Exposing that a lot fans don't know a lot about Dragon Ball and can't handle Dragon Ball content on a once-a-week basis
This is interesting, particularly that last part about people not being able to handle Dragon Ball on a once-a-week basis, I think that's absolutely true, especially for a massive arc like the ToP. I would be willing to bet that a decent chunk of the same people that binge-watched through the Namek arc with zero complaints were one of those who were very vocal about the pacing of this arc, and being upset that not every week was a fantastic spectacle. Z had plenty of episodes where literally nothing happened, but people who binge-watched the show didn't complain because they could watch the next episode right away. Hell, of the people I know and the people I've heard of who binge-watched the ToP (at least to catch up to where we currently were at the time) they really enjoyed it and didn't seem to have any complaints about the pacing.

It's a massive arc, no doubt, and there are some issues in some areas where things go faster or slower than they should, but really it didn't feel any different than an arc of Z. It just felt like it lasted forever because you could only watch an episode a week.
I can confirm that watching the Freeza Arc as it aired on Toonami was a fucking chore. I can't remember if they were doing daily episodes at that point or not, but regardless, my 7-9 year old self was bored out of his mind. I dropped the show.
Namek was slog to get through once the Ginyu Force arrived. And the Majin Boo arc, as entertaining as it was, felt like it went on forever.

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Re: What, IYO, is Super's greatest achievement and detriment in its whole run.

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:43 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
Kamiccolo9 wrote:
Asura wrote: This is interesting, particularly that last part about people not being able to handle Dragon Ball on a once-a-week basis, I think that's absolutely true, especially for a massive arc like the ToP. I would be willing to bet that a decent chunk of the same people that binge-watched through the Namek arc with zero complaints were one of those who were very vocal about the pacing of this arc, and being upset that not every week was a fantastic spectacle. Z had plenty of episodes where literally nothing happened, but people who binge-watched the show didn't complain because they could watch the next episode right away. Hell, of the people I know and the people I've heard of who binge-watched the ToP (at least to catch up to where we currently were at the time) they really enjoyed it and didn't seem to have any complaints about the pacing.

It's a massive arc, no doubt, and there are some issues in some areas where things go faster or slower than they should, but really it didn't feel any different than an arc of Z. It just felt like it lasted forever because you could only watch an episode a week.
I can confirm that watching the Freeza Arc as it aired on Toonami was a fucking chore. I can't remember if they were doing daily episodes at that point or not, but regardless, my 7-9 year old self was bored out of his mind. I dropped the show.
Namek was slog to get through once the Ginyu Force arrived. And the Majin Boo arc, as entertaining as it was, felt like it went on forever.
When I was watching it, halfway through the Ginyu stuff was the end of the show. They spent for-fucking-ever showing reruns of Raditz to Jeice and Burter. Dear God, it was terrible.
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Re: What, IYO, is Super's greatest achievement and detriment in its whole run.

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:05 pm

Best - Giving us a new manga and at least someone that knows the series enough, and what fans expect for an alternative to the anime; & Freeza's Characterization (better than ROF's)
Worst - Goku's characterization, Inconsistent to just bad writing, no story, the friendship power-ups, the retellings and 2 Tournament arcs, and the other 2 arcs with terrible endings.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.

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Re: What, IYO, is Super's greatest achievement and detriment in its whole run.

Post by Exline » Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:13 pm

Best - The Tournament of Power Arc is what got me into watching Super in the first place.
DB Youtubers like AnimeAjay and MasakoX really kept me invested in this show.

Worst - Missed opportunites everywhere and tons of unneeded fanservice and callbacks every single episode. DB Youtubers like Rhymestyle and Seththeprogrammer.

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Re: What, IYO, is Super's greatest achievement and detriment in its whole run.

Post by Cipher » Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:17 am

Greatest achievements: The destruction of Future Trunks' timeline (maybe its sole iconic scene prior to the finale), bringing Freeza back permanently and making him a reluctant ally. I couldn't have predicted either at the beginning of the series, and they're pure Toriyama. Just thinking about them makes me smile. Really, most of its basic ideas are enjoyable.

Biggest detriment: Its scripting as a whole. Conceptually, the fact that it's hamstrung as a midquel. Interesting things can still happen, but not ones that offer major changes for the main characters (Goku and Vegeta's major arcs continue to be defined by the Boo arc), which is kind of problematic for a serial.

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Re: What, IYO, is Super's greatest achievement and detriment in its whole run.

Post by Lionel » Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:31 am

What I can think of at the moment...

Greatest achievement: Extensive elaboration of the mythology and world that Dragon Ball is rooted in. It's opened the gateway towards so many new characters and universes. I only wish more could be devoted to giving it the proper development that it all deserves.

Worst detriment: Degenerating the combat physics and overall power cohesiveness when it was already on badly volatile ground in the last arc of DBZ's original run. The show was all over the map with no sense of true purposeful direction on how it wanted to handle the scaling. One minute a character is at their limit and then in the next they're back on their feet with out of nowhere vigour and power that holds no explainable cause to itself except that it materialised because the people over at Toei needed them up and running again to reach the next intended point in the narrative.

Also, another major grievance was the lack of extended possibility to previously beloved cast members. They're clearly pushing for this Goku-Vegeta duo rival journey throughout the show while keeping everyone else at arm's length yet they show no qualms in calling them to show up in a fight despite having already been discarded some time back. It's like they want us to accept the Goku & Vegeta duet dynamic of the show while still taking advantage of classical nostalgia by flaunting old faces so they'll make us go, "Hey! They're letting so-and-so have a turn at the opponents this time, maybe we can expect something good out of them." Right before they pull the carpet out from underneath their feet, that is.

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Re: What, IYO, is Super's greatest achievement and detriment in its whole run.

Post by FortuneSSJ » Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:47 pm

Greatest Achievement

In-Universe: Pull off a Tournament with so many characters and non stop action for 30+ episodes, while keeping good quality overall and still delivering some of the best animated fight scenes of the entire franchise. No other anime did that.

Out-Universe: Introduce the original version to a lot of people. The japanese version of Dragon Ball has a lot of more fans now thanks to Super, because the dub is behind and they were "forced" to watch the show in japanese to keep up with what was going on.

Greatest Detriment

In-Universe: Copy Vegeta arc.

Out-Universe: Lack of pre-production and planning really hurt this show.
Lord Beerus wrote: Greatest Detriment: Exposing that a lot fans don't know a lot about Dragon Ball and can't handle Dragon Ball content on a once-a-week basis
This is a good one.
A world without Dragon Ball is just meh.

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Re: What, IYO, is Super's greatest achievement and detriment in its whole run.

Post by Simere » Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:52 pm

Achievement: Ultra Instinct. Ever since Whis first spoke of the concept I wanted them to hurry up and get to it, and it was done very well. I like how the fandom reacted to it. I liked how it played to Goku's character. I particularly liked the music cues it had; I wish they had used the Limit-Break track from the OST for when he mastered it, though. When I first heard it I pictured angels standing up to bear witness. The GoDs would have been just as fitting.

Detriment: That it went away. This is an albatross for the whole series going forward. Any height they'll reach from here on out, particularly Goku, will be as nothing the shadow of UI. Nothing they achieve is going to feel exciting until it comes back and they explore what lies beyond. And I'm not currently feeling like they intend to bring it back, so it feels particularly bad. I keep thinking about Herms's breakdown of 130's title and fearing that it was actually literal.

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Re: What, IYO, is Super's greatest achievement and detriment in its whole run.

Post by PFM18 » Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:19 pm

Simere wrote:Achievement: Ultra Instinct. Ever since Whis first spoke of the concept I wanted them to hurry up and get to it, and it was done very well. I like how the fandom reacted to it. I liked how it played to Goku's character. I particularly liked the music cues it had; I wish they had used the Limit-Break track from the OST for when he mastered it, though. When I first heard it I pictured angels standing up to bear witness. The GoDs would have been just as fitting.

Detriment: That it went away. This is an albatross for the whole series going forward. Any height they'll reach from here on out, particularly Goku, will be as nothing the shadow of UI. Nothing they achieve is going to feel exciting until it comes back and they explore what lies beyond. And I'm not currently feeling like they intend to bring it back, so it feels particularly bad. I keep thinking about Herms's breakdown of 130's title and fearing that it was actually literal.
So the entire series to you boils down to the one concept of UI?

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Re: What, IYO, is Super's greatest achievement and detriment in its whole run.

Post by Simere » Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:46 pm

PFM18 wrote:So the entire series to you boils down to the one concept of UI?
It's not about UI itself, it's about the series being built on reaching new and greater heights, and when the highest one is behind us everything else is going to be less than until that peak is reached again—or a higher one is found. UI happens to be that highest height, but it could be anything else and the problem would still exist. Why did I have to explain this to you? How long did you spend thinking about what I said before you decided to flippantly respond to me?

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Re: What, IYO, is Super's greatest achievement and detriment in its whole run.

Post by AloversGaming » Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:15 pm

Upside: In my opinion Super often felt closer to DB than a lot of later Z did. I'll always love and respect Super for that.

Once Trunks and the Androids appeared in Z there was a weird disconnect that made the arcs feel like they didn't belong. In Super the interactions with certain characters like Roshi, Goku and Krillin's episodes in that magic forest, Goku reenacting his fight against Grandpa Gohan at Baba's. Those all felt so right.

There was a strong organic feeling to Super as a continuation to where Buu left off, I felt like I was coming back for more Z. Unlike GT where the first episode felt so far away from DB that it may as well been a whole different franchise.

I hope if Super returns we get to see more magical and wonderful locations on Earth.

--

Downside: The writing could have been much better for the main arcs. Black's arc falls apart towards the end and ToP would have been much better if it was around 10 episodes shorter.

Of course animation and art style are common complaints I agree with, too.

The show felt very fanficy at times. Hell, the Funimation dub and DBFZ come off as proadies pretty often these days. Super has annoying stuff like recreating Yamcha's death, Funi sounds like it wants to replace TeamFourStar and DBFZ's character interactions feel like a member of this board was on the writing staff.

_

If Super returns with a style similar to the 2018 movie as well as having better writing for their arcs, I predict it could be of great quality. It'll never be as good as it would if Akira Toriyama was still the one creating the manga, but a much bigger improvement could come with Super's return.

Also, air at a later time and give us back blood ;)

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Re: What, IYO, is Super's greatest achievement and detriment in its whole run.

Post by PFM18 » Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:20 pm

Simere wrote:
PFM18 wrote:So the entire series to you boils down to the one concept of UI?
It's not about UI itself, it's about the series being built on reaching new and greater heights, and when the highest one is behind us everything else is going to be less than until that peak is reached again—or a higher one is found. UI happens to be that highest height, but it could be anything else and the problem would still exist. Why did I have to explain this to you? How long did you spend thinking about what I said before you decided to flippantly respond to me?
You don't "have to" to explain this to me as though I didn't understood what you said and needed to pay more attention to your post. What you are saying is very clear it is just strange that the best and worst things of the series boiled down to one concept within the scope of the entire series. You can have your opinion I mean everyone has one, I just think it may be a bit close minded to define the entire series by the way they handled Ultra Instinct.

As for my opinion on the topic:

Greatest achievement: What Super did for Vegeta

DBZ left Vegeta in such a bad spot when it ended. Buu saga Vegeta is just awful. The majin vegeta scene is so strange "I know I just murdered hundreds of people and said that having a family made me weak and that I didn't need you anymore, but I am gonna blow myself up and we will be ok right? Alright see ya in a week!" Since the whole concept of death in the series doesn't mean anything, the scene didn't hold as much weight. Literally every character except Baba, Shin, and Satan died. He had already died. It means nothing. He just blows himself up it does nothing and it is supposed to make up for the fact that he had just chastised himself for having a family and murdered hundreds of people. And then at the end of the Buu saga, he just becomes a total b**** and just gives up on surpassing Goku and accepts the fact that he will always be weak and he does it for no particular reason other than Goku got SSJ3 and he didn't. Like since when was Vegeta the type to give up like that? And he wasn't even a family man he hardly did anything family man esque. On top of that, he was just generally a pathetic weakling, he was weaker than Goku, weaker than Gohan, and worst of all he was weaker than HIS OWN KID when his kid fused with Goten. And it wasn't even close the 3 of them made him look so weak.

Super fixed this. Vegeta was handled beautifully in Super in every conceivable way. He went to the park at the beginning of the series, he held Bra, he saved Trunks on Planet Patafu or whatever, (and told him they would have a "long talk") he showed that he cared for Bulma several times. The moments he had with Future Trunks. There is just so many amazing Vegeta moments in Super and I just loved what they did with him. He was actually powerful instead of the pathetic weakling that he was in the Buu saga. He actually had his first remotely Major win against Toppo, he beat the crap out of Goku Black who was the strongest antagonist at the time, he won 3 matches in the U6 tournament, the list goes on and on. It made no sense why Gohan was always so strong alongside Goku because he didn't even like fighting. He was a scholar not a fighter and yet he was stronger than everybody who was a fighter. Super fixed that. Super made Vegeta a 1000x better version of Buu saga Vegeta.

Greatest Detriment: The ending of the Future Trunks Arc.

Not much to say, just a very disappointing ending. Really my biggest complaint for the series even though it wasn't THAT bad.

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Re: What, IYO, is Super's greatest achievement and detriment in its whole run.

Post by Simere » Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:43 pm

PFM18 wrote:You don't "have to" to explain this to me as though I didn't understood what you said and needed to pay more attention to your post. What you are saying is very clear it is just strange that the best and worst things of the series boiled down to one concept within the scope of the entire series. You can have your opinion I mean everyone has one, I just think it may be a bit close minded to define the entire series by the way they handled Ultra Instinct.
First of all, I lost my cool a bit. Sorry for snapping at you.

But it's two concepts: the concept of UI is what I named as its greatest achievement, and although I'm tangentially talking about UI in my detriment, what it boils down to is the concept of progress; more specifically, how the concept of progress, or lack thereof, will affect future storylines.

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Re: What, IYO, is Super's greatest achievement and detriment in its whole run.

Post by PFM18 » Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:45 pm

Simere wrote:
PFM18 wrote:You don't "have to" to explain this to me as though I didn't understood what you said and needed to pay more attention to your post. What you are saying is very clear it is just strange that the best and worst things of the series boiled down to one concept within the scope of the entire series. You can have your opinion I mean everyone has one, I just think it may be a bit close minded to define the entire series by the way they handled Ultra Instinct.
First of all, I lost my cool a bit. Sorry for snapping at you.

But it's two concepts: the concept of UI is what I named as its greatest achievement, and although I'm tangentially talking about UI in my detriment, what it boils down to is the concept of progress; more specifically, how the concept of progress, or lack thereof, will affect future storylines.
Well I mean Goku is just gonna unlock it again the next time he fights. In peace times when he isnt pushed to the edge he cannot use it. There is no way he wont use it in the movie.

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