Retrospective - Tournament of Power

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Retrospective - Tournament of Power

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:09 pm

What did you think of the participation of each member of universe 7 in the tournament? If you want, you can talk about other characters too.

Well, that's how I see it

Kuririn: In the '' arc '' of recruiting, Kuririn received a lot of attention for being experienced and having techniques to use in the tournament, he even had an entire EP dedicated to him. I was disappointed because he fell very quickly and only had a prominent EP, not showing all his abilities against more powerful enemies.

Tenshinhan: Complete disappointment. In the recruitment, he was defeated in the episode that was dedicated to himself, in the double fighting he was defeated by Gohan, and in the tournament did almost nothing. He defeated some opponents, but was eliminated without doing much.

Piccolo: I think Piccolo's performance was more disappointing than Kuririn. For the first time after a long time, he considerably increased his power and in the arc of recruiting had a good highlight molding Gohan again as a warrior and overcoming the SSJ2. But in the tournament, he only served as a shield for his student, had no solo fight and was defeated in a terrible way, only to make 17 look better.

Muten Roshi: Surely that was a decent return for the old man. We saw him use his best techniques, defeat opponents that could cause problems for his teammates and save Vegeta. I liked your dialogues and interactions. I just found your power increase a bit forced.

Android 18: At the beginning of the tournament, I found it annoying that she despised Kuririn for falling, but that she herself was almost eliminated by lowering her guard, needing to be saved by her husband. But then I think she fulfilled her role, had that ideological struggle with Ribrianne and sacrificed herself for the 17th.

Android 17: Obviously one of the biggest highlights of the tournament. Toriyama certainly wanted to put a lot of emphasis on him, although I think that TOEI in some moments forced the character and tried to put it in moments that were not appropriate. But he was instrumental in winning the U7 in a number of ways, despite not having a big solo fight against an enemy of his level (which does not matter much here).

Freeza: Freeza was one of the most hyped characters in the tournament. His return really was triumphant and he showed evolution. However, for most of the tournament, we saw him only face some weaker guys, but being humiliated and defeated when he inflicted stronger enemies, mainly because of his arrogance. And so he got most of the final battle without appearing, even if in the end he helped beat Jiren. So I would say that was satisfactory, but nothing absurd.

Vegeta: In recruiting, he did not do much to be taking care of Bulma, and in the first half of the tournament, he was also a bit forgetful (although he had good episodes facing U9 and Frost / Magetta with Muten Roshi), but I think so that in the final battle, he received several prominent episodes. I really liked the promise he made with Kyabe on EP 112, it was a great development of the character, but I do not like the way TOEI treats Vegeta in a few moments, making it seem like he has a double personality, at one point being arrogant as in the saga Cell and in others acting in a normal way.
Anyway, he got a new transformation, faced Jiren and defeated a GoD, I think that was satisfactory despite his ridiculous elimination.

Goku: I think about him, he has not much to say, he's the protagonist. There were several big battles with great moments, a lot of power ups and interactions, although I found that TOEI also forced to put Goku in almost every fight, as if that were a must, and that took some characters' brilliance

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Re: Retrospective - Tournament of Power

Post by JazzMazz » Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:36 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote:What did you think of the participation of each member of universe 7 in the tournament? If you want, you can talk about other characters too.

Well, that's how I see it

Kuririn: In the '' arc '' of recruiting, Kuririn received a lot of attention for being experienced and having techniques to use in the tournament, he even had an entire EP dedicated to him. I was disappointed because he fell very quickly and only had a prominent EP, not showing all his abilities against more powerful enemies.

Tenshinhan: Complete disappointment. In the recruitment, he was defeated in the episode that was dedicated to himself, in the double fighting he was defeated by Gohan, and in the tournament did almost nothing. He defeated some opponents, but was eliminated without doing much.

Piccolo: I think Piccolo's performance was more disappointing than Kuririn. For the first time after a long time, he considerably increased his power and in the arc of recruiting had a good highlight molding Gohan again as a warrior and overcoming the SSJ2. But in the tournament, he only served as a shield for his student, had no solo fight and was defeated in a terrible way, only to make 17 look better.

Muten Roshi: Surely that was a decent return for the old man. We saw him use his best techniques, defeat opponents that could cause problems for his teammates and save Vegeta. I liked your dialogues and interactions. I just found your power increase a bit forced.

Android 18: At the beginning of the tournament, I found it annoying that she despised Kuririn for falling, but that she herself was almost eliminated by lowering her guard, needing to be saved by her husband. But then I think she fulfilled her role, had that ideological struggle with Ribrianne and sacrificed herself for the 17th.

Android 17: Obviously one of the biggest highlights of the tournament. Toriyama certainly wanted to put a lot of emphasis on him, although I think that TOEI in some moments forced the character and tried to put it in moments that were not appropriate. But he was instrumental in winning the U7 in a number of ways, despite not having a big solo fight against an enemy of his level (which does not matter much here).

Freeza: Freeza was one of the most hyped characters in the tournament. His return really was triumphant and he showed evolution. However, for most of the tournament, we saw him only face some weaker guys, but being humiliated and defeated when he inflicted stronger enemies, mainly because of his arrogance. And so he got most of the final battle without appearing, even if in the end he helped beat Jiren. So I would say that was satisfactory, but nothing absurd.

Vegeta: In recruiting, he did not do much to be taking care of Bulma, and in the first half of the tournament, he was also a bit forgetful (although he had good episodes facing U9 and Frost / Magetta with Muten Roshi), but I think so that in the final battle, he received several prominent episodes. I really liked the promise he made with Kyabe on EP 112, it was a great development of the character, but I do not like the way TOEI treats Vegeta in a few moments, making it seem like he has a double personality, at one point being arrogant as in the saga Cell and in others acting in a normal way.
Anyway, he got a new transformation, faced Jiren and defeated a GoD, I think that was satisfactory despite his ridiculous elimination.

Goku: I think about him, he has not much to say, he's the protagonist. There were several big battles with great moments, a lot of power ups and interactions, although I found that TOEI also forced to put Goku in almost every fight, as if that were a must, and that took some characters' brilliance
Kuririn: I felt for all the build up he got in the anime, his performance and actual elimination were extremely underwhelming. I think its a little sad that the best episodes he had a role in, were ones where he was supporting his team from the sidelines.
Tenshinhan:Honestly, he was really badly shafted, to the point I have trouble even justifying him being there. His recruitment episode was abysmal, and his "big episode" was just completely underwhelming due to awful direction, though I will say, I think his participation could have been salvaged if the second half of 106 had better storyboarding on a whole, with only slightly better direction.
Piccolo:Outside of his elimination episode(which was awful in every way), I think Piccolo had a pretty decent run with Gohan in the TOP. He didn't really do much, but he at the very least had one of the best episodes of the tournament devoted to him in episode 118, and his single 1v1 fight, though shortlived, had some decent animation to it. Overall, a decent build-up, a decent overall participation(namely due to the greatness of 118), but an extremely lacklustre final outing in 119.
Muten Roshi:Ah Roshi, I would say his recruitment was easily one of the best and worst of any characters. Worst in the sense his perverted nature was flanderized in a way that actually hurt his overall characterization. Best in the sense his "final fight" preparation was genuinely pretty ominous and touching. As for his participation in the tournament, I would say it was heavily mixed. He had easily one of the worst episodes in the tournament devoted to him in 105, but also one of the best 107. I would say, that if you skipped over his stuff in 105, and just counted his participation and final outing in 107, then you would have easily one of the strongest and worthwhile outings out of any character. However, that's not the case, so he just ends up being a little bit of mixed bag.
Android 18:She was better than expected. Really, her teamwork with Android 17, as well as her big fight with Ribrianne in 117, was what made her inclusion at all worthwhile. That's not to say I'm particularly found of her, but at the very least she was decent enough to warrant having around(unlike Kuririn or Ten).
Android 17:Easily one of the better inclusions in the TOP. He generally just hit every point. He had a great recruitment, a fantastic participation even in the more dull sections of the TOP, and even had a good final participation, deservedly winning the TOP. Good handling all round I'd say.
Freeza:Though I disliked him coming back yet again, he had a great recruitment saga, and a great pay-off to his re-introduction. Though I am a little peeved with how poorly utilized he was during the majority of the TOP in the anime, him teaming up with Goku to take down Jiren easily made up for any misgivings he had during the tournament.
Vegeta:Vegeta is weird. His recruitment episode was kind of nothing, and him popping up as a cutaway character in every episode did kind of weaken him as a character, but on the flip side, he got some of the best episodes of the TOP devoted to him in 107, 112 and 122. However, he also had a few weaker episodes in 126 and 128, meaning his participation in the tournament ended on a rather sour note. Overall, I would say he was easily the most mixed character of the universe 7 guys in terms of worthwhile participation.
Goku:He was fine. Though I do felt we saw him a little too much, he(being the main protagonist) got easily the coolest moments of the TOP devoted to him, be it in fighting or characterization handling. Overall, a lot of love was put into us liking Goku this arc, and while I do think he appeared a little too much at points, I think he was great this arc.

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Re: Retrospective - Tournament of Power

Post by Michsi » Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:39 am

Kuririn - I wasn't surprised he was the first one out, but what bothered me was that it happened so soon. I didn't find his episode to be particularly great either, though his moment with 18 was cute (which was then ruined in the next)

Tenshinhan- definitely got the worst treatment out of the cast. Kuririn at least had an episode dedicated to him, Ten wasn't given even that. He at least eliminated someone, but since that opponent was as forgettable as he could be, it doesn't make things much better.

Muten Roshi - one of the bigger surprises of the arc. Not only was he not the first one out, he took down way more opponents than expected. Some might have a problem with the power scaling, and that technically he had no business being in that ring since he hasn't fought since King Piccolo arc, but modern DB seems to want him around more. One of the things I liked in DBS is that you could have characters that have never even interacted before have scenes together, and seeing Vegeta and Muten Roshi fight together-ish was nice.

Piccolo - did better than expected, less than I hoped. That ep. 119, man.... I know 106 is mostly remembered as either Ten's elimination episode, or the meat shield episode, but I honestly didn't think it was that bad, for Piccolo at least. They went to great lengths to highlight his strategic and analytical side, which I found admirable. Then there was ep.118, what I consider to be one of the best episodes of the arc and Super as a whole. It wasn't dedicated to him entirely, (mostly because his fight with the U6 namekians was drawn out over several episodes ) but I do think he was the one character that stood out the most simply because he was the one that had an internal struggle to overcome. 119 put an end to what had been a great streak of episodes - even now I pray that the manga reveals that him going out like that was a mistake, but you never know....

18- I was happy she was included, unhappy with how she was written. It felt like the writers had no proper grasp on her character. She'd go from cool and kind, to unfriendly and catty from episode to episode. What I liked was that they gave her plenty of moments with her brother - I always found it odd that she barely reacted to 17 getting absorbed by Cell back in Z , which made me think the weren't emotionally close.

17- definitely the dark horse of the arc. Enjoyable for the most part, but I'm one of those people that think they could've toned down their "look, look, isn't he cool" bit. It's obvious they had to put in extra effort since he was the character we knew least and most fans had no attachment to him, but as someone here already mentioned, it felt like they had to dumb down other characters to make him look cool. I was bothered by that. His "sacrifice" wasn't done very well either, and the reveal that he survived in the end was lackluster.

Vegeta - like 18, his characterization was all over the place. It also felt like they tried the damnest to overcompensate for the fact that he'd not be in the final 3, but I don't know. That new transformation looks not good :( Also, no meaningful interaction with Freeza. I still can't believe this.

Freeza- though the final fight was spectacular, Freeza's role as a whole ended up being way smaller than I expected. He strutted his stuff for several episode, seemingly plotting something, and then nothing. Ep 95 was a treat, but it gave us the wrong impression about what we thought he'd do. Also, I don't know what to think about him being out there again....\

Goku - aggravating sometimes, enjoyable other times. Don't know what else to say that wouldn't double down as a comment on his characterization during the entirety of Super's run.

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Re: Retrospective - Tournament of Power

Post by Kataphrut » Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:35 am

I might throw in some basic rankings for the characters. Y'all forgot someone btw.

Krillin: Someone had to go out first, fair enough. I loved his focus episodes before the tournament enough that his early elimination doesn't bother me. It was a decent focus episode. If anything, I kind of wish more u7 guys had followed suit. 6/10

Tien: I'll give him one thing; his elimination was better than Krillin's, if only because he took the baddy out with him. Apart from that, poor, poor performance. 2/10

Roshi: There was a time I was prepared to name him the MVP of the tournament. In the end, he didn't quite beat out the Androids but he had a fine showing nonetheless. He was the crowning example of the arc trying to show how technique and experience could trump power. Obviously he had a ceiling being pretty much useless against Frost, but he did well. Definitely could have done without all the creepy sex shit in the recruitment arc and that one Universe 4 girl. Since his best moments had nothing to do with that, you could have easily cut those parts and had a better character. 8/10

Piccolo: He was just there, wasn't he? I think they were too attached to his pairing with Gohan, since he never really stepped outside of his shadow during the tournament. We got that one good moment in 118 when he sees Kami and Nail, at all other times he was just a satellite character, which is disappointing. Plus, his elimination was shit. In spite of all that, he wasn't terrible, just underwhelming. 5/10

Android 18: A damn good showing even if her brother overshadowed her. They did a really good showcasing her take-no-shit attitude with a lot of cool eliminations and her fight with Ribrianne was the best kind of over-the-top nonsense. That being said, 18 was never the best-written character even in the old days, and she got served a couple of shockingly bad character moments. First was ragging on Krillin after his elimination, second was being legitimately upset that 17 chose the fate of several universes over a boat. 7/10

Gohan: He did good. They definitely set the bar too high with expectations, but this was a nice return to form for Gohan. He's always had this weird meta-narrative about never being able to live up to the big hype moment of the Cell games and flip-flopping between a nebbish scholar and a powerful warrior. This arc hit a nice middle ground, giving him character development, clearing up the weird foibles with the writing and showing that you can have the scholar and the warrior in equal measure. No real hype moments compared to the other characters of his stature, but a solid performance and decent character moments shows sometimes you don't need them. 7/10

Which contrasts nicely with...

Vegeta: Oh god, Vegeta why? I'm just going to say it, this arc made me hate him. I used to think he was the best character in Super (a common view, from what I've seen) but his role in the Tournament of Power made me realise he's just been stuck in two roles: developed family man who's gruff but cares about people, competitive with Goku but has a fun "married couple" dynamic with him vs hackneyed Cell saga interpretation that doesn't seem to care about anything but surpassing Kakarot. He spent most of the ToP stuck in the latter characterisation, but then during the last third they kept trying to throw all these big emotional moments that were shallow and overdone. Add in the worst Dragon Ball transformation of all time, a wanky homage to his Buu saga sacrifice, and a dragged out elimination. Any cool or interesting things he might've done in the arc are just buried beneath frustration.

Baby Bra was cute though. 3/10

Freeza: So hey, this might be the best writing Freeza has ever had. I'm just gonna throw that out there. His role in the arc was basically an extended apology for Resurrection F and I kind of love it. He showed character development before and throughout the arc while retaining those villainous traits we love him for. Everytime he appeared was a highlight, up to and including the final showdown between him, Goku and Jiren. Only downside was that weird period during the Toppo fight where he kept popping up to get beat down and disappear again. That was dumb. 9/10

Goku: All the best moments, the best new form, Protagonist Privilege was in full force here. He was written pretty well in this arc, especially in comparison to Future Trunks arc. He had good chemistry with most of the cast, particularly Freeza and Caulifla, I sort of liked what they were trying to do with him and Jiren toward the end. Probably could've done with a *little* less screentime, but I can't complain. 8/10

17: There was a point I was tired of how much love he was getting, and I still *kinda* wish Gohan had taken his role at the end, if only to make that buildup worth it. Still, hate the game, not the player. And this man played well. 10/10

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Re: Retrospective - Tournament of Power

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:37 am

I do not know how I forgot about Gohan, but I'll talk about it now.

Gohan: I think his participation was satisfactory too. He received a lot of attention in the recruiting episodes, Goku's confidence, got stronger than ever and even in the tournament, he also had several episodes focused on him, despite having failed a few times, even supposedly having become a true warrior . I think it would be exaggerated to expect him to simply get a new form and defeat Toppo or Jiren, he returned to training 1 day before the tournament

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Re: Retrospective - Tournament of Power

Post by Firebolt » Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:30 am

Krillin : Let's be real, we all knew he was going to be eliminated quickly. It still sucks that he got defeated by such a cheap trick though, despite his battle-smarts being hyped up so much in the recruitment phase.

Tenshinnhan : A complete dissapointment from start to finish.

Muten Roshi : A surprisingly fantastic showing from him. His clever tactics and selflessness cemented him as one of the best characters in the TOP for me.

Piccolo : He was probably one of the least interesting characters to watch, he was basically nothing more than Gohan's back-up for the entirety of his time in the arena.

Android 18 : Her character has been incredibly inconsistent this arc. She acts like a selfish drama-queen in one episode – then becomes a caring person the next. It's really jarring.

Android 17 : He's definitely one of the most important characters of the TOP arc. His nonchalant attitude and general badassery made him an extremely enjoyable character.

His theme song "Instant-kill Battle" is an absolute joy to the ears.

Gohan : He had a brilliant comeback in the TOP arc, finally Gohan is a warrior once more. He had some great character moments such as when U3 was erased, and some great interactions with Freeza.

Vegeta : He was kinda all over the place in this arc. I liked his speeches about not throwing away anything, and I also liked that the got his own unique power, as opposed to following Goku every step of the way.

But it seems some of the writers struggle to write a post-Buu arc Vegeta. As a result, he's frequently arrogant, selfish and childish, just like his past Cell arc self, much to me and many others' distaste.

Goku : He got some cool power ups and lot's of awesome moments (duhhh he's the main character).

It was kinda strange how he went from a selfish jerk who only cared about fighting strong guys at the beginning to someone who fights for his friends at the end though.

Freeza : He was characterized fantastic in this arc. Insstead of the whiny Freeza we got in FnF, we got to see the more composed – more terrifying – early Namek arc Freeza. Also OHOHOHOHOHOHOHO is just amazing.

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Re: Retrospective - Tournament of Power

Post by Spider-Man » Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:16 pm

Krillin: Had a good teamup with 18 but the way how he got eliminated was stupid and he really didn't do much despite being hype up in the recruitment.
    Tien: The most disappointed character.
      Master Roshi: His antic with Yurin was really uncomfortable but other than that I find Roshi one of the best character, his clever tatic against his opponent was great and his speech to Goku was emotional.
        Piccolo: He was alright I guess though I hate how he got eliminated.
          Android 18: Her teamwork with Krillin and 17 as well her fight with Ribrianne was great however she is inconsistent in this arc sometimes she is mean other time she is nice but at least she was treated better than Tien and Krillin.
            Gohan: He had a fantastic comeback in the ToP after how he was horribly handle in the previous arc. His fight with Obuni, The Namekians and The U3 robots was good and I like his interaction with Frieza though I hated how he was treated in episode 108 but overall I'm satisfied with his performance in this arc.
              Vegeta: Pretty mixed while despite being enjoyable in 107 and 112 however he was really annoying in 126 and 128 and SSBE was unnecessary.
                Frieza: His recruitment was one of the best episode and he has enjoyable thought he was poorly utilized during the ToP however him taking out Jiren with Goku at least made it up.
                  Goku: He was fine though he appears to much and I hated how he constantly let his guard down but he has one of the coolest moments and I like his interaction with Caulifla.
                    Android 17: The best character his calm and calculative personality made him enjoyable but the space poacher episode is terrible and the revival was underwhelming, he is the MVP in this arc.

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                    Re: Retrospective - Tournament of Power

                    Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:20 pm

                    Krillin: I really enjoyed his build up episode. When it came to the actual tournament, I thought he had a decent showing. Worked well in an individual fight, worked even better when teaming up, especially with #18, and even made a huge save prevent #18 from being eliminated. But his elimination was very anticlimactic. I mean, it did fit for the purposes of the Tournament Of Power, but, man I wanted more from him than just one episode. Oh well. - C-

                    Tenshinhan: He got fucked over hard. Had a horrible recruitment episode, and then gets his ass kicked in Episode 90. When it came to the TOP, he eliminates just one person, barely fights after that and then takes another character out of bounds while getting eliminated himself as well. He had a terrible showing in the TOP, without a doubt the worst handled character in the main cast in this whole arc. - D-

                    Muten Roshi: Holy shit. Like... where did this awesome performance come from? And it's made even more jarring by how bloody fucking awful his recruitment episode was. He interrogated with the team so well, they play to his strengths as a fighter and character, and his elimination was wonderfully handled. This is best handled Roshi has been since the 22nd Budokai Tenkaichi - A-

                    Piccolo: He initially didn't do much, but played a great role in the tag team match with Gohan against the Universe 6 Namekians. But then in Episode 119, while he was cleaning house against Universe 4, his elimination was poorly handled. I wish I could have seen a decent 1v1 fight with him - C+

                    Android 18: She had decent opening when teaming up Krillin, before disappearing for what seemed like an eternity. But when she came back into prominence in Episode 117, where she had a stellar episode (118), and then was eliminated in a fashion that benefited the plot and felt wholesome to her relationship with #17, which I got a major kick out of throughout the tournament, as well. I just wish she didn't bitch out at Krillin for getting eliminated, and her questioning #17 about wishing to bring back all the erased universes instead of wishing for his boat was outrageous. - B+

                    Gohan: Gohan had the third best recruitment episodes. The episodes focusing on him regaining his Ultimate form and then fighting Goku were great. I thought he did good enough in the tournament itself. He didn't really over perform, but at the same time he didn't really underperform, and in the end, went out on his own terms following his own well thought out plan. He really is the kind of character who thrives more when he has someone to work with, as seen in Episode 118 and with how he worked together with Freeza to take down Dyspo, as supposed to working on his own. I never really asked for much from Gohan from this arc as a whole, but I am a quite sad that this never really went anywhere. B-

                    Vegeta: Oh man. What a rollercoaster it was with this guy.

                    He had barely any build up to the tournament beyond the brief training in the ROSAT. He then bolted out the gates in the TOP with an awesome tag team episode with Goku against Universe 9, and then faded from the picture, only to unnaturally insert himself into the plot (Episode 106). But his presence became much more suited in the plot with Episode 107. I don't know what was up with him not giving Goku energy for Goku's Genki Dama against Jiren in Episode 109, and that really rubbed me up the wrong way.

                    His dynamic with Cabba was nice, and served as great way to develop his character later on. But then after that moment, he disappears for several episodes before re-emerging with his hilarious fight with Katopesla, where he decided to forge his own path of strength instead of following in Goku's footsteps. That moment I really liked a lot. His new transformation worked well enough for the themes of his character and motivation, even if it was aesthetically lackluster and lead to a questionable moment in the narrative in Episode 126. But considering how much Vegeta has busted his ass and went out of his way to get stronger throughout the show, coupled with his immeasurable determination to not fall behind, something he reinforced in literally the second episode of the show, I feel Vegeta brute forcing his way to a unique SSJB form and defeating essentially a Hakaishin feels very much thematically appropriate for his character. Especially in an event like the Tournament Of Power. His send-off episode was also fantastic.

                    If there is one major negative I have with Vegeta's, it's his characterisation. It felt a little uneven at times. With him going from being absurdly arrogant to the down-to-earth characterisation Super built for him prior to the arc kicking off.

                    Overall, he provided enough good moments to make his significant inclusion in the Tournament Of Power worthwhile. He's got quite a lot of good treatment in the tournament. He's made a huge difference in battle, is now level pegging with SSJB Kaioken Goku, became the first (and only) character to defeat a Hakaishin (even if the means to do so are a bit questionable) and took on the strongest mortal in the history of Dragon Ball with nothing but willpower. I'd say this is the best treated Vegeta has ever been in an isolated story arc in Dragon Ball. If only his personality was a little more consistent and he got a bit more build up before the tournament began. - B+

                    Freeza: Had the best recruitment/buildup episodes, was wonderfully characterised, greatly devolved, had fantastic chemistry with the cast (especially Goku), and just felt such an overall menace in the plot and in the tournament itself, until he bit off more than he could chew with Hakaishin Toppo and Jiren. And he had the perfect payoff.

                    I have to admit, I had zero expectations for Freeza returning being anything enjoyable as it was. Especially considering he was replacing Majin Boo. There were a million and one ways they could have fucked this up. But they took a story trope (a villain/antagonist being brought back to life) that was really old hat, especially in the context of Dragon Ball, and even more so in Freeza's case, and managed to turn it into something exciting, fresh and with a very satisfying conclusion. That deserves a hell of a lot of praise. Especially for a show like Super. - A+

                    Goku: Ah, Goku. You never never wrong with this guy. De Facto going to get the best fights by being the main character and all, and he had the best fights, not only in this tournament, but in all of Dragon Ball, in the Universal Survival arc arc. The fashion he attained Ultra Instinct was breathtaking, the usage of Ultra Instinct in battle was always grand and epic, he had great chemistry with Caulifla and Freeza and his characterisation was on point. Goku brought out the best in everyone, whether it was in battles or personalities, as he always does. No major complaints. A

                    Android 17: I didn't think you could anything out of a character that didn't have much to work with in the original story like #17, but holy fucking hell, they spectacularly over-delivered.

                    His return episode was fucking amazing, like, one of the best written and animated episodes in Dragon Ball ever. The follow-up episode... not so much. However, his performance in the Tournament Of Power was exceptional. He displayed great tactical and physical prowess in offensive and defensive battle and played a critical role in ensuring the safety of his universe and all the other universes.

                    Super gave his character arc progression and a definitive end. His story got closure. He has a happy life, with a well paying job that he enjoys a lot and has wife and children and is living in peace. He basically got the happy ending that #18 got but with more depth and personal meaning.

                    In the end, #17 in Super came back strong enough to face SSJB Goku, we see fully just how much his character has evolved, how much his life has positively changed from his perspective, how well he integrates with the cast (I absolutely loved the moment where he and Piccolo basically buried the hatchet and became allies), and how immensely useful and practical, whether its in strength, teamwork or strategy, he is in combat.

                    What a sensational comeback for this guy. More than deserved to win the Tournament Of Power. And I hope to see more from him - A+

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                    Re: Retrospective - Tournament of Power

                    Post by Torturephile » Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:16 pm

                    -Goku is the main character and Super is not ashamed to give him glorious moments. I think they focused too much on him in the ToP which came at the expense of other characters' focus, which could have been used to feed the weaker fodder he defeated to someone else like Piccolo or Tenshinhan. However, Goku's characterization in the ToP was majorly fixed since they toned down the childishness and clumsiness he had in previous sagas. 8/10.

                    -My problem with Vegeta in the ToP is that his characterization relied heavily in the differing skills of the writers. At some points he acted like his Cell saga self while at others he acted more like his post-Buu self. To make things worse, at the end of his run, he becomes a pokémon and parrots the same love speech over and over while he became subject of bad homages like Freeza. His moments in the ToP were OK, though his last two, against Toppo and his final fight with Jiren in base form, were handled badly. 6/10.

                    -I hated the fact that Freeza would replace Buu for various reasons, but eventually liked his portrayal during the ToP along for his cunning and composure along with his scheming against the gods. He was stealing the show for me every time he appeared on screen. While I seem to dislike memes in general nowadays, he generated some good ones since his comeback. That was until the last episodes when he was mishandled by making poor Namek saga references, with personality regression to his temperamental self, having not done not much in the tournament until the end other than picking on the fodder, and his scheming against the gods was oddly dropped entirely. 9/10.

                    -I don't care about Gohan. He did OK, but the whole deal about the ultimate form he sought in the recruitment episodes was never explored, and his role as a team leader felt like a joke which everyone ignores him. Piccolo nannying him was annoying. 7/10.

                    -Piccolo could have done more. He nearly felt like a satellite character to Gohan, acting like his nanny and his green meat shield, and barely had any one on one encounters or any team-ups with characters not named Gohan. The reapparition of Kami and Nail was interesting, however, and I found him constantly losing arms funny. 5/10.

                    -Android 17 stole the show with his battle smarts and developed personality, to the point which even an official Japanese Super website honored him with the MVP status. I think he got into overused territory after his supposed sacrifice in episode 127 once it was revealed he was alive in 130. 9/10.

                    -I was surprised that Android 18 had some good amount of eliminations, and I liked her moment with Ribrianne and her elimination since it served its purpose as to save the MVP from falling off the arena. Unfortunately, her personality varies from episode to episode just like Vegeta. 7/10.

                    -Master Roshi was a pleasant surprise with his battle smarts, showing that skills do matter (to an extent) despite his fodder-level power. His character arc with Yurin was exaggerated as he nearly raped the girl, though. 8/10.

                    -Krillin received perhaps the most hype before the tournament began, yet he did the least and was knocked off the arena for getting distracted by his few victories, which is pathetic. 3/10.
                    Last edited by Torturephile on Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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                    Re: Retrospective - Tournament of Power

                    Post by Asura » Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:49 pm

                    I like your grading system Lord Beerus, so I'm stealing it, but using numbers instead. Please don't destroy me.

                    Krillin:6/10 I really enjoyed the episode of him vs Goku, even if it caused a lot of controversy with SSB. He also had a great showing in his episode in the ToP, except all of that build up is completely wasted when he's the first one eliminated in only the third episode of a 34 episode tournament. I feel like it would have been awesome seeing a Krillin/Goku tag-team, and it would have been an unexpected treat to have him last a really long time. Oh well, coulda been worse.

                    Tenshinhan:3/10 While I really don't care for Tenshinhan (liked him in DB, didn't care about him whatsoever in Z) there's no doubt that he was given an extremely poor showing. 106 was a horrible episode, and a horrible way for Tenshinhan to go out. I don't think I even need to elaborate any more than this, everyone else has already said everything that needed to be said.

                    Roshi:8/10 This is obviously the best showing that Roshi has had since the original Dragon Ball days. With the exception of episode 89 in which he is almost literally portrayed as a rapist, and the terrible rape joke they make in 105, they treated the character so well. His team-up with Vegeta was unexpected and it's that sort of stuff that made the tournament fun to watch. The character has never been in a better position than he is now.

                    Piccolo:6/10 Ehh, he was treated okay, but him being Gohan's babysitter the entire time was really lame, why wasn't there a 17 and Piccolo team-up? He gets a good chance to shine against the U6 Namekians but that's about it. He gets eliminated in 119 which is without a doubt the worst written episode of probably the entire franchise, but I guess he at least put somewhat of a good showing near the beginning of the episode.

                    Android 18:6.5/10 I'm conflicted with 18. On one hand, she got quite a lot of time to shine and got a ton of eliminations, including her own episode (in which she didn't get eliminated in) in 117. How she went out with sacrificing herself to save 17 felt like a good departure point for her. On the other hand though, the writing of this arc makes 18 out to be some crazy psychopath bitch at certain times. For example, she won't even participate in the tournament that decides the fate of her universe unless Bulma pays her, which is ridiculous. Later, she calls her husband (or essentially calls him, I can't remember exactly) pathetic even after he saves her ass from elimination, and then at the very end of the tournament she asks 17 if he really wants to resurrect all the trillions of people that were erased from existence instead of wishing for a damn boat. Zeno should have just erased her then and there for saying something so stupid and selfish.

                    Gohan:7.5/10 I was expecting maybe a little more out of Gohan, I wish we would have gotten a team-up between him and Goku, and maybe a rage boost moment too, which has been the entire point of his character since his inception (although I understand he sort of worked through that with Piccolo's training). Still, as the self-appointed team leader he didn't do a terrible job, half the team wasn't going to listen no matter what, but he was even able to command Freeza and tell him what to do, which takes some balls and requires respect on Freeza's part to Gohan, so that was something. His departure episode was perfect except for the fact he was only in it for like 5 minutes, but I liked his strategy and how he was really portrayed as the team leader. He was portrayed as being pretty pathetic at times though, requiring Piccolo to constantly baby-sit him. Gohan has been out of commission for the entire show, so I'm glad that they made him powerful enough, but not overpowered. He was around middle-of-the-team in terms of strength which was perfect.

                    Vegeta:5/10 Vegeta is the most confusing character in the ToP, or at least with how he was handled. At times he was handled wonderfully, such as when it was revealed he wanted to win to wish back Cabba and the rest of the Saiyans. It expanded on the master-student relationship we saw in the U6 arc, and it shows that Vegeta cares greatly for the Universe 6 Saiyans, even if they aren't the same as him, they're still Saiyans. At other times though, he was handled horribly as if he was his Cell arc self. Doing dumb shit like charging at Hit in only SSJ, going on about how "Vegeta-sama will win this tournament!", and basically giving Goku the finger when he was charging the spirit bomb. You know something is fucky with the writing when Freeza is giving Goku energy for the spirit bomb but Vegeta refuses to. I've seen people say he didn't do it just so he could watch Goku's back with Ribrianne, but there's no reason why he couldn't give energy and keep an eye on Ribrianne too, plus his attitude was generally dismissive of Goku at the time. He's completely ignored during the recruitment part of the arc, and he only handles small fry during the large majority of the tournament.

                    Episode 122 is where everything completely turns around and the writers give overwhelming focus to Vegeta out of nowhere. He repeats the same speech at least 3 or 4 times, gets his own special transformation, gets his own special elimination on the #2 top-dog of U11 (despite them having no real chemistry with each other aside from the whole giving up pride/giving up justice dynamic that was introduced in the exact same episode that he eliminates Toppo in), and generally the character was simply all over the place. He ended on a good note, and him shedding tears when he realized he couldn't win and failed his family and his race (in U6) was a heartbreaking moment, or at least would have been if we didn't already hear all of that 3 or 4 times beforehand.

                    Goku:7/10 Goku is another confusing character in this arc. Initially, the arc seems to set up this concept that Goku's actions have consequences, and he's directly responsible for this tournament in which multiple universes will perish and trillions of innocent lives will be wiped out of existence. Oddly enough, Goku seems to give zero fucks about this and even taunts the other universes into fighting him. It's revealed that Goku actually did the right thing by setting this tournament up, since apparently the Zenos were going to wipe out the universes regardless, but that doesn't change the fact that Goku acted strangely villainous. Even more strange is that it seemed like the writers were setting this up intentionally, even having Toppo, a paragon of justice challenge Goku because he views him as evil. I theorized that since there's such a heavy focus on this aspect, that surely this would be a plot point that would come up later and they're writing Goku like this for a reason. Buuuut of course since the writing in this show is terrible it's a plot point that is completely dropped and Goku doesn't really act like this again in the actual tournament.

                    Goku doesn't treat this tournament seriously at all, and I guess that's fine for the most part since it is Goku after all, but the fact that we only had Goku think about his universe being erased ONCE (in the very last episode when he's talking to Freeza) is seriously sort of dumb, and even when he's about to be eliminated he doesn't think about his universe being destroyed, but instead that he would be letting his friends down if he lost.

                    The Buu arc handled this a lot better, with Goku being selfish and not caring at first, but eventually throughout the arc he cares a lot, and treats the situation very seriously. In the ToP you never really got this feeling that he was treating anything seriously until probably episode 129 when he activates UI for the third time. The arc was about Goku breaking his limits though, which is where UI comes from, but it was handled pretty poorly honestly. What even activates UI? It's rather muddled and confusing. Is it a response to overwhelming power like we saw with Jiren and Kefla the first and second time? But what about the third time? He activates it by thinking about his friends it seems. Not to mention all of the stamina atrocities that made no sense, which they tried pushing as a reason why Goku was trying to activate UI again. Still, for the most part he was handled a lot better than the FT arc where he acts like a complete and total dumbass.

                    Freeza:10/10 While I'm always very vocal about Super's multiple writing failures, I have to give credit where credit is due when they manage to whip up an absolute masterpiece, and Freeza is that masterpiece. Wow, what a character. I never cared much for Freeza. I liked him in the Namek arc since he was overwhelmingly powerful and full of himself, but after he starts losing and becomes a completely spoiled raging brat is when I started to not care about the character anymore. He returns to Earth and gets promptly sliced up by Trunks, only to be made a joke of in Fusion Reborn and GT. He's Z's second major villain and his fight with Goku is iconic because he achieved Super Saiyan, that's about all I cared for with the character. When he returns in RoF he's even worse. They give him an absurd power boost from training, and he pretty much acts just like he does before, underestimating the Saiyans and still looking down on them as trash. Sure, he does have a little bit more respect for Goku, but not much. So when I heard they were bringing him back AGAIN, I was so adamantly against the idea. Enough of this fucking character already, let him die. I am sick and tired of looking at this ugly son of a bitch. Sick and tired of his attitude and personality that never changes, and I was sure that as soon as the tournament started he would be betraying them within the first few episodes.

                    Instead, we get what feels like a completely new character. Gone is the Freeza who looks down on Goku & Vegeta instead of treating them as equals (or treating them with respect that they may be stronger than him). Gone is the Freeza who bursts a blood vessel after every other sentence. Instead, we get this cool, calculating and mysterious character that is incredibly hard to read as to what their main goal and motivation is, and how they will factor in with the rest of the team. He's a complete wild card, you can never tell what he's up to or what he might do. Will he betray them? No, that doesn't seem likely. Will he work together with his team and try to make them win without any thought of betraying them? No, that doesn't quite seem likely either. His dynamic with Goku is so interesting because he treats him with respect. Initially, he wants to kill Goku, but as he learns about the gods and their power it seems like he forgets about him and is instead focused on becoming a god. Goku is beneath him now. Multiple times during the tournament he saves Goku or gives him his energy, which is completely surprising and unexpected for someone like Freeza. When he's on screen you get so excited because he's such a mysterious wild card that keeps doing seemingly good things, but you know that he's got something else up his sleeve. He uses Goku like a pawn during the tournament which I find really interesting for someone like Freeza. He admits that he's absolutely no match for Jiren and his only hope in winning the tournament and getting resurrected is to put all his trust in Goku, which is one of the themes of the tournament, that Universe 7 is bound by trust. Freeza trusts Goku, and Goku trusts Freeza, and surprisingly they don't let each other down. This culminates in the finale when Freeza puts his faith in Goku's promise to resurrect him, and not only fights alongside him, but he even planned to selflessly take out Jiren by himself at first, which would have only left Goku & 17 in the ring, and barring Freeza from achieving his wish from the Super Dragon Balls. I am so happy that they brought Freeza back and turned him into such an amazing character. Seriously, well done Super.

                    Android 17:10/10 Yet another character that was handled FANTASTICALLY (with only one exception, well, maybe two). Who can honestly say they really cared about Android 17 before this? Sure, we always wanted to know what happened to him after the Cell arc, but was anyone really dying to know? Did anyone really fall in love with this character in the Cell arc? He seems to be given a new personality in this arc as well, becoming this cool, calculated, tactical deadpan character. As a million other people have said, he is the MVP of the tournament. His strategies and clever use of his energy shield as well as his devotion to almost ALWAYS sticking close to, and protecting Son Goku throughout the tournament was really what made him the MVP though. Seriously, he's almost always with Goku, or trying to be with Goku when they're separated to make sure he's alright, I loved it. Even when going up against enemies that he knew he couldn't handle (GoD Toppo, Jiren) he used his brain to try and figure out ways to beat them, or to run out the clock and win by numbers (which is something that no one else in the tournament thought of for some reason aside from Champa). I love his deadpan delivery of every line. He feels both emotionless like a robot and full of emotion like a human at the same time, and I think that's really the perfect way to sum up his character. He wants to be more like a normal human, with normal human emotions.

                    However, there are two exceptions to 17's amazing writing, but fortunately the character was written so wonderfully the rest of the time that I can't even knock points for these two exceptions (despite them being pretty major plot points). That is, the "death" of 17, and the reveal that he's still alive. The "death" felt sudden and forced. It literally happens in the last 2 minutes of the episode and there's not much build-up to it, it's just like oh, he's dead now... okay? I should have been feeling a lot of emotion for this great character that I cared about dying, but instead I felt nothing. The way it was written implied that a big reason why he was sacrificing himself was so Goku & Vegeta could get a few more seconds of rest. This point is brought up at least two or three times, which is ridiculous and shouldn't have even been mentioned at all. The way that the whole thing was set up was weird, and it didn't feel like this massive energy coming at Goku & Vegeta would be the thing that threatened to KO them for good, which also reduced the impact of his death.

                    But it's revealed that he survives, and in the most laughable (literally, I laughed) way possible. Those people that jokingly assumed 17 and Hit were alive and hiding in a pocket dimension? Well, there was sort of some truth in there. 17 pops up from behind his rock in 130 in like, the last 30 seconds of the episode and it's so anti-climactic. Just... sooooo poorly handled. Why couldn't we have had 17 be the one to save Goku & keep him in the arena? I've said it before but if the camera had slowly panned to him instead of Freeza it would have been an insane reveal. We were all expecting Freeza, but instead we would have gotten 17, and still alive! Woah! The shocker! Except what really happens is he crawls out from under a rock, goes "sup, guess i'm alive", and then the episode ends. Whatever, despite these being major plot points for the character they still don't bring him down. The writing for the rest of the character during the arc was so good that it completely makes up for it.





                    Overall, I think that with the exception of Tenshinhan and maybe Krillin, every character in this arc was handled the best that they've ever been handled in Super, and for some characters the best that they've been handled in the entire franchise's history. Without the ToP, we would have never seen some of these characters fighting again, and it felt really good after 2 straight arcs of just Goku & Vegeta to have 9-10 characters get some spotlight.

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