What in the Universe Survival Arc did you hate most?

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Re: What in the Universe Survival Arc did you hate most?

Post by EGonzo » Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:19 pm

I'm mostly okay with how the Tournament went, but there's one thing I disliked, and one I outright hated:

1) I really disliked Hit vs Jiren. He had a good participation during the tournament, but the battle against Jiren suffered from poor choreography and was just very boring overall. For a character that because one of the standouts in Super, he got a really disappointing ending.

2) WHAT THE HELL DO YOU HAVE AGAINST TENSHINHAN, PEOPLE?! Seriously, there were three key episodes where Ten should have mattered: his recruitment, the double battle against Gohan and Piccolo, and his elimination. In his recruitment he comes as an afterthought because Goku was looking for Master Roshi; the episode hypes Master Roshi up by turning Ten into a loser. Then during the double battle be should have taken on Piccolo and, even if he was outmatched, should have put a good battle similar to his fight against Trunks in the Borjack movie; instead he gets punched once by Gohan and is out of the battle. Finally, his elimination was so impossibly stupid I don't even want to talk about it.
I should probably add Ten is my second favorite character, after Goku and tied with Future Trunks.

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Re: What in the Universe Survival Arc did you hate most?

Post by Scorpio Kardia » Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:57 pm

Before I get started with my list, I just want to say that I did not watch the entire arc. I stopped watching after episode 119: "Unavoidable?! The Fierce Stealth Attack!!" because I lost interest and became increasingly frustrated with how long the tournament was lasting and with the direction the tournament was taking. I did come back to watch the last episode because I saw that Android 17 was the last man standing and I wanted to see how that had played out. So I missed ten episodes which I have no intention of watching at this moment. Since the arc made me drop the series I can most certainly say that I did not like it. So anyway here's my list, that way I can put my frustrations in writing rather than just complaining to the one person who listens.

1) The tournament never really felt like a battle royal. There were very few moments, that I can remember, where things looked absolutely chaotic and where it felt like you had multiple fights happening at the same time. You have 80 fighters in the arena, I realize it's hard to show all of them fighting at the same time. But, with that said, when most of the competitors are still in the game and you have characters with their arms folded, chilling in the back and watching other people fight, giving monologues and whatnot without being sneak attacked by anyone then you can't call this tournament a battle royal at all.

2) The 48 minutes served no purpose and made the tournament extra dull. I wouldn't even have a problem with it if they didn't keep reminding us of the time that was left. It felt completely arbitrary, and when you have a character fighting the same character for like three episodes and only one minute passes it hurts. Why not make it 5 hours or something? Plus unless characters also talk at the speed of light now then it really makes little sense that these 48 minutes took months to pass.

3) Characters can't fly, yet it looked like they were flying a lot of the time when the battles intensified. I did not think they did a good job at all showcasing that you couldn't fly. You had Goku and Jiren flying by other contestants during their "big fight" for crying out loud, and that's just of the top of my head there were plenty of other moments where characters were clearly flying.

Now to more specific complaints:

4) Seeing the "Trio de Dangers" eliminated so early on was disappointing to me. Yeah sure someone has to be eliminated first, and they had already showcased these guys abilities in the exhibition matches, but they were cool and had "unique" abilities, which didn't even come to play at all in the tournament. Lavender didn't poison anyone, Bergamo didn't absorb anyone's energy, Basil I guess kicked a couple of people but it was very much irrelevant. When you have so many competitors who lack any special skills or abilities, I really have to question why you would eliminate these three so early on. I really thought they had more to offer, at the very least have them eliminate someone by working as a team. I wanted to see more from the cool-looking wolves. :(

5) LOVE!!! I swear there was one episode were freaking Ribrianne said the word love more than 40 times. It was nauseating, irritating and not funny at all to me. I dreaded seeing her pop into the screen, because I knew what was about to happen and what she was about to say. It really was the most annoying thing in this tournament for me, and it made me feel stupid watching it.

6) The Zenos acting the way that I assume the creators of the show imagine their fans react to things. Judging by the YouTube comments and reaction garbage that I've seen online I would say the creators are pretty spot-on. I personally found it irritating and slightly insulting really. Because to me Dragon Ball should be more than random power-ups and big explosions, which is really the only thing the Zenos seemed to care about.

7) Saiyans are god's gift to fighting. Yeah I think Super, and to be fair Z, have pretty much shown that if you're not a saiyan then ultimately you don't matter because you can't transform. But to me this tournament really shows how the creators are 100% fully focused on the saiyans and will keep giving them random transformations purely for merchandise purposes. I get it saiyans are the best and if you're a human you're trash. They really did a good job passing that message which I'm personally bothered by.

8) Kale's personality. The obsession with Caulifla and the feelings of uselessness where beyond pathetic and so generic. It's sad that they can't give any female characters in this show an original personality for once instead of putting them in boxes. "Oh sis doesn't notice me! I will get angry and transform into big muscle saiyan!!!! AAAAAAAAH!" :?

9) The Goku vs Caulifla/Kale (Kefla) battle lasting 4 episodes. The fight dragged out to me, and it ultimately made me quit the show. I felt it was boring because there was very little going on at the same time the fight happened. Of course Kefla being essentially a more arrogant version of Caulifla didn't help either. At least Gotenks has some funny attacks, she didn't even have that aside from the generic multi-colored blasts. Again I get it, saiyans are the most important part of the Dragon Ball franchise, but come on.

10) Universe 7 vs Everyone. Of course the focus should be on Universe 7, that's the universe that matters. But having Goku and Vegeta alone eliminate like half of the competitors, and then having the other universes essentially take a ticket and wait for their turn to get vanquished by the fighters from Universe 7 was a bit much. At least have other characters score eliminations or simply not wait around until someone from Universe 7 is available to fight them.

11) Universe 11 was a big disappointment. When they first appear in the arena everyone acknowledges they are an incredibly powerful universe. Yet, aside from Jiren, none of them scored a single elimination. Even if most of them are irrelevant at least throw Toppo a bone. This guy was able to match Goku, and yet he did not score a single elimination? Wow talk about disappointing. Ultimately I just wanted to see other characters score eliminations.

12) A female character getting eliminated after Roshi threatens to essentially rape her, and if he does rape her she won't be and I quote "desirable anymore as a wife". It was bad in the recruitment episode, and it was bad here and it really shows how backwards the mentality of the people writing this show can be. I was embarrassed to be watching that scene, and I was concerned that more people didn't voice their concerns over it.

That's about it. I feel better now.

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Re: What in the Universe Survival Arc did you hate most?

Post by Toxin45 » Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:53 am

Chuquita wrote:Only thing I outright hated about this arc was the creepy Roshi stuff he did to Yurin and Uni 4 Dragon Quest-looking girl.

Now I change it from stuff I hated to stuff I strongly disliked, you'll get a longer list.

30 Things I strongly disliked about the Universe Survival Arc (in no particular order) :
-The arc was too long. I feel cheated out of what could've been a 15 to 20 episode long TOP followed by 2 to 3 more new story arcs. I was so tired by months of endless fighting in the same locale that it dulled the impact of what would've been an emotional punch of Super itself going on hiatus. (Unless tiring me out with repetition was the point so I wouldn't be that upset about said hiatus in which case...congratulations?)
-Jiren who went from being boring to being uninteresting to me. I didn't like Sasuke in Naruto, I don't like Outer Space Sasuke in DBS.
-I don't like Jiren's design either.
-The TOP arena is incredibly boring to look at. I was hoping for a more Hunger Games style arena.
-No one could decide where the hell Vegeta's head-space is supposed to be this arc; how he reacted varied too much between writers.
-Royal Blue Vegeta still looks strange and it's one of those things I can only really salvage for myself through interpretive fan-art.
-Dropped plot points and red herrings galore.
-I still think the Omni Kings are annoying. I only really connected with them when they were saying their goodbyes to Goku because it sunk in that this was gonna be it for weekly DB for an undetermined period of time.
-I don't even care about power levels but that stamina stuff was a joke.
-Making the tournament 48 minutes long created more logistical problems than they really needed. How about make it 24 hours? 12 hours? Something that'd help make the number of episodes to time make more sense.
-Not enough mystery. Not enough plot twists. Coming off the Goku Black arc the TOP felt too straightforward and lacking in speculation.
-Not enough plot.
-Whis giving Freeza his life back. Freeza's an irredeemable character in my eyes; he's the most villainous character in Dragon Ball; I don't like seeing him rewarded and I hope Shallot or Yamoshi or whoever pulls a Future Trunks in the movie and kills off Freeza to show how strong they are.
-Gowasu's team was incredibly disappointing. We just spent a whole arc with this guy and you're going to give him nothing but a team of useless throwaway characters? Really?
-Those Uni 3 Robots were so boring.
-The Buu bait and switch for the 2nd time. If you're not going to use him, don't tease people for the 2nd time that you're going to use him and not go through with it.
-The mean-spirited stuff they did to Yamcha. That was unnecessarily cruel.
-Introducing too many new characters in one go. I followed this show week to week and I know so very few of the new characters' names. Cut down the number of universes participating OR spend a couple arcs before the TOP being involved with the other universes like we were with Uni 10.
-Toei was not prepared for the logistics of a battle royale, imo. It looks like it works fine in manga format, but it's not something that translates as well to a weekly TV show.
-Whis using his powers to birth Bra was strange and anticlimactic. I'd rather have had a Bulma goes to the hospital to give birth episode. You don't have to show the birth; have it happen off-screen. Use allusions and stuff.
-Not getting to see 17's family; especially since they have him show Goku a picture on his phone, but not the audience.
-I wish the Fireballs' ki-based attacks had actual side effects to them like a lot of Precure attacks do; I wanted to see some elemental ki attacks or finishers that stun the opponent with love, even temporarily.
-I'm not even that big on Tenshinhan, but man what a dull way for him to be rung out.
-Not getting to catch a glimpse of the Salad King of Universe 6 after we follow Cabba to what I presume is Planet Salad. I've got this head-canon of the king as Vegeta with that beard from DBS episode 30 and I want to know if I'm anywhere close to correct on that.
-How rushed the ending was. It really felt like they originally thought they had 1 or 2 more episodes to play with and only realized too late about the Tokyo and Nagoya marathons.
-The 28 planets left with sentient life on them in U7 thing kills a lot of possible future plots for no good reason.
-Poor Trunks, Marron, and Goten are never going to look their age, are they?
-The recruitment episodes for the most part felt like they were wasting time; I'd rather have had more introductions to more of the characters we'd be fighting than reintroducing ones we know, OR spend half an episode on a U7 recruitment and the other half on one of the other universes and do that for a while.
-What was Jiren's wish? We'll never know; apparently.
-Piccolo's elimination was so bad that I can't even recall how it happened without looking it up.


I think that's about it. I could be forgetting something, but oh well if I did.
This arc in general was a very double-sided thing for me. It was not a total waste; there were some shining, enjoyable moments among the endless everything else that made it worthwhile enough to keep watching (because believe me if I really couldn't stand it or had been completely bored/turned off I'd have turned it off and dropped it like I have other franchises and shows) but man was the TOP more tiresome than it was fun.
Nah I don't they will kill off Frieza for a third time.

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Re: What in the Universe Survival Arc did you hate most?

Post by perucho1990 » Thu May 17, 2018 11:25 am

Roshi treatment: For some reason Toriyama wants to wank Roshi and its one of the main reasons why current Toriyama is worse than Kishimoto, Kubo, even Mashima.

Anime Jiren: A mongoloid that says bad one liners.

Writing: They made non U7 guys generic and obnoxious in order to make U7 likeable(Goku vs Kefla is the perfect example), overall writing was WWE level of bad.

Pacing: too slow

Designs: MUI is just bad, Omen was the better design overall.

Toriyamas outline: Its bad and the ToP proved that Toei had interesting ideas but couldnt execute all of them due to being restricted by the outline.

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Re: What in the Universe Survival Arc did you hate most?

Post by ZeroDio » Fri May 18, 2018 11:47 am

Universe 2 (especially Ribrianne)

- not enough unique attacks for certain new characters (Jiren,Kale,Caulifla,Kefla,Dyspo,Cocotte,Hopp)

- not enough new Attacks for certain old characters (18,Cabba,Hit,Frost,Gohan,Frieza,Vegeta)

- Not giving Gohan something like “Potential Unleashed enhanced Super Saiyan 2”

- Universe 9,10,4 basically being punching bags

- not trying to give Vegeta’s new Blue Form a cool name so that we wouldn’t get what we got

- maybe would have made Mastered UI have a Pure Silver Flame Aura & his hair act like Flase SSJ

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Re: What in the Universe Survival Arc did you hate most?

Post by R. Daneel Olivaw » Sat May 19, 2018 4:27 pm

Jiren had almost no personality for most of the arc, and still managed to be a very inconsistent character.
Universe 7 stomped pretty much everyone, no competition. At no point did U7 have less fighters than any other Universe, and they eliminated every other Universe, as well as nearly 3/4ths of fighters.
Universe 10 was treated as a meme and they absolutely ate shit, which is funny, but stupid and annoying.
Universe 9 was swept under the rug right away, apparently we had gotten enough of them in the Exhibition match so we didn't need to see much of them.
Universe 4 was hyped and wasted on a joke.
Tien got shafted.
MUI didn't need another damn hair color change.
Too much focus on the Saiyans, both U6 and U7.
Freeza really didn't need to come back again.
Buu was hyped and wasted on a joke.
There was no logic with stamina. It seems if you're from Universe 7, you can substitute sheer force of will for stamina.
There was no tension and a predictable ending. I'm hoping they're setting up a future arc with revived Universes 13-18, and they really should have teased that at the end.
Timescaling was nonexistent.
Recruitment episodes were boring, for the most part.
Beerus was upset at Champa's erasure, but no other Universe seemed to give a shit when their twin Universe was erased.
Freeza apparently had some master plan to overthrow the Gods or something, which was never really touched on again.
It lasted too long.

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Re: What in the Universe Survival Arc did you hate most?

Post by PFM18 » Sat May 19, 2018 5:15 pm

EGonzo wrote:I'm mostly okay with how the Tournament went, but there's one thing I disliked, and one I outright hated:

1) I really disliked Hit vs Jiren. He had a good participation during the tournament, but the battle against Jiren suffered from poor choreography and was just very boring overall. For a character that because one of the standouts in Super, he got a really disappointing ending.

2) WHAT THE HELL DO YOU HAVE AGAINST TENSHINHAN, PEOPLE?! Seriously, there were three key episodes where Ten should have mattered: his recruitment, the double battle against Gohan and Piccolo, and his elimination. In his recruitment he comes as an afterthought because Goku was looking for Master Roshi; the episode hypes Master Roshi up by turning Ten into a loser. Then during the double battle be should have taken on Piccolo and, even if he was outmatched, should have put a good battle similar to his fight against Trunks in the Borjack movie; instead he gets punched once by Gohan and is out of the battle. Finally, his elimination was so impossibly stupid I don't even want to talk about it.
I should probably add Ten is my second favorite character, after Goku and tied with Future Trunks.
I mean would it really make sense for Tien NOT to be punched once by Gohan and be out of the fight? Tien is a human and throughout the entire story the humans were always far far behind the Saiyans. Gohan after his training with Piccolo was extremely strong and it would be irrational for Tien to be able to compete given the precedent that was set in the previous 500+ episodes of the Dragon Ball franchise.

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Re: What in the Universe Survival Arc did you hate most?

Post by EGonzo » Sat May 19, 2018 5:33 pm

PFM18 wrote:
I mean would it really make sense for Tien NOT to be punched once by Gohan and be out of the fight? Tien is a human and throughout the entire story the humans were always far far behind the Saiyans. Gohan after his training with Piccolo was extremely strong and it would be irrational for Tien to be able to compete given the precedent that was set in the previous 500+ episodes of the Dragon Ball franchise.
I definitely agree on the Gohan thing. What I meant is that they had the perfect set up of Gohan busy with Goku and Tien taking on Piccolo, and instead chose to have Gohan bitch slap him out of the fight for no reason. It almost feels like they did it out of spite.

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Re: What in the Universe Survival Arc did you hate most?

Post by PFM18 » Sat May 19, 2018 5:41 pm

EGonzo wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
I mean would it really make sense for Tien NOT to be punched once by Gohan and be out of the fight? Tien is a human and throughout the entire story the humans were always far far behind the Saiyans. Gohan after his training with Piccolo was extremely strong and it would be irrational for Tien to be able to compete given the precedent that was set in the previous 500+ episodes of the Dragon Ball franchise.
I definitely agree on the Gohan thing. What I meant is that they had the perfect set up of Gohan busy with Goku and Tien taking on Piccolo, and instead chose to have Gohan bitch slap him out of the fight for no reason. It almost feels like they did it out of spite.
Yeah I understand that. There could have been a more even match up with Piccolo. Still, Piccolo should still be head and shoulders above Tien at this point too. The thing with that scene is that the series has already set the precedent that the humans are very weak and they need to stick to what was already established previously in DB/DBZ/the first 100 episodes of DBS. If Tien is suddenly relevant in strength it would make no sense and would be inconsistent with what we were told before. I think maybe Tien fights Piccolo for a while before Piccolo reveals he had been suppressed, is about the only rational way that Tien could even last in the fight.

90% of these criticisms are either contradicting themselves, small nitpicks, or are a result of misinterpreting something. Shows how amazing this arc really was.

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Re: What in the Universe Survival Arc did you hate most?

Post by R. Daneel Olivaw » Sat May 19, 2018 6:07 pm

PFM18 wrote:90% of these criticisms are either contradicting themselves, small nitpicks, or are a result of misinterpreting something. Shows how amazing this arc really was.
It was 35 episodes of 80 guys standing around in one room and punching each other for 48 minutes. I wouldn't call that "amazing." Did it look cool for the most part and have badass music? Yes, but the story was lacking, even for Dragon Ball. It depends what you mean by an "amazing arc." If you're saying it was clever and well-written, I'd disagree, but if you're saying it's really epic and got you to keep watching, I'd have to agree.

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Re: What in the Universe Survival Arc did you hate most?

Post by PFM18 » Sat May 19, 2018 6:37 pm

R. Daneel Olivaw wrote:
PFM18 wrote:90% of these criticisms are either contradicting themselves, small nitpicks, or are a result of misinterpreting something. Shows how amazing this arc really was.
It was 35 episodes of 80 guys standing around in one room and punching each other for 48 minutes. I wouldn't call that "amazing." Did it look cool for the most part and have badass music? Yes, but the story was lacking, even for Dragon Ball. It depends what you mean by an "amazing arc." If you're saying it was clever and well-written, I'd disagree, but if you're saying it's really epic and got you to keep watching, I'd have to agree.
I mean DB stories are ALWAYS extremely basic. I mean it wasn't much of a conventional "story" but that is more of an inherent quality of being a tournament. This is the 5th tournament arc in the franchise and this, to me, was by far the best one. Great character moments, amazing fights, good concept overall. The complexity of the story was limited just by virtue of the fact that it was a tournament and I don't get really think that is fair to hold that against it. Also, yes i do believe it was overall well-written despite the problems it had. Ultimately, as an arc I would only rank the Namek and Cell Arcs higher.

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Re: What in the Universe Survival Arc did you hate most?

Post by EGonzo » Sat May 19, 2018 8:53 pm

PFM18 wrote:
EGonzo wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
I mean would it really make sense for Tien NOT to be punched once by Gohan and be out of the fight? Tien is a human and throughout the entire story the humans were always far far behind the Saiyans. Gohan after his training with Piccolo was extremely strong and it would be irrational for Tien to be able to compete given the precedent that was set in the previous 500+ episodes of the Dragon Ball franchise.
I definitely agree on the Gohan thing. What I meant is that they had the perfect set up of Gohan busy with Goku and Tien taking on Piccolo, and instead chose to have Gohan bitch slap him out of the fight for no reason. It almost feels like they did it out of spite.
Yeah I understand that. There could have been a more even match up with Piccolo. Still, Piccolo should still be head and shoulders above Tien at this point too. The thing with that scene is that the series has already set the precedent that the humans are very weak and they need to stick to what was already established previously in DB/DBZ/the first 100 episodes of DBS. If Tien is suddenly relevant in strength it would make no sense and would be inconsistent with what we were told before. I think maybe Tien fights Piccolo for a while before Piccolo reveals he had been suppressed, is about the only rational way that Tien could even last in the fight.

90% of these criticisms are either contradicting themselves, small nitpicks, or are a result of misinterpreting something. Shows how amazing this arc really was.
Once again I agree with you. I would have taken a suppressed Piccolo (who in the TOP arc is around SS2 level or so) against Tien, if only to have a good Tien fight for the first time since the Piccolo Jr. Saga. It also would have been good for him to use his many techniques to at least stall for time. He would have still been weak but not useless, which is how the anime and even worse the manga portrayed him.

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