some thoughts about TOP

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Shuby
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some thoughts about TOP

Post by Shuby » Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:11 pm

I need to address the plot issues with this show's attempt at rebooting what we were told.

1) The Grand Priest claimed early on that Zeno was sick of multiple universes, so Goku's suggestion gave him a nice idea for thining the heard. But NOW we're supposed to believe that this was all part of some stupid moral lesson?

2) If that's the case, then how come he excluded the other 4 universes? Apparently it was because their powers were too high, but if they're trying to teach a lesson about being selfless, then there's no reason the other four shouldn't be involved, unless it's so that we can have Fairy Tail moments where U7 is all like (You guys are selfish, you didn't experience the Tournament of Power, so you don't know the true value of family!)

3) I think this is a big one here. The show now wants to give Zeno a soft reboot to his character, yet he didn't do jack shit when Zamasu was wrecking all of existence. Hell, even to this day, the Zeno from Trunks' time doesn't seem upset about that at all.

4) Come to think of it, how can they even attempt to give Zeno a soft reboot when they made a point about how he destroyed 6 universes in the past because they annoyed him? Seriously, how fucking stupid do these writers think their viewers are?

5) Jiren trusted Toppo enough to beat Vegeta to the point he got annoyed Toppo didn't deliver, then he talks about what trust is later on

6) Whis talks about how UI Goku threw everything away and is only focused on the battle, but he later gets angry when Jiren attempted to attack his friends, granted Goku supposedly mastered UI but it didn't note if he can do that now

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Re: some thoughts about TOP

Post by Eternal Super Saiyan » Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:52 pm

Yeah towards the end there I can agree that Toppo's and Jiren's characters completely went against what they stood for in the beginning.

And how could someone who is overly obsessed about "justice and morals" later possibly be the next God of Destruction in their own Universe?
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Re: some thoughts about TOP

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:57 pm

yet he didn't do jack shit when Zamasu was wrecking all of existence.
Zamasu and Black were smart and carried out their Zero Mortals Plan in secret, making sure that Zeno wouldn't find out what they were doing.
My form is justice. And my form is the world. Worship me. Give praise unto me. Me, the beautiful, the sublime... Me, the invincible, the almighty and divine... All hail Zamasu.

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Re: some thoughts about TOP

Post by MKCSTEALTH » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:44 pm

It did feel like somewhere in the middle of things there was a narrative shift. They played up the erasure of the original universes as serious affairs and each had a certain weight to it. The only ones that got tossed aside were U4 and U3.

The exempt universes were exempt not because their mortals were too powerful, but the quality of life in their universes were higher because of the fact the GoDs and Kai's were working together efficiently.

Zeno wasn't upset because he doesn't care. He's the Omni King. He just saw that the Zamasu was annoying and erased him. Even when they came back to that timeline he was just floating in nothingness.

Regarding Toppo and Jiren: there's a difference between thinking someone can get something done, and fighting for someone other than oneself. That's like how Jiren figured Toppo and Dyspo could handle any threats once he eliminated Hit. He trusted them to get the job done. Now fighting for them, that's another story. He didn't care about the other pride troopers. He only cared about himself and, to some extent, getting stronger. To Jiren, nothing else matters. By the end, he saw the power that came from fighting for others. So much so that two people who essentially despise one another set aside their differences for one brief moment to defeat him.

Omen Goku and Mastered Goku were two different beasts. Omen Goku barely spoke during his battle against Jiren (against Kefla I feel he was focused on getting his body used to the form). Mastered Goku his body was able to react and he was able to attack and dodge effortlessly. And who knows, maybe that moment of rage was what led to his body finally crumbling under the power

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Re: some thoughts about TOP

Post by ToshioWrites » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:48 pm

Jirens lack of trust in others was justified. His entire team let him down. the other 9 pride troopers had ZERO, I repeat ZERO eliminations. An old hermit who spent the past 2 decades plus at his house masturbating had more eliminations than the non jiren pride troopers

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Re: some thoughts about TOP

Post by Kataphrut » Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:12 am

I had this thought about the Tournament of Power which is that had a lot of interesting ideas in the beginning that segued into decently satisfying resolutions, and yet completely lacked a throughline between them. There was no "middle", so to speak. For example, Toppo going from a hero of justice to giving that up to become a Destroyer. We never got a sense of his struggle, he just went from one to the other. The closest we got was one random line after Dyspo lost to Hit.

I think the reason I'm fine with a lot of these is they don't actually feel contradictory. Zeno going from childlike destroyer to secretly testing mortals works because they never sold his issues with the low-ranked universes to begin with. We're told by the Grand Priest that he's evaluated the other universes and feels there are too many, but you never get the impression that his "job" is hard for him or that he cares enough about the running of the other universes to take such a drastic step. He's too simple for any of that. Him wanting the best for everyone in the end feels more in-character than if he'd refused to let them restore the universes.

Similarly, as poorly as the endgame reveals about Jiren were handled, what we learned was pretty much on point with what we'd already seen. He came across like an anti-social bastard throughout most of the Tournament and that's exactly what he turned out to be. I think it only felt like a swerve because everyone was waiting for the moment he'd stop being so stoic and turn into the virtuous Superman-expy we thought he was.

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Re: some thoughts about TOP

Post by JazzMazz » Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:45 am

Shuby wrote:I need to address the plot issues with this show's attempt at rebooting what we were told.

1) The Grand Priest claimed early on that Zeno was sick of multiple universes, so Goku's suggestion gave him a nice idea for thining the heard. But NOW we're supposed to believe that this was all part of some stupid moral lesson?

2) If that's the case, then how come he excluded the other 4 universes? Apparently it was because their powers were too high, but if they're trying to teach a lesson about being selfless, then there's no reason the other four shouldn't be involved, unless it's so that we can have Fairy Tail moments where U7 is all like (You guys are selfish, you didn't experience the Tournament of Power, so you don't know the true value of family!)

3) I think this is a big one here. The show now wants to give Zeno a soft reboot to his character, yet he didn't do jack shit when Zamasu was wrecking all of existence. Hell, even to this day, the Zeno from Trunks' time doesn't seem upset about that at all.

4) Come to think of it, how can they even attempt to give Zeno a soft reboot when they made a point about how he destroyed 6 universes in the past because they annoyed him? Seriously, how fucking stupid do these writers think their viewers are?

5) Jiren trusted Toppo enough to beat Vegeta to the point he got annoyed Toppo didn't deliver, then he talks about what trust is later on

6) Whis talks about how UI Goku threw everything away and is only focused on the battle, but he later gets angry when Jiren attempted to attack his friends, granted Goku supposedly mastered UI but it didn't note if he can do that now
1. Um yeah. He was going to thin the herd because he found those universes uninteresting, the point of the tournament was to really give the other universes a final opportunity to see if they could be better, or be more interesting than they've shown, and they passed that test. The test wasn't about being selfless necessarily, it was proving if the other universes of a lower calibre really deserved to continue existing. Being childish isn't the only aspect of Zeno's nature, his also considered a fairly innocent and noble creature despite his childlike traits.
2. The reason he didn't include those universes is because he found them interesting, they deserved to exist because they've done something with their existence, I don't really see the problem here.
3. I'm pretty sure they make it clear that Zeno was kind of unaware of Black and Zamasu's activities, hence when he learns of them, and the consequences of his actions, he eliminates the entire contaminated universe.
4. I just don't necessarily see the problem here, if something annoys Zeno, he erases it. If Zeno finds something uninteresting, he erases it. Despite being noble in nature, his also still completely childish. I don't understand the contradictation that your trying to point out.
5. He was merely using Toppo to his own ends. You can use someone to accomplish a task without trusting them.
6. I feel like Miracles covered this pretty well in this post.
Also, Goku didn't master UI. He merely completed the form on one occasion through an extended battle. He still has a way to go before mastering it.

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Re: some thoughts about TOP

Post by Shuby » Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:49 am

JazzMazz wrote:
Shuby wrote:I need to address the plot issues with this show's attempt at rebooting what we were told.

1) The Grand Priest claimed early on that Zeno was sick of multiple universes, so Goku's suggestion gave him a nice idea for thining the heard. But NOW we're supposed to believe that this was all part of some stupid moral lesson?

2) If that's the case, then how come he excluded the other 4 universes? Apparently it was because their powers were too high, but if they're trying to teach a lesson about being selfless, then there's no reason the other four shouldn't be involved, unless it's so that we can have Fairy Tail moments where U7 is all like (You guys are selfish, you didn't experience the Tournament of Power, so you don't know the true value of family!)

3) I think this is a big one here. The show now wants to give Zeno a soft reboot to his character, yet he didn't do jack shit when Zamasu was wrecking all of existence. Hell, even to this day, the Zeno from Trunks' time doesn't seem upset about that at all.

4) Come to think of it, how can they even attempt to give Zeno a soft reboot when they made a point about how he destroyed 6 universes in the past because they annoyed him? Seriously, how fucking stupid do these writers think their viewers are?

5) Jiren trusted Toppo enough to beat Vegeta to the point he got annoyed Toppo didn't deliver, then he talks about what trust is later on

6) Whis talks about how UI Goku threw everything away and is only focused on the battle, but he later gets angry when Jiren attempted to attack his friends, granted Goku supposedly mastered UI but it didn't note if he can do that now
1. Um yeah. He was going to thin the herd because he found those universes uninteresting, the point of the tournament was to really give the other universes a final opportunity to see if they could be better, or be more interesting than they've shown, and they passed that test. The test wasn't about being selfless necessarily, it was proving if the other universes of a lower calibre really deserved to continue existing. Being childish isn't the only aspect of Zeno's nature, his also considered a fairly innocent and noble creature despite his childlike traits.
2. The reason he didn't include those universes is because he found them interesting, they deserved to exist because they've done something with their existence, I don't really see the problem here.
3. I'm pretty sure they make it clear that Zeno was kind of unaware of Black and Zamasu's activities, hence when he learns of them, and the consequences of his actions, he eliminates the entire contaminated universe.
4. I just don't necessarily see the problem here, if something annoys Zeno, he erases it. If Zeno finds something uninteresting, he erases it. Despite being noble in nature, his also still completely childish. I don't understand the contradictation that your trying to point out.
5. He was merely using Toppo to his own ends. You can use someone to accomplish a task without trusting them.
6. I feel like Miracles covered this pretty well in this post.
Also, Goku didn't master UI. He merely completed the form on one occasion through an extended battle. He still has a way to go before mastering it.
1. First of all, we dont know if he found the other universes uninteresting, it was never stated in the series. All we know is that his mood was off with resulted 6 universe being erased, yet this being has some sort of moral code behind this tournament?

Zamasu and black erased gods, kiaoshins and multiple life forms in different universes, yet the angels or/and the grand priest knew nothing about this? Yeah right

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Re: some thoughts about TOP

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:51 pm

MKCSTEALTH wrote: Omen Goku and Mastered Goku were two different beasts. Omen Goku barely spoke during his battle against Jiren (against Kefla I feel he was focused on getting his body used to the form). Mastered Goku his body was able to react and he was able to attack and dodge effortlessly. And who knows, maybe that moment of rage was what led to his body finally crumbling under the power
Funny you say this, cause jiren never landed any hits on goku while he was in omen, yet a limit breaker jiren landed solid blows and bypassed UI’s defense mechanism a couple of times, and gave a mastered UI goku a lot of freaking trouble.

Maybe you can shalk it up to the fact that jirens power up has UI characteristics, allowing him to fight on the level of a mastered UI goku. But who knows, which i hate they never addressed what jirens power up is.

I agree that him raging what was led to his body crumbling, tho i think not because of his state of mind, but because it was too much power for his body to handle (its not even a power hakaishins have reached)

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