In defense of 18's hated line from Episode 131...

[Weejus]

1. The stakes were high, yes, but if all of those universes were never brought back, it's not like her life would be different. I could argue that the high stakes made her outlook change into an even more selfish one, since that's the human characteristic that comes out the most when one's life is threatened.

2. I don't feel the need to get into this one since it doesn't add anything meaningful to this conversation

3. To be fair, 18 never killed anyone in the main timeline, and she never intended to hurt anyone besides Goku, since that's what she was programmed to do. She changed yes, but it was nothing radical since this timeline's version was already a seriously toned down 18 compared to Trunks's future. And, she never gave the impression of someone who cares for something other than herself, her family, and money, even after she settle down with Krillin.

4. You don't get the point. She doesn't value the boat itself over the other universes, it's something much more than that. She values her brother's needs, cause it's actually something that she cares about, and that way more meaningful for her than a bunch of no names she's never gonna see again in her entire life. Wheather or not the universes were brought back , she won't get anything out of it, while on the other hand, if her brother wished for a boat, she would be happy for him, and that's definitely a better outcome for her

1: I never said anything about her life being any different regardless of the outcome.

2: Yeah, ok.

3: She was still (mostly) following orders to hunt down and kill someone along with her robo posse. They were still going around the world, acting like they owned the place. She may not have the same body count the alternate future version of herself does, but she was still a markedly different character whose worldview was radically altered by the events of that arc.

4: If 17's 'needs' were to get himself a boat, and she's hypothetically supporting the idea of him getting the boat over restoring the erased universes, then evidently, she would value the boat over the lives lost, which is what is so absolutely ludicrous about this scene.

Side note: I just cannot see her as being totally happy with the idea that 17 just traded the possibility of undoing all the damage done in exchange for a boat, which he could just get on Earth anyway, with or without the regular Dragon Balls. There's no reason Bulma couldn't have just lent him the Dragon Radar and get his boat that way.

[Michsi]

There's nothing wrong with that line, if you the know the character.

You already gave the right answer - That's how she is.
She doesn't even care about the boat itself. She cares about her brother.

The problem once again comes from the fanbase.

Those people are failing to realize that only because a character belongs to the main cast, he/she doesn't always have to be morally correct. Not even the main character behaviour of this franchise is morally correct. That's part of their charm and what makes them interesting to me. I guess it's easier to complain and make memes about it.

If that line came out from someone like Gohan or FT Trunks, now that would be weird.

Well, the thing is, if taken seriously, that lines means that A18 is (still) a sociopath at the very least. Which she clearly isn't. She's cold and reserved but not a sociopath.
Now if everybody could jump off their high horses and see things as they honestly are, it's just one poorly written line and that's it.

I'm pretty sure it's the writing that most people (myself included )are complaining about, not really the character. It encapsulates a lot of the series' issues - flip flopping characterization is one, and 18 has suffered the most from that. That line alone wouldn't have been so bad had it not come at the end of a long list of lines that were off.

[Vegeta_Sama]

1. The stakes were high, yes, but if all of those universes were never brought back, it's not like her life would be different. I could argue that the high stakes made her outlook change into an even more selfish one, since that's the human characteristic that comes out the most when one's life is threatened.

2. I don't feel the need to get into this one since it doesn't add anything meaningful to this conversation

3. To be fair, 18 never killed anyone in the main timeline, and she never intended to hurt anyone besides Goku, since that's what she was programmed to do. She changed yes, but it was nothing radical since this timeline's version was already a seriously toned down 18 compared to Trunks's future. And, she never gave the impression of someone who cares for something other than herself, her family, and money, even after she settle down with Krillin.

4. You don't get the point. She doesn't value the boat itself over the other universes, it's something much more than that. She values her brother's needs, cause it's actually something that she cares about, and that way more meaningful for her than a bunch of no names she's never gonna see again in her entire life. Wheather or not the universes were brought back , she won't get anything out of it, while on the other hand, if her brother wished for a boat, she would be happy for him, and that's definitely a better outcome for her

1: I never said anything about her life being any different regardless of the outcome.

2: Yeah, ok.

3: She was still (mostly) following orders to hunt down and kill someone along with her robo posse. They were still going around the world, acting like they owned the place. She may not have the same body count the alternate future version of herself does, but she was still a markedly different character whose worldview was radically altered by the events of that arc.

4: If 17's 'needs' were to get himself a boat, and she's hypothetically supporting the idea of him getting the boat over restoring the erased universes, then evidently, she would value the boat over the lives lost, which is what is so absolutely ludicrous about this scene.

Side note: I just cannot see her as being totally happy with the idea that 17 just traded the possibility of undoing all the damage done in exchange for a boat, which he could just get on Earth anyway, with or without the regular Dragon Balls. There's no reason Bulma couldn't have just lent him the Dragon Radar and get his boat that way.

1. Well, I didn't say that you said that. I said that to show one of the reasons why she doesn't give a crap about some universes that don't actually make an impact on her life.

3. But your argument falls apart if you consider that she was just basically a teeneger version of her present self, as opposed to the killing machine of Trunks's timeline. The only reason she and 17 were able to calm and settle down in the main timeline was their more "gentle " nature compared to their alternative counterparts. What I'm getting at is, just because she matured, it doesn't mean that her character did a 180° in personality. Her basic traits are always the same, just like with Vegeta's arrogance for example: He's still arrogant and prideful even though he's basically a complete different person from his Saiyan arc days.

4. She's supporting the idea of him beign happy, she's putting her family's happiness (NOT the boat. Seriously, it's not that hard to understand )over other universes she doesn't care about, cause they were her enemies not too long ago, and they were in the way of her own and her family's survival.

You are projecting your own morals into this. I'm not saying that they're wrong, but that's not how 18 thinks. Just because a character is not in synch with your point of view, it doesn't mean that it's not belivable that someone else can have a diffetent opinion

[Lord Beerus]

Regardless of how shite some universes were portrayed as being, they are still more valuable than a boat.

The point of the Tournament of Power (originally) was that the universes taking part are less valuable that any given wish that could have been granted by the Super Dragon Balls.

If Zeno is so childlike (despite his position) that his mood can change over the smallest thing, then there's no way someone he's even remotely friendly with, like Goku (remember, Zeno threatened to erase his guards when they got in Goku's way), couldn't change his mind. We've also seen that Zeno only seems to act affectionately towards Goku and his future counterpart.

And? Friendship, irregardless of how well founded it may be, can collapse with a single suggestion. Zeno may be childish, but he's not stupid. He's not going to forgo something he's been planning for a while just because one mortal he's acquainted with told him not to. And even it it does happen, what mot say there wouldn't be any strings attached, like what happened when Bergamo tried to bargain with Zeno at the Zen Exhibition Matches.

That doesn't really address my point at all. My point was that it was a terrible time to suggest that 17 'treat himself' or 'act selfishly', not whether it seemed that way in the eyes of Zeno.

My point is that the universe selected for the Tournament Of Power didn't have enough incentive for them to remain existing for one reason or another. #17 won a tournament, that involved disposable universes, where the best fighter could have any wish he desired. #17 has every right to make any wish he wants and it wouldn't be seen as selfish for him to not take into regard the other universe because he has no attachment to them, and these are universes that were set to be destroyed regardless, because they aren't good enough. I guarantee you that if any other universe won the Tournament Of Power, they would have not made the same wish that #17 did in the end. And would the reaction to that have been the same?

The stakes have never been this high, and the right option has never been presented so blatantly. The principal cast's amoral tensions worked better early on, but when the choice is between undoing the damage caused and acquiring a material possession, there's no room for it without making the cast seem like gigantic assholes and/or bloodthirsty killers.

The option may seem morally right, but it's very questionable as to whether it would have gotten the result we were expecting. Yes, in the end, Zeno was hoping for someone to resurrect the the erased, but hindsight it 20/20. There was no indication leading up to this that is something Zeno wanted. Hell, the story implied the opposite. There's every chance there would have been a scenario where Zeno gets upset over somebody basically undoing what he as been planning, and just erases everyone on the spot for it.

If these were universes that were selected at random, then perhaps the idea of not bring them back to life would be see as cruel. But it's established these universes are the worst, or at the very least, aren't doing enough to justify keeping them around. It's the equivalent of demolishing a broken down and underdeveloped building.

Lest we forget that how Goku and Vegeta acted after Kid Boo had destroyed the world.

[AnimeNation101]

One moment she thanks Krillin for saving her and the next she’s insulting him. One minute she speaks about love and the next she is asking why 17 didn’t just wish for a boat with the SUPER FREAKIN’ DRAGON BALLS instead of bringing trillions upon trillions of lives back from erasure.

It doesn’t matter what her personality was or de to bad writing. Its a canon line and it’s the most selfish thing i’ve ever read. More selfish than anything any villain in all of db has ever said.

[Vegeta_Sama]

One moment she thanks Krillin for saving her and the next she’s insulting him.

You know, it kind of reminds me of real women.
/s

[Weejus]

1. Well, I didn't say that you said that. I said that to show one of the reasons why she doesn't give a crap about some universes that don't actually make an impact on her life.

3. But your argument falls apart if you consider that she was just basically a teeneger version of her present self, as opposed to the killing machine of Trunks's timeline. The only reason she and 17 were able to calm and settle down in the main timeline was their more "gentle " nature compared to their alternative counterparts. What I'm getting at is, just because she matured, it doesn't mean that her character did a 180° in personality. Her basic traits are always the same, just like with Vegeta's arrogance for example: He's still arrogant and prideful even though he's basically a complete different person from his Saiyan arc days.

4. She's supporting the idea of him beign happy, she's putting her family's happiness (NOT the boat. Seriously, it's not that hard to understand )over other universes she doesn't care about, cause they were her enemies not too long ago, and they were in the way of her own and her family's survival.

You are projecting your own morals into this. I'm not saying that they're wrong, but that's not how 18 thinks. Just because a character is not in synch with your point of view, it doesn't mean that it's not belivable that someone else can have a diffetent opinion

1: Going back to what you previously said, then, you said she would be more selfish in this situation due to being threatened. There is no real threat once the tournament is over, because everyone else was dead by that point. As such, that doesn't count.

2: I don't see why you're comparing 18 with Vegeta in terms of a personality change, because that proves my point. Some 'basic traits' remain the same (like Vegeta's arrogance, which is correct), but they are both completely different people from their initial appearances.

3: She literally reminds him that he wanted to travel the world with his family moments after he makes his wish, with a distressed look on her face. Yes, she may be thinking about 17's family, but in this scenario, that is quantified by wishing for the boat.

I'm not projecting my morals. I'm going into this with the (not totally unfounded, as previously explained) mindset that 18 is a selfish person, but not sociopathic to the point of viewing the happiness of a few people (regardless of how close she is)/the prospect of getting a boat is the right thing to choose over resurrecting those who did not deserve to die.

Regardless of how shite some universes were portrayed as being, they are still more valuable than a boat.

The point of the Tournament of Power (originally) was that the universes taking part are less valuable that any given wish that could have been granted by the Super Dragon Balls.

If Zeno is so childlike (despite his position) that his mood can change over the smallest thing, then there's no way someone he's even remotely friendly with, like Goku (remember, Zeno threatened to erase his guards when they got in Goku's way), couldn't change his mind. We've also seen that Zeno only seems to act affectionately towards Goku and his future counterpart.

And? Friendship, irregardless of how well founded it may be, can collapse with a single suggestion. Zeno may be childish, but he's not stupid. He's not going to forgo something he's been planning for a while just because one mortal he's acquainted with told him not to. And even it it does happen, what mot say there wouldn't be any strings attached, like what happened when Bergamo tried to bargain with Zeno at the Zen Exhibition Matches.

That doesn't really address my point at all. My point was that it was a terrible time to suggest that 17 'treat himself' or 'act selfishly', not whether it seemed that way in the eyes of Zeno.

My point is that the universe selected for the Tournament Of Power didn't have enough incentive for them to remain existing for one reason or another. #17 won a tournament, that involved disposable universes, where the best fighter could have any wish he desired. #17 has every right to make any wish he wants and it wouldn't be seen as selfish for him to not take into regard the other universe because he has no attachment to them, and these are universes that were set to be destroyed regardless, because they aren't good enough. I guarantee you that if any other universe won the Tournament Of Power, they would have not made the same wish that #17 did in the end. And would the reaction to that have been the same?

The stakes have never been this high, and the right option has never been presented so blatantly. The principal cast's amoral tensions worked better early on, but when the choice is between undoing the damage caused and acquiring a material possession, there's no room for it without making the cast seem like gigantic assholes and/or bloodthirsty killers.

The option may seem morally right, but it's very questionable as to whether it would have gotten the result we were expecting. Yes, in the end, Zeno was hoping for someone to resurrect the the erased, but hindsight it 20/20. There was no indication leading up to this that is something Zeno wanted. Hell, the story implied the opposite. There's every chance there would have been a scenario where Zeno gets upset over somebody basically undoing what he as been planning, and just erases everyone on the spot for it.

If these were universes that were selected at random, then perhaps the idea of not bring them back to life would be see as cruel. But it's established these universes are the worst, or at the very least, aren't doing enough to justify keeping them around. It's the equivalent of demolishing a broken down and underdeveloped building.

Lest we forget that how Goku and Vegeta acted after Kid Boo had destroyed the world.

1: Any wish granted by the Super Dragon Balls. Side note: ignoring the idea of wishing for the erased universes, isn't using the most powerful macguffin ever to wish for a boat pretty damn wasteful in and of itself?

2: I think we're delving too deeply into speculation and reaching a bit too far outwards of the core topic, so I'm going to leave that one for now.

3: As I have said, you do not need an attachment to someone to see that they did not need to die. 17 only really has attachment to 18 and is on friendly terms with some, but not all, of the universe 7 team. As for other universes making different wishes, again, I feel that entertaining that discussion is steering too far out of the core topic.

4: We know very little about who Zeno is, what motivates them, or what they want out of the universes they govern. Trying to work that out would be an endless debate with no outcome. Also, the story has implied many things, but a few things just didn't remain consistent, so I tend to not place too much stock in whatever narrative setup DBS tried to get going. Again, I see no reason that Zeno's good pal Goku couldn't sweet talk them into seeing things from his point of view. Forgive me for asking, but what dictates the value ('mortal rating') of a universe in Zeno's eyes? For some reason, I had it as a rating of how well the respective God of Destruction (and other deities) does their job. And, embarrassingly, yeah, I have forgotten how Goku and Vegeta acted after Buu destroyed the world. I really need to get DB reread at some point.

[TysonWine]

You are projecting your own morals into this. I'm not saying that they're wrong, but that's not how 18 thinks. Just because a character is not in synch with your point of view, it doesn't mean that it's not belivable that someone else can have a diffetent opinion

This is what it boils down to. If Frieza made a statement such as "You must be joking! You're wasting your wish on dead people!" no one would have a problem with it because it fits his character. A lot of people view 18 as one of the "good guys" who couldn't be so selfish or heartless even when there really isn't anything we know about her that justifies this belief. Nothing about that line contradicts anything about her character. If someone doesn't like that line because it reveals an uncomfortable truth about a character they like, that's fine, but it's not bad writing just because they dislike it.

[Weejus]

You are projecting your own morals into this. I'm not saying that they're wrong, but that's not how 18 thinks. Just because a character is not in synch with your point of view, it doesn't mean that it's not belivable that someone else can have a diffetent opinion

This is what it boils down to. If Frieza made a statement such as "You must be joking! You're wasting your wish on dead people!" no one would have a problem with it because it fits his character. A lot of people view 18 as one of the "good guys" who couldn't be so selfish or heartless even when there really isn't anything we know about her that justifies this belief. Nothing about that line contradicts anything about her character. If someone doesn't like that line because it reveals an uncomfortable truth about a character they like, that's fine, but it's not bad writing just because they dislike it.

That's the difference. Of course Freeza objecting to 17's wish fits his character, because he has been consistently shown to not care about the wellbeing of others and only does things when there's something for him to gain. The end part of that sentence can also apply to 18, but on a much, much smaller scale. If she was really that cold, I sincerely doubt she would have settled down, married, had a child etc, especially not with someone they barely knew, regardless of what Kuririn did for her, if she's that heartless. There is no way someone who grew from a cold-blooded killer/Goku hit squad leader (depending on timeline) into someone that must be a decent person on some fundamental level. Even if she was seen as part of the fodder crew at the time, she still attacked Beerus when shit went down in BoG. I still see the line as being heavily contradictory to her character, or at least contradictory to her intelligence.

[superfan2024]

wait what line are y'all talking about?

[TysonWine]

You are projecting your own morals into this. I'm not saying that they're wrong, but that's not how 18 thinks. Just because a character is not in synch with your point of view, it doesn't mean that it's not belivable that someone else can have a diffetent opinion

This is what it boils down to. If Frieza made a statement such as "You must be joking! You're wasting your wish on dead people!" no one would have a problem with it because it fits his character. A lot of people view 18 as one of the "good guys" who couldn't be so selfish or heartless even when there really isn't anything we know about her that justifies this belief. Nothing about that line contradicts anything about her character. If someone doesn't like that line because it reveals an uncomfortable truth about a character they like, that's fine, but it's not bad writing just because they dislike it.

That's the difference. Of course Freeza objecting to 17's wish fits his character, because he has been consistently shown to not care about the wellbeing of others and only does things when there's something for him to gain. The end part of that sentence can also apply to 18, but on a much, much smaller scale. If she was really that cold, I sincerely doubt she would have settled down, married, had a child etc, especially not with someone they barely knew, regardless of what Kuririn did for her, if she's that heartless. There is no way someone who grew from a cold-blooded killer/Goku hit squad leader (depending on timeline) into someone that must be a decent person on some fundamental level. Even if she was seen as part of the fodder crew at the time, she still attacked Beerus when shit went down in BoG. I still see the line as being heavily contradictory to her character, or at least contradictory to her intelligence.

"If she was really that cold, I sincerely doubt she would have settled down, married, had a child etc"
What??? Plenty of evil/cold/extremely selfish people throughout history have gotten married and/or had children. King Cold liked Frieza enough to search the emptiness of space and resurrect him. We know that doesn't negate the rest of the things he's done.

"There is no way someone who grew from a cold-blooded killer/Goku hit squad leader (depending on timeline) into someone that must be a decent person on some fundamental level."
This is a slightly unfinished thought, but I think I know where you were going with it. And I agree. She's decent on a fundamental level in the sense that she's not looking to make others suffer. She lives her life for herself.

"Even if she was seen as part of the fodder crew at the time, she still attacked Beerus when shit went down in BoG"
You're reaching. We both know that scene exists to show how dominate Beerus was and so every known fighter was thrown in, nothing more. But if you want to go there, only Vegeta knew Beerus was a GOD at that moment. To everyone else, he was just some jerk who was interrupting the party who needed to be taught a lesson.

"I still see the line as being heavily contradictory to her character, or at least contradictory to her intelligence"
Contradictory to what? She chose her brother's fulfillment over the erased universes. When else has she been in this type of situation for it to be contradictory? This is where you truly make your argument.

"or at least contradictory to her intelligence"
So, now it's not a moral issue, it's an intelligence issue? The smart thing to do is to bring back all the universes? Look, if you don't like the line because you don't like what that says about 18's character, that's fine. But there's simply nothing wrong with it coming from her from a writing standpoint.

[nato25]

This is what it boils down to. If Frieza made a statement such as "You must be joking! You're wasting your wish on dead people!" no one would have a problem with it because it fits his character. A lot of people view 18 as one of the "good guys" who couldn't be so selfish or heartless even when there really isn't anything we know about her that justifies this belief. Nothing about that line contradicts anything about her character. If someone doesn't like that line because it reveals an uncomfortable truth about a character they like, that's fine, but it's not bad writing just because they dislike it.

That's the difference. Of course Freeza objecting to 17's wish fits his character, because he has been consistently shown to not care about the wellbeing of others and only does things when there's something for him to gain. The end part of that sentence can also apply to 18, but on a much, much smaller scale. If she was really that cold, I sincerely doubt she would have settled down, married, had a child etc, especially not with someone they barely knew, regardless of what Kuririn did for her, if she's that heartless. There is no way someone who grew from a cold-blooded killer/Goku hit squad leader (depending on timeline) into someone that must be a decent person on some fundamental level. Even if she was seen as part of the fodder crew at the time, she still attacked Beerus when shit went down in BoG. I still see the line as being heavily contradictory to her character, or at least contradictory to her intelligence.

"If she was really that cold, I sincerely doubt she would have settled down, married, had a child etc"
What??? Plenty of evil/cold/extremely selfish people throughout history have gotten married and/or had children. King Cold liked Frieza enough to search the emptiness of space and resurrect him. We know that doesn't negate the rest of the things he's done.

"There is no way someone who grew from a cold-blooded killer/Goku hit squad leader (depending on timeline) into someone that must be a decent person on some fundamental level."
This is a slightly unfinished thought, but I think I know where you were going with it. And I agree. She's decent on a fundamental level in the sense that she's not looking to make others suffer. She lives her life for herself.

"Even if she was seen as part of the fodder crew at the time, she still attacked Beerus when shit went down in BoG"
You're reaching. We both know that scene exists to show how dominate Beerus was and so every known fighter was thrown in, nothing more. But if you want to go there, only Vegeta knew Beerus was a GOD at that moment. To everyone else, he was just some jerk who was interrupting the party who needed to be taught a lesson.

"I still see the line as being heavily contradictory to her character, or at least contradictory to her intelligence"
Contradictory to what? She chose her brother's fulfillment over the erased universes. When else has she been in this type of situation for it to be contradictory? This is where you truly make your argument.

"or at least contradictory to her intelligence"
So, now it's not a moral issue, it's an intelligence issue? The smart thing to do is to bring back all the universes? Look, if you don't like the line because you don't like what that says about 18's character, that's fine. But there's simply nothing wrong with it coming from her from a writing standpoint.

Well written Tyson.

The evidence arguments showing 18 have not been enough to change my mind personally. She said she simply felt unnerved when an Universe 9 was erased and that Universe 2 ended up being pretty cool after all. That doesn't show me she cared about those universes just they left a very minimal impression and not one of caring enough to rescue them.

I can't get the actual line right now but 18 basically says to 17 that won't he be sad if doesn't choose the cruise ship he wanted over the wish he wants to make which is resurrecting all the universes.

[Kodoshin]

18 fights on the side of the main cast, but she has never shown much in the way of a moral alignment with them. I feel the line was consistent with her character. Not everyone is likable. That she would be that materialistic might be chilling to some, but there are people like that in this world too.

[batistabus]

It's the delivery of that line that makes it so absurd. If No. 18 had said it with a smirk as if she were teasing No. 17, then it would've been a great line. The fact that she seemed genuinely distraught by the wish was what made it so off-putting.

[Asura]

All I see is people mentioning her being selfish, sure. But how is that an issue when it's consistent with her character?

You just hate the fact she is selfish, but that's not the show's fault.
18 has always been a selfish woman who doesn't give a fuck about anything. Where is the contradiction?

There's being selfish and then there's literally thinking a boat is more important than trillions of innocent lives being wiped out of existence. She probably knows well enough that Bulma could have just given 17 the boat, especially since Bulma is apparently paying 18 just to enter the tournament, which is another incredibly stupid line of dialogue they gave 18. She's selfish and materialistic, but the fact that she needs money just to fight to save her universe is pretty crazy. What happened if Bulma said no? 18 would just be like "nah good luck then boys, make sure I don't get erased"?

Yeah, 18 is selfish and materialistic and doesn't have the best morals, but even this is ridiculous. For some reason a lot of people here just think that since a character has a specific trait, that it doesn't matter how overboard they go with this trait, it's still in character. Kinda like Goku's very noticeable stupidity during most of Super, yeah he's dumb but they cranked that character trait to 11. This is the same thing, taking one of 18's character traits and getting ridiculous with it.

As others have said, they added this line in to show that 18 cares for her brother and wants him to be happy and get his wish that he's been fighting for, but just like a lot of things in Super the writers have a good idea and then completely botch it.

[Weejus]

This is what it boils down to. If Frieza made a statement such as "You must be joking! You're wasting your wish on dead people!" no one would have a problem with it because it fits his character. A lot of people view 18 as one of the "good guys" who couldn't be so selfish or heartless even when there really isn't anything we know about her that justifies this belief. Nothing about that line contradicts anything about her character. If someone doesn't like that line because it reveals an uncomfortable truth about a character they like, that's fine, but it's not bad writing just because they dislike it.

That's the difference. Of course Freeza objecting to 17's wish fits his character, because he has been consistently shown to not care about the wellbeing of others and only does things when there's something for him to gain. The end part of that sentence can also apply to 18, but on a much, much smaller scale. If she was really that cold, I sincerely doubt she would have settled down, married, had a child etc, especially not with someone they barely knew, regardless of what Kuririn did for her, if she's that heartless. There is no way someone who grew from a cold-blooded killer/Goku hit squad leader (depending on timeline) into someone that must be a decent person on some fundamental level. Even if she was seen as part of the fodder crew at the time, she still attacked Beerus when shit went down in BoG. I still see the line as being heavily contradictory to her character, or at least contradictory to her intelligence.

"If she was really that cold, I sincerely doubt she would have settled down, married, had a child etc"
What??? Plenty of evil/cold/extremely selfish people throughout history have gotten married and/or had children. King Cold liked Frieza enough to search the emptiness of space and resurrect him. We know that doesn't negate the rest of the things he's done.

"There is no way someone who grew from a cold-blooded killer/Goku hit squad leader (depending on timeline) into someone that must be a decent person on some fundamental level."
This is a slightly unfinished thought, but I think I know where you were going with it. And I agree. She's decent on a fundamental level in the sense that she's not looking to make others suffer. She lives her life for herself.

"Even if she was seen as part of the fodder crew at the time, she still attacked Beerus when shit went down in BoG"
You're reaching. We both know that scene exists to show how dominate Beerus was and so every known fighter was thrown in, nothing more. But if you want to go there, only Vegeta knew Beerus was a GOD at that moment. To everyone else, he was just some jerk who was interrupting the party who needed to be taught a lesson.

"I still see the line as being heavily contradictory to her character, or at least contradictory to her intelligence"
Contradictory to what? She chose her brother's fulfillment over the erased universes. When else has she been in this type of situation for it to be contradictory? This is where you truly make your argument.

"or at least contradictory to her intelligence"
So, now it's not a moral issue, it's an intelligence issue? The smart thing to do is to bring back all the universes? Look, if you don't like the line because you don't like what that says about 18's character, that's fine. But there's simply nothing wrong with it coming from her from a writing standpoint.

1: I'll take the L on this one for not being specific enough, but I meant more as in 'she actually married a human' being the important bit, rather than 'she had a child'. Your logic is right on that one, I didn't explain myself well enough.

2: Yeah, I must have forgot to finish that sentence, sorry.

3: Perhaps I am reaching. I couldn't really think of a better example at the time, given her seemingly sporadic involvement within the narrative from the Buu arc onwards.

4 and 5: If you'll allow me to wax philosophical for a brief moment, I do believe that morality and intelligence are somewhat interconnected. You need to have at least a surface level understanding of how society works in order to have a basic understanding of what is right and wrong, which is usually taught from an early age (as an example, by UK law, someone is expected to know the difference between right and wrong by age 10, as from that age, a person can be prosecuted). As we know, 18 is not a full android/artificial human, but a modified human, unlike 16. She was never so selfish as to constantly endanger others and let people die for her own sake (if I were to be flippant, I'd say Goku is closer to fitting that description). I distinctly remember 18 urging 16 not to attack semi-perfect Cell for her sake, as she knew he would end up even more broken. At no point has 18 ever been presented as stupid (or rather, stupid enough to stand out from the rest of the principal cast in that regard). What I will say is that you ask me to reference another situation she has been in that totally invalidates this line. To my knowledge, there isn't one, and that's the point. Just because she never acted totally selflessly in a past, parallel scenario doesn't mean her line in the last episode of Super makes sense or isn't contradictory to the 18 we know as a selfish, but not cruel person. If she really wanted to choose her brother's fulfillment over the erased universes, she would have felt no need to interject with her idiotic comment about 17's family (i.e. the boat), as she would have realised that 17 was content in giving up his own selfish desires in favour of what he felt would best benefit everyone. I never said bringing back the erased universes was the smart thing to do (some may see it as being considerably reckless, given the presumed consequences for defying Zeno), but as I have said, when the decision is between a material possession that can easily be obtained through other means and undoing the deaths of trillions, of course the former option is dumb. In fact, forget the boat for a moment. If this isn't about the boat, but about 17 making his family happy, what do you think 17 could have wished for to achieve such goal without it being an object that you don't need the Super Dragon Balls to get?

As for your last point, maybe you're right. Maybe this is in line with 18's character, and I just don't like what it says about her. I don't think we're ever going to agree on this, though.

[Vegeta_Sama]

As for your last point, maybe you're right. Maybe this is in line with 18's character, and I just don't like what it says about her. I don't think we're ever going to agree on this, though.

That's basically what I was trying to prove to you in our previous conversation

[Amir]

All I see is people mentioning her being selfish, sure. But how is that an issue when it's consistent with her character?

You just hate the fact she is selfish, but that's not the show's fault.
18 has always been a selfish woman who doesn't give a fuck about anything. Where is the contradiction?

It's hardly consistent, which was my point. She's selfish, but isn't totally devoid of compassion, and certainly not self centred and/or idiotic enough to want 17 to get his boat more than undoing the needless waste of life.

Even in Dragon Ball, where people will say and do the dumbest things as and when it suits the narrative, no one is ever this mindmeltingly thick, even when the right thing to do is presented so obviously.

Yes she is. Your point about her not being totally devoid of compassion is itrelevant, in that very statement she showed compassion for her brother. She cares for her family and people that are close to her, not other people and certainly not other universes, which is consistent with her character.

You say she isn't self centered, and I ask again, what makes you say that? Where is the contradiction?
She is just extremely unlikeable

[Vegeta_Sama]

She is just extremely unlikeable

Not in every aspect though

[ekrolo2]

The whole boat thing is idiotic well beyond the line in question, the series treats it as something of a big deal as it motivates 17 (but his family and animals dying doesn't) and it doesn't work, not the least of which because Goku can just get him the fucking boat through Bulma or Earth's DBs.

The 18 line is stupid, but it's just the culmination of an aggressively stupid longer running thing.