In defense of 18's hated line from Episode 131...

[nato25]

After recently watching MistareFusions video on the Tournament of Power where he criticised 18's line as one of the worst in the history of Dragon Ball I really want to defend this line and see if anyone agrees with me or even if I can sway some opinions (I know I have a fat chance of that on the net but I'll give it a shot).

I really think this line is perfect for 18 to deliver. 18 is proven to be a selfish person and that selfishness ironically extends to her family. She wants the best for herself and her family above all else. Universe 7 won the tournament of power so her world is safe. Her brother wanted the boat and she wanted him to have that. All the other universes mean nothing to her, she couldn't care less if they didn't exist at all. She failed to connect to anyone in the tournament (unlike say Goku with Jiren, or Gohan with that locket guy), in fact most of the people in the tournament openly antagonized her as if they were villains.

If anyone can find me a line where 18 cares about anything other than 16, 17 or her immediate family in the entirety of the show I'd like to see it.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Exactly! #18 isn't all of a sudden this moraley just woman, sure she's settled down but that doesn't mean she is all of a sudden not gonna be selfish. She didn't want to compete until Goku bribed her with money, she chewed Krillin out for being careless (and rightfully so). It is very much in-line with what #18 would say.

Jiren did tonnes more worst shit and he was supposed to be a hero of justice, #18 was never that so I don't get the complaints at all, it's bizarre people hate it when our guys act like heroes and when they're not acting heroes people still dislike it, I mean what do people exactly want?

[Asura]

How about when she watched Universe 9 get erased?

18’s writing was all over the place in this tournament. She treats Krillin like shit after just getting saved by him, and then later goes on about the whole love shpiel. This was a terrible line and it shows that 18 literally has no morals at all which is ridiculous. She thinks getting a cruise ship is worth trillions upon trillions of lives being erased.

[nato25]

How about when she watched Universe 9 get erased?

18’s writing was all over the place in this tournament. She treats Krillin like shit after just getting saved by him, and then later goes on about the whole love shpiel. This was a terrible line and it shows that 18 literally has no morals at all which is ridiculous. She thinks getting a cruise ship is worth trillions upon trillions of lives being erased.

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If a cruise ship is her brother getting what he wanted then yes. I also checked YouTube for a clip of her reaction to U9 getting erased. She simply flicks her hair and she mentions that its natural to be unnerved by a universe getting erased. 17 does comment she has gotten kinder (which I don't doubt she is in comparison to the Cell arc) but not to the point where that line of dialogue seems out of place in my mind.

Also thanks Baggie_Saiyan for agreeing!

[namekiansaiyan]

No she is still a selfish, easily angered teenager.

Exactly! #18 isn't all of a sudden this moraley just woman, sure she's settled down but that doesn't mean she is all of a sudden not gonna be selfish. She didn't want to compete until Goku bribed her with money, she chewed Krillin out for being careless (and rightfully so). It is very much in-line with what #18 would say.

Jiren did tonnes more worst shit and he was supposed to be a hero of justice, #18 was never that so I don't get the complaints at all, it's bizarre people hate it when our guys act like heroes and when they're not acting heroes people still dislike it, I mean what do people exactly want?

When it comes to dialogue nothing comes worse than 18's line.

I don't think Jiren said anything wrong or out of place. His team let him down even if he didn't help him.

He tried to kill Universe 7 in the stands which might be bad but I was someone who wanted his attack to hit and destroy Unierse 7.

[Michsi]

How about when she watched Universe 9 get erased?

18’s writing was all over the place in this tournament. She treats Krillin like shit after just getting saved by him, and then later goes on about the whole love shpiel. This was a terrible line and it shows that 18 literally has no morals at all which is ridiculous. She thinks getting a cruise ship is worth trillions upon trillions of lives being erased.

\

If a cruise ship is her brother getting what he wanted then yes. I also checked YouTube for a clip of her reaction to U9 getting erased. She simply flicks her hair and she mentions that its natural to be unnerved by a universe getting erased. 17 does comment she has gotten kinder (which I don't doubt she is in comparison to the Cell arc) but not to the point where that line of dialogue seems out of place in my mind.

Also thanks Baggie_Saiyan for agreeing!

From a narrative perspective, it absolutely makes no sense to point out how kind she had gotten at the very start of the tournament, then have her final line highlight that supposed selfishness.( And it's not just U9, she is moved by U2's erasure as well.) Either-way, that line goes beyond selfishness; it makes her seem downright heartless, when I'm absolutely certain the writers were aiming to show the exact opposite - 'look how caring she is. she cares about her brother'. They could've delivered that concern in far more appropriate manner, one that doesn't necessarily hint at her putting more value in her brother's possessions than in the countless lives that were erased.

I can't take this line seriously, because I seriously don't believe 18 is the sort of character that would genuinely choose a boat over a life, but the writers wanted to show a warm, concern-driven moment between the two and thought this line was good enough....

Problem is, this isn't the only case of mismatching characterization in regards to 18 in this arc. As I've stated before, her character has been all over the place, making her look pretty bad at the end of it. Guess all the effort went to her brother.

[BlueBasilisk]

I thought the reaction to that line was way out of proportion to what she actually said. 17 is her brother and it made perfect sense to me that she'd be worried if he was okay with that wish when he'd spent the entire tournament up to 127 competing for something else for his family.

But I wasn't bothered by 18 busting Krillin's chestnuts in 99 either. He got knocked out being stupid. I seem to recall her calling him spineless or something similar in EoZ when he was complaining about not competing. 18 obviously loves him a lot but she's still 18.

[Lord Beerus]

I have to admit, I thought that line was a little outrageous. But I thought it was still in-character given how she's a very materialistic person.

[Michsi]

I have to admit, I thought that line was a little outrageous. But I thought it was still in-character given how she's a very materialistic person.

To that degree? I also think 'materialistic' fits her, but there are levels to that, too.

Still say this was a flub from the writers that wanted a heartfelt moment and didn't quite think the implications through. I mean, Krillin being that surprised at the wish was over-dramatization too.

[Vegeta_Sama]

I have to admit, I thought that line was a little outrageous. But I thought it was still in-character given how she's a very materialistic person.

To that degree? I also think 'materialistic' fits her, but there are levels to that, too.

Still say this was a flub from the writers that wanted a heartfelt moment and didn't quite think the implications through. I mean, Krillin being that surprised at the wish was over-dramatization too.

I don't think it was over-dramatized. Who would have thought that 17 out of all people would be the one ro bring back all of the universes? In-universe (sorry for the redundant use of the word) pretty much everybody accepted the fact that the universes were gone forever, so it was quite a shocker.

[CJStriker_CBR]

If anyone can find me a line where 18 cares about anything other than 16, 17 or her immediate family in the entirety of the show I'd like to see it.

From a narrative perspective, it absolutely makes no sense to point out how kind she had gotten at the very start of the tournament, then have her final line highlight that supposed selfishness.( And it's not just U9, she is moved by U2's erasure as well.)

Yes, Android 18 has a Very Caring and Respectful line when it came to the point of when U2 got erased, she and 17 hand a quiet moment with each other for that moment and 18 said the words below that I felt showed she cared about what just happen to U2 and the factory they where who they where no matter what happen and they where Cool Folks for it.

IMO I interpreted this moment as a major moment of caring by 18 and 17 that has lasted long with me, so I feel it represents a moment of 18 caring about others outside of her family and know friends.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

I have to admit, I thought that line was a little outrageous. But I thought it was still in-character given how she's a very materialistic person.

To that degree? I also think 'materialistic' fits her, but there are levels to that, too.

Still say this was a flub from the writers that wanted a heartfelt moment and didn't quite think the implications through. I mean, Krillin being that surprised at the wish was over-dramatization too.

I don't think it was over-dramatized. Who would have thought that 17 out of all people would be the one ro bring back all of the universes? In-universe (sorry for the redundant use of the word) pretty much everybody accepted the fact that the universes were gone forever, so it was quite a shocker.

Right especially when #17 bonded over no one in the ToP. Vegeta already was gonna wish back and Goku definitely would have since he said he wanted to see U6 girls again and Jiren. #17 had no reason to do it hence the surprise by everyone when he did.

[TysonWine]

After recently watching MistareFusions video on the Tournament of Power where he criticised 18's line as one of the worst in the history of Dragon Ball I really want to defend this line and see if anyone agrees with me or even if I can sway some opinions (I know I have a fat chance of that on the net but I'll give it a shot).

I really think this line is perfect for 18 to deliver. 18 is proven to be a selfish person and that selfishness ironically extends to her family. She wants the best for herself and her family above all else. Universe 7 won the tournament of power so her world is safe. Her brother wanted the boat and she wanted him to have that. All the other universes mean nothing to her, she couldn't care less if they didn't exist at all. She failed to connect to anyone in the tournament (unlike say Goku with Jiren, or Gohan with that locket guy), in fact most of the people in the tournament openly antagonized her as if they were villains.

If anyone can find me a line where 18 cares about anything other than 16, 17 or her immediate family in the entirety of the show I'd like to see it.

I think your missing the point as to why some people don't like the line. I can see why you would say it matches her character (but there are levels to selfishness). And that's the problem. Android 18 has a lot of fans. Up to the TOP, Android 18 was the only relevant female fighter in Dragon Ball. She's also on the good side or our side so to speak. The side we're supposed to be rooting for. And some people like her design. I point this out to say, there are people who WANT to like the character for one reason or another.

Super has given 18 fans very little reason to like the character. Her humbling of the Saiyan Prince is in the distant past. She's selfish and all she cares about is money. These traits culminated in the TOP. Forget the universe, why would she of all people fight unless she got paid? Who cares about the universes when her brother's boat is a wish away? That line didn't just reinforce who she is, it pushed it to the max and then some. There's no denying or running away from it.

I agree with you and Baggie Saiyan. It didn't contradict anything. Flanderized maybe, but this is who the writers decided 18 is. The mistake people are making is that they see her as being on the "good" side, so they expect her to be "good" in the same way they consider the rest of the Z-fighters "good."

[Weejus]

She may be selfish and perhaps lacking in morals to an extent, but the line was still really stupid and out of character. If you honestly think she didn't see there were more important things at stake in that moment than a boat, you're saying she really is that dim. I've recently come to realise that 18 essentially undergoes the same character arc as Piccolo or Vegeta, but in a much faster and less developed way. There is no way she is so callous/moronic as to value a boat over trillions of lives casually erased for sport.

[PsionicWarrior]

I honestly couldn't say if it was out of character or not but for sure I wanted to slap her in the face big time for that line lol

[Amir]

All I see is people mentioning her being selfish, sure. But how is that an issue when it's consistent with her character?

You just hate the fact she is selfish, but that's not the show's fault.
18 has always been a selfish woman who doesn't give a fuck about anything. Where is the contradiction?

[Weejus]

All I see is people mentioning her being selfish, sure. But how is that an issue when it's consistent with her character?

You just hate the fact she is selfish, but that's not the show's fault.
18 has always been a selfish woman who doesn't give a fuck about anything. Where is the contradiction?

It's hardly consistent, which was my point. She's selfish, but isn't totally devoid of compassion, and certainly not self centred and/or idiotic enough to want 17 to get his boat more than undoing the needless waste of life.

Even in Dragon Ball, where people will say and do the dumbest things as and when it suits the narrative, no one is ever this mindmeltingly thick, even when the right thing to do is presented so obviously.

[GreatSaiyaJeff]

It's not out of character, I agree that people are making it a bigger deal then it was. She only joined the tournament because of money, once she found out there was no prize money then she would have left. Bulma pretty much bribed her into staying. I mean she probably would have joined even without bribe probably but it still fits within the character.

[BlueBasilisk]

Right especially when #17 bonded over no one in the ToP. Vegeta already was gonna wish back and Goku definitely would have since he said he wanted to see U6 girls again and Jiren. #17 had no reason to do it hence the surprise by everyone when he did.

I think they were surprised that he wished everyone back too. Vegeta only expressed interest in U6 and Goku U11 beyond that. While I do think either of them would have had they won, it seemed like everyone had pretty much come to terms with most of the Universes being gone because that's allegedly what Zeno wanted. The purple kai from Universe..1, I believe it was, even said it was right to do so to ensure some kind of cosmic balance.

[TheDipDap1234]

I'm with Michsi on this one. I'm sure the writers didn't intend to make her look like a selfish idiot, but more of a caring sister. We did see her react to Universe 2's erasure, ending up liking them eventhough they almost eliminated her, her brother and Goku many times so she definitely cared about the other universes.

What bugs me more is 18 refusing to participate in the tournament unless she gets paid. It was out of character for her to do that. We saw her protecting Marron from Buu and Beerus, cared about Videl, Bulma and the others enough to tell them to follow her when Buu attacked them on Kami's lookout, and wanted to fight Frieza. All this without asking money for it. Now she doesn't want to participate in a tournament where her universe's existence is at stake unless she gets money for it? That's not 18. Asura is right about 18's writing in this arc being all over the place. In the tournament itself she was a lot better. Her fight with Ribrianne showed how much she loves Krillin and Marron, and she had some good team-ups with 17, Krillin and even Goku. As an 18 fan I was satisfied with her performance in this arc, but she had some very bad moments, and I can definitely understand why people would dislike her for them.