Recurring Villains discussion

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sintzu
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Re: Recurring Villains discussion

Post by sintzu » Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:00 am

Toxin45 wrote:Because frieza helps toei and toriyama make money duh.
We're finally on the same page, Freeza is back for one reason and one reason only, to make easy $$$.
Dragono wrote:
Freeza is Goku's arch enemy because he is basically the one to have the biggest effect on his life.

Freeza has come back way more times in classic dragon ball than modern.

Freeza was most certainly the catalyst to something and it has become the most iconic scene in the franchise to many, myself included and thats Goku going super saiyan.

The reason why Freeza returns has nothing to with the writers being afraid but knowing good marketing. Freeza sells.
He has but it still doesn't justify him being pushed like this.

In classic Toei DB, in the original Toriyama simply moved on once he was done which is how things should be.

Again, although this is true it doesn't justify them using him as a stick to fall back on all the time.

This is my problem with it, they're just bringing him back (and other old concepts) to make easy $$$.
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Re: Recurring Villains discussion

Post by Toxin45 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:09 am

sintzu wrote:
Toxin45 wrote:Because frieza helps toei and toriyama make money duh.
We're finally on the same page, Freeza is back for one reason and one reason only, to make easy $$$.
Dragono wrote:
Freeza is Goku's arch enemy because he is basically the one to have the biggest effect on his life.

Freeza has come back way more times in classic dragon ball than modern.

Freeza was most certainly the catalyst to something and it has become the most iconic scene in the franchise to many, myself included and thats Goku going super saiyan.

The reason why Freeza returns has nothing to with the writers being afraid but knowing good marketing. Freeza sells.
He has but it still doesn't justify him being pushed like this.

In classic Toei DB, in the original Toriyama simply moved on once he was done which is how things should be.

Again, although this is true it doesn't justify them using him as a stick to fall back on all the time.

This is my problem with it, they're just bringing him back (and other old concepts) to make easy $$$.
So who cares at this point and the old way doesn't always work out in modern times anymore dude. Make something else different even if it is old concepts.

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Re: Recurring Villains discussion

Post by sintzu » Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:24 am

Toxin45 wrote:The old way doesn't always work out in modern times anymore dude.
Being original if done right will work. Look at BOG, it outright revived the entire DB franchise and is currently at hights it never knew before despite BOG being a new concept.
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Re: Recurring Villains discussion

Post by Asura » Thu Apr 26, 2018 4:01 am

On one hand, RoF is horrible and Freeza returning is a dumb decision. On the other hand, Freeza in the ToP was one of the best characters in the entire show. However, I think that's more to do with the fact that he was forced to team-up with Goku and friends. If they had brought Freeza back as an enemy again, it would have been horrible. I don't really know what he's going to do now, but I hope that he leaves Goku and everyone else alone.

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Re: Recurring Villains discussion

Post by JazzMazz » Thu Apr 26, 2018 4:42 am

I think a recurring cast of antagonists is fine, if handled well. However, I think it should become a rule of thumb, that with the exception of maybe Freeza, none of the villains that were obliterated and killed should be recurring characters. Characters like Hit and Jiren are probably the perfect naturally recurring antagonists in the series, since they're not inherently disposable like someone like say Cell, Buu and Black, but also because them recurring to have major roles makes sense in the context of the story.

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Re: Recurring Villains discussion

Post by Toxin45 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:21 am

Asura wrote:On one hand, RoF is horrible and Freeza returning is a dumb decision. On the other hand, Freeza in the ToP was one of the best characters in the entire show. However, I think that's more to do with the fact that he was forced to team-up with Goku and friends. If they had brought Freeza back as an enemy again, it would have been horrible. I don't really know what he's going to do now, but I hope that he leaves Goku and everyone else alone.
Nah he is still alive and active dude. Besides he and goku stated that they probably will meet again.
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Re: Recurring Villains discussion

Post by Toxin45 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:22 am

sintzu wrote:
Toxin45 wrote:The old way doesn't always work out in modern times anymore dude.
Being original if done right will work. Look at BOG, it outright revived the entire DB franchise and is currently at hights it never knew before despite BOG being a new concept.
Then in super that concept got oversaturated

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Re: Recurring Villains discussion

Post by Toxin45 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:28 am

JazzMazz wrote:I think a recurring cast of antagonists is fine, if handled well. However, I think it should become a rule of thumb, that with the exception of maybe Freeza, none of the villains that were obliterated and killed should be recurring characters. Characters like Hit and Jiren are probably the perfect naturally recurring antagonists in the series, since they're not inherently disposable like someone like say Cell, Buu and Black, but also because them recurring to have major roles makes sense in the context of the story.
Hit and Jiren are antagonists anymore though.

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Re: Recurring Villains discussion

Post by JazzMazz » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:37 am

Toxin45 wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:I think a recurring cast of antagonists is fine, if handled well. However, I think it should become a rule of thumb, that with the exception of maybe Freeza, none of the villains that were obliterated and killed should be recurring characters. Characters like Hit and Jiren are probably the perfect naturally recurring antagonists in the series, since they're not inherently disposable like someone like say Cell, Buu and Black, but also because them recurring to have major roles makes sense in the context of the story.
Hit and Jiren are antagonists anymore though.
Well they kind of are.

They aren't exactly world ending menaces, but they are still, at the very least, rival characters that can come up to fight Goku(or in Hits case, assassinate him).

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Re: Recurring Villains discussion

Post by Toxin45 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:41 am

JazzMazz wrote:
Toxin45 wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:I think a recurring cast of antagonists is fine, if handled well. However, I think it should become a rule of thumb, that with the exception of maybe Freeza, none of the villains that were obliterated and killed should be recurring characters. Characters like Hit and Jiren are probably the perfect naturally recurring antagonists in the series, since they're not inherently disposable like someone like say Cell, Buu and Black, but also because them recurring to have major roles makes sense in the context of the story.
Hit and Jiren are antagonists anymore though.
Well they kind of are.

They aren't exactly world ending menaces, but they are still, at the very least, rival characters that can come up to fight Goku(or in Hits case, assassinate him).
Unless new threats show up that surpasses them in their universe.

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Re: Recurring Villains discussion

Post by JazzMazz » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:47 am

Toxin45 wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
Toxin45 wrote: Hit and Jiren are antagonists anymore though.
Well they kind of are.

They aren't exactly world ending menaces, but they are still, at the very least, rival characters that can come up to fight Goku(or in Hits case, assassinate him).
Unless new threats show up that surpasses them in their universe.
I don't see Jiren and Hit being surpassed in their own universes(with maybe the exception of Kefla), but I think its highly possible, that IF they do continue the series, there will be characters from other universes who are as strong or stronger than they are.

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Re: Recurring Villains discussion

Post by Toxin45 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:48 am

JazzMazz wrote:
Toxin45 wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:Well they kind of are.

They aren't exactly world ending menaces, but they are still, at the very least, rival characters that can come up to fight Goku(or in Hits case, assassinate him).
Unless new threats show up that surpasses them in their universe.
I don't see Jiren and Hit being surpassed in their own universes(with maybe the exception of Kefla), but I think its highly possible, that IF they do continue the series, there will be characters from other universes who are as strong or stronger than they are.
Unless new villains show up like the one from Jiren's past.

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Re: Recurring Villains discussion

Post by JazzMazz » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:52 am

Toxin45 wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
Toxin45 wrote: Unless new threats show up that surpasses them in their universe.
I don't see Jiren and Hit being surpassed in their own universes(with maybe the exception of Kefla), but I think its highly possible, that IF they do continue the series, there will be characters from other universes who are as strong or stronger than they are.
Unless new villains show up like the one from Jiren's past.
I think people put way too much stock in that. If he was stronger than current Jiren, then I'm pretty sure he would be the lead in the tournament of power.

They might do something with that, but I very much doubt it.

Also, didn't I say that POTENTIALLY, villains from other universes, namely the POSSIBLE 13th to 18th universe, could have greater warriors than Jiren.

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Re: Recurring Villains discussion

Post by Toxin45 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:54 am

JazzMazz wrote:
Toxin45 wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: I don't see Jiren and Hit being surpassed in their own universes(with maybe the exception of Kefla), but I think its highly possible, that IF they do continue the series, there will be characters from other universes who are as strong or stronger than they are.
Unless new villains show up like the one from Jiren's past.
I think people put way too much stock in that. If he was stronger than current Jiren, then I'm pretty sure he would be the lead in the tournament of power.

They might do something with that, but I very much doubt it.

Also, didn't I say that POTENTIALLY, villains from other universes, namely the POSSIBLE 13th to 18th universe, could have greater warriors than Jiren.
Well the new villain from the super movie is fronted than Jiren.

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Re: Recurring Villains discussion

Post by JazzMazz » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:03 am

Toxin45 wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
Toxin45 wrote: Unless new villains show up like the one from Jiren's past.
I think people put way too much stock in that. If he was stronger than current Jiren, then I'm pretty sure he would be the lead in the tournament of power.

They might do something with that, but I very much doubt it.

Also, didn't I say that POTENTIALLY, villains from other universes, namely the POSSIBLE 13th to 18th universe, could have greater warriors than Jiren.
Well the new villain from the super movie is fronted than Jiren.
Have they though? Have they really fronted this guy as being bigger than Jiren?

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Re: Recurring Villains discussion

Post by Toxin45 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:04 am

JazzMazz wrote:
Toxin45 wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: I think people put way too much stock in that. If he was stronger than current Jiren, then I'm pretty sure he would be the lead in the tournament of power.

They might do something with that, but I very much doubt it.

Also, didn't I say that POTENTIALLY, villains from other universes, namely the POSSIBLE 13th to 18th universe, could have greater warriors than Jiren.
Well the new villain from the super movie is fronted than Jiren.
Have they though? Have they really fronted this guy as being bigger than Jiren?
You know new antagonists surpasses the old ones.

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Re: Recurring Villains discussion

Post by JazzMazz » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:15 am

Toxin45 wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
Toxin45 wrote: Well the new villain from the super movie is fronted than Jiren.
Have they though? Have they really fronted this guy as being bigger than Jiren?
You know new antagonists surpasses the old ones.
Yeah, but the movie hasn't even been released yet, so I don't think we can really make any true judgments yet.

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Re: Recurring Villains discussion

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:59 am

Toxin45 wrote:So who cares at this point and the old way doesn't always work out in modern times anymore dude. Make something else different even if it is old concepts.
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Re: Recurring Villains discussion

Post by Logania » Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:59 pm

Freeza comes back 3 times and Buu gets reincarnated. Yet my boy Cell gets no love, Toriyama don't like perfection.

If Cell came back and trained he'd be unstoppable, so it's understandable, but I won't rest until I see Cell Dorado.
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Re: Recurring Villains discussion

Post by Zen Yabuki » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:24 pm

JazzMazz wrote:
Toxin45 wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:I think a recurring cast of antagonists is fine, if handled well. However, I think it should become a rule of thumb, that with the exception of maybe Freeza, none of the villains that were obliterated and killed should be recurring characters. Characters like Hit and Jiren are probably the perfect naturally recurring antagonists in the series, since they're not inherently disposable like someone like say Cell, Buu and Black, but also because them recurring to have major roles makes sense in the context of the story.
Hit and Jiren are antagonists anymore though.
Well they kind of are.

They aren't exactly world ending menaces, but they are still, at the very least, rival characters that can come up to fight Goku(or in Hits case, assassinate him).
This. Goku is the protagonist and they have been presented as his opposition so far, making them antagonists.

As far as Cell goes, thank the heavens he isn't coming back. He was boring as hell.

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