Recurring Villains discussion

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Recurring Villains discussion

Post by Toxin45 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:34 pm

You know this topic is quite interesting that back in the day Dragon Ball had never had a returning villain before most of them were only for sagas and few that do they simply used for filler or gt to be jobbers and never play a major role in any arcs beyond used for laughs. The closeting ot a recurring villain was vegeta back in the namek saga and even then it took a while for him to turn fully good. The ones who started as bad guys turn good or become supporting characters to goku and the gang. But then we have frieza had recently made some returning appearances being revived twice and play a major role in recent arcs like Resurrection F and it's retelling after being killed by trunks in the androinds arc. Then he returns again in in the tournament of power forced to ally himself towards The z-fighters and by the end of the arc Frieza was fully ressurected and goes to revive his empire.
What are your thoughts about this?

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Re: Recurring Villains discussion

Post by Vegeta_Sama » Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:14 pm

I don't know how many times he can keep coming back. I think that we are gonna start seeing him more and more as an uneasy ally more than anything, because at this point he knows that he can't fuck with Goku and friends again, or he'll be dead for good. It would be really stupid for him to come back with another revenge plot, and if he does, he could either get killed (more realistic outcome) and it would be balls since we already saw that 2 times (3 counting the retelling of RoF), or he could survive, but I think that would make both him and the Z warriors look unimpressive, and that would result in a lame arc.
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Re: Recurring Villains discussion

Post by Exline » Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:21 pm

I don't like the idea of villains returning. The DB Cast is big enough. Bringing them back sometimes ruins their character (Ex. Ress F) and once again delays the process of moving forward, meeting new characters, etc.

I'd rather they stay dead or appear in Specials to delve more into their history (Ex. Bardock Special). We don't need to see them constantly return in the main continuity. It always feels like nostalgia and fan-pandering when bringing back old characters that have already been long forgotten.

I use to want old characters to be relevant again, but not anymore. I love Dragon Ball because it always focuses on the new and rarely ever the old. It's supposed to keep moving forward, not backwards.

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Re: Recurring Villains discussion

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:26 pm

Naturally, you can claim that writing a new and 'fresh' villain is always better than just overusing defeated villains. But that isn't always the case, Frieza should be an example of this. He has returned thrice, yet I have seen several fans praise him for the unique role he played in the Tournament of Power arc, since he was a wild card, a mysterious figure, and his schemes and plots made the arc more intriguing and entertaining. And the presence of Frieza added a lot of tension to the arc. What if Frieza had gotten the wish instead of Android 17? His plan was to dominate the Gods, so imagine if he would have had his way. The entire Multiverse would have been doomed, as we know that Zeno would have erased everything because a selfish way had been made in the end. Obviously, many fans were also on the edge of their seat because they didn't know what to expect from Frieza anymore. Sure he was willing to work with Goku and co., but he was still Frieza, therefore several thought that he would betray Goku and swoop in for the kill on Jiren. In addition, it was quite fascinating to watch Frieza cope with the circumstances, having to fight alongside the species he despised the most for his own survival. His character development was superb. The point that I must emphasize is: if they are able to write compelling stories for a returning villain, then bringing back old villains is not such an absurdly grave problem that ruins the storyline beyond repair.

Personally, I would love if Zamasu, my absolute favourite character, returned in a future arc/movie to exact his revenge on the mortals who so foolishly and boldly defied him through time and space. People will not complain that Zamasu was reused by the writers as a villain, if the character receives a beautifully-written story arc and amazing character development, as the positive aspects will clearly outweigh the negative ones. In addition, bringing back an old villain does not exclude the possibility of introducing a new villain. Imagine if the old villain made an alliance with the new villain -- using the example of Zamasu, imagine if Zamasu made an alliance with the Dark Demon Realm. Yes, an old villain would be reused, but there would also be a new and intriguing villain to battle.
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Re: Recurring Villains discussion

Post by sintzu » Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:47 pm

I don't like the idea at all and think that Freeza should've been left dead after Trunks killed him. Freeza was never anything more than a villain of an arc in a long line of villians, there's no reason for him to be treated as anything more. The DB lore has limitless possibilites so there's no need to keep revisiting old concepts that have been done to death and don't live up to what they originally did with them.
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Re: Recurring Villains discussion

Post by Toxin45 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:52 pm

Vegeta_Sama wrote:I don't know how many times he can keep coming back. I think that we are gonna start seeing him more and more as an uneasy ally more than anything, because at this point he knows that he can't fuck with Goku and friends again, or he'll be dead for good. It would be really stupid for him to come back with another revenge plot, and if he does, he could either get killed (more realistic outcome) and it would be balls since we already saw that 2 times (3 counting the retelling of RoF), or he could survive, but I think that would make both him and the Z warriors look unimpressive, and that would result in a lame arc.
Well Frieza can train now to get stronger in later years

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Re: Recurring Villains discussion

Post by Toxin45 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:53 pm

sintzu wrote:I don't like the idea at all and think that Freeza should've been left dead after Trunks killed him. Freeza was never anything more than a villain of an arc in a long line of villians, there's no reason for him to be treated as anything more. The DB lore has limitless possibilites so there's no need to keep revisiting old concepts that have been done to death and don't live up to what they originally did with them.
But toriyama wants Frieza to stay now and things change.

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Re: Recurring Villains discussion

Post by Toxin45 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:54 pm

Exline wrote:I don't like the idea of villains returning. The DB Cast is big enough. Bringing them back sometimes ruins their character (Ex. Ress F) and once again delays the process of moving forward, meeting new characters, etc.

I'd rather they stay dead or appear in Specials to delve more into their history (Ex. Bardock Special). We don't need to see them constantly return in the main continuity. It always feels like nostalgia and fan-pandering when bringing back old characters that have already been long forgotten.

I use to want old characters to be relevant again, but not anymore. I love Dragon Ball because it always focuses on the new and rarely ever the old. It's supposed to keep moving forward, not backwards.
Nah tournament of power made Frieza more popular for some that didn't like resurrection f so whetever you like it or not Frieza is here too stay. Besides new villains sometimes done live up to the hype or just being generic.

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Re: Recurring Villains discussion

Post by sintzu » Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:04 pm

Toxin45 wrote:But toriyama wants Frieza to stay now and things change.
There's a lot of things Toriyama does and wants that I don't agree with. Just because Toriyama thinks something doesn't mean I'm going to blindly follow him.
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Re: Recurring Villains discussion

Post by Toxin45 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:08 pm

sintzu wrote:
Toxin45 wrote:But toriyama wants Frieza to stay now and things change.
There's a lot of things Toriyama does and wants that I don't agree with. Just because Toriyama thinks something doesn't mean I'm going to blindly follow him.
Well Frieza had become the most recurring villain in the seires for better or worse and is the archenemy of goku nowadays and he can get stronger through training just like goku and the others Frieza pretty much became the breakout villain of the series since he was he catalyst of the franchise and being too damn popular.

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Re: Recurring Villains discussion

Post by sintzu » Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:25 pm

Toxin45 wrote:Frieza is the archenemy of goku nowadays.

Frieza pretty much became the breakout villain of the series since he was he catalyst of the franchise.
Goku never had an archenemy as he was always fighting enemies. When he finished with one he moved on to the other. This whole "archenemy and rivalry" thing they're doing now is new and quite frankly getting pretty old.

Freeza wasn't a catalyst for anything. There were over 10 important villains before him and 10 after him so he wasn't special. He is now thanks to the direction they decided to take after BOG but before RF he was just another villain who came and went and I wish things stayed that way.

The reaosn Freeza has become a constant thing now is because the people behind the franchise are too afraid to move out of their Saiyan/Freeza safe space.
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Re: Recurring Villains discussion

Post by Toxin45 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:11 pm

sintzu wrote:
Toxin45 wrote:Frieza is the archenemy of goku nowadays.

Frieza pretty much became the breakout villain of the series since he was he catalyst of the franchise.
Goku never had an archenemy as he was always fighting enemies. When he finished with one he moved on to the other. This whole "archenemy and rivalry" thing they're doing now is new and quite frankly getting pretty old.

Freeza wasn't a catalyst for anything. There were over 10 important villains before him and 10 after him so he wasn't special. He is now thanks to the direction they decided to take after BOG but before RF he was just another villain who came and went and I wish things stayed that way.

The reaosn Freeza has become a constant thing now is because the people behind the franchise are too afraid to move out of their Saiyan/Freeza safe space.
Nah it's just you and also the archenemy thing isn't getting old and also goku woundn't have come to earth also cell wouldn't exist and also Frieza will come back now in the next movie and series. Also what concepts like how sometimes new villains don't live up to your expectations Frieza came back in ressurection f and tournament of power so your way isn't happening.

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Re: Recurring Villains discussion

Post by sintzu » Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:31 pm

Toxin45 wrote:Your way isn't happening.
My way requires time, effort and creativity so of course it won't happen, Why do that when they have the Saiyan/Freeza safe space to fall back on.
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Re: Recurring Villains discussion

Post by ulisa » Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:21 pm

My whole concern has always been if a character is written well and has a purpose for returning. When that’s done, you can have a great storyline but written well and having purpose mean different things to different people.

I personally think there was too big a gap between Freeza being killed by Trunks and returning. Vegeta was kept in the action and Cell returned almost immediately. If the series had dropped hints at his return, that would have been a better build up but as is, it comes out of nowhere because, well, it did come out of nowhere.

Lastly and this is strictly personal opinion—Freeza has never impressed me. I enjoyed the character well enough in the Freeza arc, the Japanese and Kai voicing has always been top notch but I just find Freeza the most boring of the villains. He’s a charismatic murderous sociopath and yet he bores me. I honestly don’t know why. So I, personally, don’t enjoy his return but I’m glad some people do.
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Re: Recurring Villains discussion

Post by Rakurai » Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:45 pm

I stand by the opinion that reintroducing Freeza back in the RoF film was a terrible idea in general. Making him SSB-level in four months completely undermined the original premise of him being afraid of Saiyans growing stronger in battle which could lead to him being overthrown. Not to mention Golden Freeza is ugly af, he looks like a damn Oscar.

Plus, the idea that Freeza's personal hell is like something out of Dr. Slump... I get that this is Toriyama's thing now but we could've done without that just fine.
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Re: Recurring Villains discussion

Post by Bullza » Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:47 pm

Frieza was too goodnight a character for them not to bring him back.

Cell and Kid Buu and the older ones like Nappa and Raditz, they can stay gone but Frieza was probably the best character in the Tournament of Power.

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Re: Recurring Villains discussion

Post by Toxin45 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:23 pm

ulisa wrote:My whole concern has always been if a character is written well and has a purpose for returning. When that’s done, you can have a great storyline but written well and having purpose mean different things to different people.

I personally think there was too big a gap between Freeza being killed by Trunks and returning. Vegeta was kept in the action and Cell returned almost immediately. If the series had dropped hints at his return, that would have been a better build up but as is, it comes out of nowhere because, well, it did come out of nowhere.

Lastly and this is strictly personal opinion—Freeza has never impressed me. I enjoyed the character well enough in the Freeza arc, the Japanese and Kai voicing has always been top notch but I just find Freeza the most boring of the villains. He’s a charismatic murderous sociopath and yet he bores me. I honestly don’t know why. So I, personally, don’t enjoy his return but I’m glad some people do.
Nah you just don't get it he returns twice and got more popular and most profitable villain.

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Re: Recurring Villains discussion

Post by Toxin45 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:25 pm

Rakurai wrote:I stand by the opinion that reintroducing Freeza back in the RoF film was a terrible idea in general. Making him SSB-level in four months completely undermined the original premise of him being afraid of Saiyans growing stronger in battle which could lead to him being overthrown. Not to mention Golden Freeza is ugly af, he looks like a damn Oscar.

Plus, the idea that Freeza's personal hell is like something out of Dr. Slump... I get that this is Toriyama's thing now but we could've done without that just fine.
Then he shows up again in the tournament of power and teams up with goku to take down Jiren. Then comes back alive again to rebuild his empire.

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Re: Recurring Villains discussion

Post by Toxin45 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:44 pm

sintzu wrote:
Toxin45 wrote:Your way isn't happening.
My way requires time, effort and creativity so of course it won't happen, Why do that when they have the Saiyan/Freeza safe space to fall back on.
Because frieza helps toei and toriyama make money duh.

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Re: Recurring Villains discussion

Post by Dragono » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:16 pm

sintzu wrote:
Toxin45 wrote:Frieza is the archenemy of goku nowadays.

Frieza pretty much became the breakout villain of the series since he was he catalyst of the franchise.
Goku never had an archenemy as he was always fighting enemies. When he finished with one he moved on to the other. This whole "archenemy and rivalry" thing sthey're doing now is new and quite frankly getting pretty old.

Freeza wasn't a catalyst for anything. There were over 10 important villains before him and 10 after him so he wasn't special. He is now thanks to the direction they decided to take after BOG but before RF he was just another villain who came and went and I wish things stayed that way.

The reaosn Freeza has become a constant thing now is because the people behind the franchise are too afraid to move out of their Saiyan/Freeza safe space.
I mean, like everything you just said here was a lie.

1. Freeza is Goku's arch enemy because he is basically the one to have the biggest effect on his life, he killed his race and while Goku never cared about them, he did fight to avenge them for Vegeta. The Joker is Batman's archenemy not because he keeps coming back but because no villain has that level of effect on him. Naruto is Obito since he was responsible for the crap he went through and the same is with Aizen and Ichigo. These villains were only mains in one arc but thats all they needed.

2.Freeza has come back way more times in classic dragon ball than modern. He came back in the cell saga, toei added him as filler twice in the buu saga, he was in the super 17 arc and he was in fusin reborn. In modern dragon ball, its only been twice. You can sit there and say he was only main in those 2 but the point remain he did return.

3.Freeza was most certainly the catalyst to something and it has become the most iconic scene in the franchise to many, myself included and thats Goku going super saiyan.

4. The reason why Freeza returns has nothing to with the writers being afraid but knowing good marketing. His move is the most successful in the franchise. The quality is urely lacking but numbers don't lie. Freeza sells. Its obvious not getting old because if it was, then it wouldn't make money.

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