Vegeta's incompetent

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TBMx
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Vegeta's incompetent

Post by TBMx » Fri May 04, 2018 6:46 am

It was obvious Vegeta stood no chance against Jiren after he could no longer go Super Saiyan.

Yet he said "This form is more than enough for you!" And charged him anyway.

What's he basing that on? Because even a child could see that's not the case. Vegeta's supposed to be a genius isn't he? A combat genius thinks - even under pressure.

Here's something a "genius" should know:

At any point while Jiren was just standing there waiting for Vegeta to recover over and over, he could have easily blasted an immobile Goku off the stage.

So it makes a lot more sense to give Goku the energy first, and then attack.
1)Goku receives more energy.
2) Isn't a sitting duck if Jiren decides to blast him.
3) Could potentially defend Vegeta or teleport them out of that corner. Give how ridiculously fast these two recover, and how little was left of the clock, it makes sense to do that.

Vegeta was right. He is a fool. He should be crying. Cos he blew it by employing no strategy whatsoever.

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Re: Vegeta's incompetent

Post by JazzMazz » Fri May 04, 2018 7:15 am

TBMx wrote:It was obvious Vegeta stood no chance against Jiren after he could no longer go Super Saiyan.

Yet he said "This form is more than enough for you!" And charged him anyway.

What's he basing that on? Because even a child could see that's not the case. Vegeta's supposed to be a genius isn't he? A combat genius thinks - even under pressure.

Here's something a "genius" should know:

At any point while Jiren was just standing there waiting for Vegeta to recover over and over, he could have easily blasted an immobile Goku off the stage.

So it makes a lot more sense to give Goku the energy first, and then attack.
1)Goku receives more energy.
2) Isn't a sitting duck if Jiren decides to blast him.
3) Could potentially defend Vegeta or teleport them out of that corner. Give how ridiculously fast these two recover, and how little was left of the clock, it makes sense to do that.

Vegeta was right. He is a fool. He should be crying. Cos he blew it by employing no strategy whatsoever.
Is this a satirical post?

Because it almost sounds like it.

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Re: Vegeta's incompetent

Post by TBMx » Fri May 04, 2018 7:25 am

What about it is satirical, or in any way untrue?

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Re: Vegeta's incompetent

Post by Saturnine » Fri May 04, 2018 7:44 am

TBMx wrote:What about it is satirical, or in any way untrue?
I think you're entirely missing the point of Vegeta's "last stand".

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Re: Vegeta's incompetent

Post by ToshioWrites » Fri May 04, 2018 9:41 am

Fictional characters do what the writers make them do

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Re: Vegeta's incompetent

Post by sintzu » Fri May 04, 2018 12:42 pm

Vegeta's pride wouldn't allow him to simply give Goku his power and walk off the ring without putting up a fight, even if he knew there was nothing he could do.
Saturnine wrote:
TBMx wrote:What about it is satirical, or in any way untrue?
I think you're entirely missing the point of Vegeta's "last stand".
That's putting it nicely.
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Re: Vegeta's incompetent

Post by Logania » Fri May 04, 2018 3:39 pm

I don't know why it's surprising for him to charge at the enemy head on with "Muh Saiyan Pride." Battle strategy isn't Vegeta's strong suit he's never depicted as a battle genius. He's charged in head on at the enemy in every single fight he's in.
"I can't increase my ability through some kind of noisy transformation the way Frost and you Saiyans do. If I wanna become more lethal, I don't have the luxury of cutting corners, I just have to do it the old-fashioned way.

Combat is craft. What matters most is not raw power, but the skill by which you hone it."

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Re: Vegeta's incompetent

Post by Zen Yabuki » Fri May 04, 2018 5:05 pm

Logania wrote:I don't know why it's surprising for him to charge at the enemy head on with "Muh Saiyan Pride." Battle strategy isn't Vegeta's strong suit he's never depicted as a battle genius. He's charged in head on at the enemy in every single fight he's in.
I think in a way that's sort of the problem. The series tells us Vegeta is this "battle genius and master tactician" but in Z, and in both manga and anime versions of Super so far, he's rarely ever portrayed as a genius combatant, contradictory to what it wants us to believe.

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Re: Vegeta's incompetent

Post by sintzu » Fri May 04, 2018 10:04 pm

Zen Yabuki wrote:The series tells us Vegeta is this "battle genius and master tactician" but in Z, and in both manga and anime versions of Super so far, he's rarely ever portrayed as a genius combatant, contradictory to what it wants us to believe.
In the Buu arc he was smart enough to fall under Babidi's control but only to the point of getting the power he wanted which shocked Babidi. The spirit bomb that killed Buu was his idea. He was outright called a genius by Piccolo for the way he handled androids 19&20 and he was the first one to break through the Ssj limits. He was one step ahead of Freeza and his men on Namek and in the Saiyan arc he managed to overcome everything the heroes threw at him.

In BOG he didn't attack Beerus until it was the last choice he had. In RF he didn't rush to fight Freeza but instead took his time and waited for him to drain himself before stepping in. In Champa's tournament he was complemented by Hit and put up a really good fight against Maggeta without having to use Blue. He surprised Black in both the anime and manga after powering up enough to beat him in the anime and finding away to overcome Blue's limitations in the manga. In the TOP he was the 3rd strongest character and in the top 5 final fighters.

I'm not saying he was smart all the time but I'm pretty sure when someone says "Vegeta isn't a genius" they're talking about that one moment against Cell when he let him transform which is one stupid moment in a long list of smart ones like what I mentioned above. Everyone including Goku has stupid moments in DB.
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Re: Vegeta's incompetent

Post by Logania » Fri May 04, 2018 10:31 pm

I dont think he's an absolute idiot, he's very cunning like on...well all of Namek and tricking Babidi. I mainly refer to his actual skills and how he handles combat.

I always see him as a fierce warrior who uses brute strength and it works quite well for him, as noted by Whis in the ToP. I don't ever really recall a time in a fight where he outsmarts his opponent who is stronger than him or to expose a weakness like Goku does (like when he realizes Freeza can't sense Ki, he does the strategy of sending the Ki attacks at him while he goes around him for a sneak attack, or his methods of facing Jiren with the Ki remote bombs and Destructo Hexa-Blade)

Usually he just charges in and gives it his all, or results in trying to end the fight with all of his power in one attack (like the Final Flash against Cell and his last attack against Freeza on Namek)
"I can't increase my ability through some kind of noisy transformation the way Frost and you Saiyans do. If I wanna become more lethal, I don't have the luxury of cutting corners, I just have to do it the old-fashioned way.

Combat is craft. What matters most is not raw power, but the skill by which you hone it."

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Re: Vegeta's incompetent

Post by Zen Yabuki » Fri May 04, 2018 11:08 pm

sintzu wrote:
Zen Yabuki wrote:The series tells us Vegeta is this "battle genius and master tactician" but in Z, and in both manga and anime versions of Super so far, he's rarely ever portrayed as a genius combatant, contradictory to what it wants us to believe.
In the Buu arc he was smart enough to fall under Babidi's control but only to the point of getting the power he wanted which shocked Babidi. The spirit bomb that killed Buu was his idea. He was outright called a genius by Piccolo for the way he handled androids 19&20 and he was the first one to break through the Ssj limits. He was one step ahead of Freeza and his men on Namek and in the Saiyan arc he managed to overcome everything the heroes threw at him.

In BOG he didn't attack Beerus until it was the last choice he had. In RF he didn't rush to fight Freeza but instead took his time and waited for him to drain himself before stepping in. In Champa's tournament he was complemented by Hit and put up a really good fight against Maggeta without having to use Blue. He surprised Black in both the anime and manga after powering up enough to beat him in the anime and finding away to overcome Blue's limitations in the manga. In the TOP he was the 3rd strongest character and in the top 5 final fighters.

I'm not saying he was smart all the time but I'm pretty sure when someone says "Vegeta isn't a genius" they're talking about that one moment against Cell when he let him transform which is one stupid moment in a long list of smart ones like what I mentioned above. Everyone including Goku has stupid moments in DB.
No. He isn't dumb, but he isn't really portrayed as a genius as often as he probably should. The Genki Dama to kill Boo wasn't really a good plan either. The ToP example isn't really anything at all either. That's not proving fighting genius. Good job conserving your strength when fighting Magetta for sure, but that's not really genius. Just common sense. When it's a tournament where you keep fighting until you've been KO'd or eliminated, you should be conserving your energy. Hit complimenting Vegeta doesn't really mean much either as I don't remember Vegeta doing anything too smart prior to that (though it was good that he tried to catch Hit's hands as he thought Hit couldn't hit too hard which given the info he had on Hit up to that point was a decent tactic).

Piccolo calling him a genius somewhat works but doesn't as well. Sure, it was definitely good that he bluffed Dr. Gero. But he didn't need to let 19 absorb his energy as he knew 19 could absorb energy and a chapter later he throws a ki blast which Dr. Gero absorbs. This is sort of my point. We're told he's a genius, but having him do something fairly smart only to ruin that a chapter later doesn't help Vegeta's case.

The best example you gave was the Goku Black one which was probably the smartest thing he's done in a fight. But my point isn't that Vegeta isn't smart, cause he is a good fighter and has done some real smart things. But were more so told about it, than actually shown it. Most of your examples isn't really Vegeta being genius. Him improving on the SSG-SSB thing Goku did on Hit and showcasing it against Black was genius. But his Genki Dama plan wasn't genius by any means as that had a good chance of failing and nearly did.

I agree with the above post. He can be quite cunning, but in actual fights he more often than not is just a brute.

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Re: Vegeta's incompetent

Post by Simere » Sat May 05, 2018 1:04 am

sintzu wrote:I'm not saying he was smart all the time but I'm pretty sure when someone says "Vegeta isn't a genius" they're talking about that one moment against Cell when he let him transform which is one stupid moment in a long list of smart ones like what I mentioned above. Everyone including Goku has stupid moments in DB.
When people question his genius it's in comparison to the other so called genius fighters of the series. You know that many Vegeta fans like to fall back on idea that Vegeta is a smarter fighter than Goku to make excuses for him coming up short in other areas; fight IQ is also something Piccolo fans want to lay claim to. Tien and Krillin fans too, to a lesser degree. All for the same reason: "if only <character> had the <pejorative reference to power> that Goku gets, then he'd be nothing". And then they say something about shine.

That's why TBMx is bothered. When he sees Vegeta acting like this visible cracks in the delusion start to appear. Or, more generously, he wants to see them utilize this supposed aspect of Vegeta's character in a better way, so that even if he goes out he effectively demonstrated what makes him uniquely a great fighter. Same thing Hit fans wanted. And Piccolo. And Tien...and Krillin...Vegeta's not actually unique in this regard, so it didn't happen.

What he's unique for is making brash and arrogant declarations he can't actually back up, and so that's what we got in his final moments. :thumbup:

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Re: Vegeta's incompetent

Post by Asura » Sat May 05, 2018 1:35 am

Uh... I think you missed the entire point of the scene, or maybe even the episode. It was really obvious from the get-go that Vegeta knew he was screwed after he couldn't even transform. Him saying "This form is more than enough for you" is just him keeping his bravado and pride. Expecting Vegeta to give Goku energy before he attacks Jiren is pretty stupid, I mean... it's Vegeta. No more even needs to be said. The only thing I dislike is that Vegeta's energy that he gave Goku was almost completely useless. It lets Goku power up to Blue for 2 seconds before getting destroyed again.

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Re: Vegeta's incompetent

Post by Simere » Sat May 05, 2018 1:53 am

Asura wrote:The only thing I dislike is that Vegeta's energy that he gave Goku was almost completely useless. It lets Goku power up to Blue for 2 seconds before getting destroyed again.
You wanted more? I thought it was bad enough Goku was able to do as much as he did with it. I was glad he had it all beaten out of him so quickly, so he could go UI without any of that taint in him.

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Re: Vegeta's incompetent

Post by Asura » Sat May 05, 2018 4:45 am

Simere wrote:
Asura wrote:The only thing I dislike is that Vegeta's energy that he gave Goku was almost completely useless. It lets Goku power up to Blue for 2 seconds before getting destroyed again.
You wanted more? I thought it was bad enough Goku was able to do as much as he did with it. I was glad he had it all beaten out of him so quickly, so he could go UI without any of that taint in him.
I just wanted it to actually mean something. It's Vegeta admitting defeat and putting all his faith in Goku, he's even crying as he gives the energy to him, and then 5 seconds later Goku uses that energy to do absolutely nothing except get destroyed again.

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Re: Vegeta's incompetent

Post by JazzMazz » Sat May 05, 2018 8:16 am

Asura wrote:
Simere wrote:
Asura wrote:The only thing I dislike is that Vegeta's energy that he gave Goku was almost completely useless. It lets Goku power up to Blue for 2 seconds before getting destroyed again.
You wanted more? I thought it was bad enough Goku was able to do as much as he did with it. I was glad he had it all beaten out of him so quickly, so he could go UI without any of that taint in him.
I just wanted it to actually mean something. It's Vegeta admitting defeat and putting all his faith in Goku, he's even crying as he gives the energy to him, and then 5 seconds later Goku uses that energy to do absolutely nothing except get destroyed again.
I agree with Asura on this, I think Goku should have at least accomplished something with Vegeta's energy. Maybe not much, maybe he just lands a really solid punch on Jiren, but at least something.

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Re: Vegeta's incompetent

Post by Amir » Sat May 05, 2018 10:15 am

JazzMazz wrote:
Asura wrote:
Simere wrote: You wanted more? I thought it was bad enough Goku was able to do as much as he did with it. I was glad he had it all beaten out of him so quickly, so he could go UI without any of that taint in him.
I just wanted it to actually mean something. It's Vegeta admitting defeat and putting all his faith in Goku, he's even crying as he gives the energy to him, and then 5 seconds later Goku uses that energy to do absolutely nothing except get destroyed again.
I agree with Asura on this, I think Goku should have at least accomplished something with Vegeta's energy. Maybe not much, maybe he just lands a really solid punch on Jiren, but at least something.
But that wouldn't make any sense.

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Re: Vegeta's incompetent

Post by JazzMazz » Sat May 05, 2018 10:18 am

Amir wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
Asura wrote: I just wanted it to actually mean something. It's Vegeta admitting defeat and putting all his faith in Goku, he's even crying as he gives the energy to him, and then 5 seconds later Goku uses that energy to do absolutely nothing except get destroyed again.
I agree with Asura on this, I think Goku should have at least accomplished something with Vegeta's energy. Maybe not much, maybe he just lands a really solid punch on Jiren, but at least something.
But that wouldn't make any sense.
Yeah, but it would have actually made that entire endeavour have some sort of point to it, and I think that's far more important when telling a story. Besides, I'm not suggesting anything drastic, just the connection of single solid punch.

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Re: Vegeta's incompetent

Post by Simere » Sat May 05, 2018 1:04 pm

JazzMazz wrote:
Amir wrote:But that wouldn't make any sense.
Yeah, but it would have actually made that entire endeavour have some sort of point to it, and I think that's far more important when telling a story. Besides, I'm not suggesting anything drastic, just the connection of single solid punch.
There was a point and importance to maintaining the wall that was Jiren, in maintaining UI as the only thing that could truly touch him, and in demonstrating how Vegeta responds in that situation.

Plus, just maintaining sense is of tremendous value. Even one solid punch because of Vegeta's pittance of energy I wouldn't view to be anything other than pure, and hollow, fan service. Hell, it already was. If you were trying to fix a perceived pointlessness of it, I say the better thing would be to not have him do it, rather than allowing it to produce outsized returns. Besides, if said pittance did produce any tangible results then that'd just make Vegeta's decision to get further thrashed by Jiren even more...lacking in consideration.

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Re: Vegeta's incompetent

Post by EGonzo » Sat May 05, 2018 2:19 pm

Asura wrote: I just wanted it to actually mean something. It's Vegeta admitting defeat and putting all his faith in Goku, he's even crying as he gives the energy to him, and then 5 seconds later Goku uses that energy to do absolutely nothing except get destroyed again.
I think what accomplished is that it made Goku finally register his friends' feelings. Before that Goku was like "boy this Jiren guy is strong, I wanna beat him
cause it's fun", but after that he finally starts fighting for everyone's sake; he goes "I hear you loud and clear", then gets UI back due to thinking of his friends, unlike the first time against Jiren or Klefa. That's the way I see it at least.

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