Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Post by RedHeat » Thu May 17, 2018 8:58 pm

Yeah, it made me realize how even more trash it is in comparison. Literally the only "good" thing from it is the transformation sequence when Goku turns into a golden ape, not even SSJ4 as a form anymore for me.
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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Post by Gyt Kaliba » Thu May 17, 2018 9:17 pm

If I had to pick one overall preferred sequel series, it'd definitely be Super, but by and large I wouldn't really say it's changed my opinion on GT, no. I'd say they're both much the same sort of series - a follow-up to Dragon Ball that has a lot of really great and fun ideas, but not always the best execution of said ideas. If I'm thinking of any particular 'canon' or anything, I'll usually opt for Super rather than GT, but it's easy enough to still make GT fit actually after the end of Z whereas Super takes place before it, if you try...and fudge it a little bit, admittedly, but it's doable.
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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Post by EGonzo » Thu May 17, 2018 9:30 pm

It hasn't really changed my mind. You may see me joke around about GT being terrible, but I actually quite like it quite a lot. I watched it growing up, so flaws and all it has a special place in my heart.

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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Post by PFM18 » Thu May 17, 2018 11:38 pm

EGonzo wrote:It hasn't really changed my mind. You may see me joke around about GT being terrible, but I actually quite like it quite a lot. I watched it growing up, so flaws and all it has a special place in my heart.
Yeah I liked it too as a kid. Everyone did. But watching it with a mpre analytical mindset as an adult or atleast not a kid, will usually lead you to believe that it is trash.

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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Post by Rebel Instinct » Fri May 18, 2018 3:19 am

Robo4900 wrote:I loved it before, I still love it now.

Only real difference Super made is it lead me to revisit the original 3 shows before it went on-air, and as I hadn't seen them in several years, I was able to appreciate all three of them to a greater degree, and in particular, the music stood out a lot more strongly for me, which was an especially big deal for GT. But, Super itself has had no influence on this.

The only thing Super has really impacted my opinions on is that I'm a lot more cynical about modern Dragon Ball in general(Which I consider to be anything post-2006) than I was when that period basically only consisted of Kai, BOG, and a bunch of video games.
Logania wrote:Hasn't really effected my opinions on GT, but it did make me want to rewatch the entire series to get Super out of my head.

Despite Super giving me some cool stuff like Goku Black and my boi Hit, it also made me incredibly bitter about the future of the franchise. Going from "Oh man, I wonder how ____ will be, I can't wait to see more!" to "Oh God, they're doing ____ , I wonder how bad it will be..."
If I'm being honest, my feelings pretty much fall along these lines as well. Despite openly displaying my contempt for the Future Trunks arc in my sig, more than any individual writing decision/mistake made by Super the biggest sin the series carries for me personally is making me cynical and bitter about a franchise I once loved wholeheartedly. Thanks to Super (along with most of the associated actions of the DB community), I'm more jaded about the franchise than I've been in over a decade. To this day, Super is the one and only Dragon Ball series to actually make me angry. No other continuity has managed to do that. Not the movies, not the games, not even GT.

While Super has in no way changed how I already felt about GT (as it very well shouldn't), if anything it's at least made me appreciate its existence more than I did before. GT still has all the same highs and lows I thought it did before, but now I know I have a choice between two continuities and I know which one doesn't actively aggravate me. Even if I didn't already have a fondness for GT, I'd still think it better on the sole basis that it didn't agitate me in any real way. Even though I like some of the new characters and concepts introduced by Super, it remains a black mark on the franchise for me - not only for what it did within its own narrative, but for changing the way I look at the franchise overall.
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Asura wrote:It may make some reconsider if they realize that the mistakes they’ve been defending in Super were also mistakes that GT made. There’s a very popular “Hate GT first, ask questions/think about it later” sentiment when it comes to the show, whereas Super doesn’t have as negative a reputation.

I know at least a few people myself who love Super and hate GT, despite admitting they’ve never even seen a single episode of GT.
I'd bet a substantial amount of money that almost no one in the DB community is going to reconsider their stance on GT in light of Super (or in light of any other circumstance for that matter). Hatred for GT is deeply ingrained in the fandom identity, as is a strong sense of stubbornness and pride. Even if the shared flaws between the two continuities were entertained, there's no way most people will openly backtrack on their opinions. This is reinforced by the stigma attached to GT that makes most of the community treat its fans like "that guy". "They like GT? Oh, so they're one of them..." That tribal hatred for the "other" is what's culminated in that "hating GT without ever actually having seen GT" sentiment you're referring to.

I wish it weren't the case, but that's just the way of things. Ideally, people would watch it for themselves before making up their mind, but even then most people who haven't seen it already have had their opinion of it pre-colored by the rest of the fandom. They'll go in expecting garbage and that's the lens they'll see it through.
PFM18 wrote:Yeah now that Super exists as the sequel to DBZ then GT doesnt really have any reason to exist anymore.
It has every reason to exist. The characters and designs are well loved by a significant portion of the community, totally separate from any opinions of the anime's overall quality. The designs and forms are used frequently in the games and they make for good DLC and merchandise sales. GT deserves to exist on that basis alone, let alone the parts of the community that actually like the series and want it to stick around.
PFM18 wrote:Just an inferior version with no character development or action from anyone other than Goku
In your opinion, of course. Not factually. This should go without saying, I suppose, since others feel differently.
PFM18 wrote:Yeah I liked it too as a kid. Everyone did. But watching it with a mpre analytical mindset as an adult or atleast not a kid, will usually lead you to believe that it is trash.
This comment runs dangerously close to a "Smart people know GT sucks." kind of sentiment. Even if that's not the intent, at the very least it gives off the idea that no one with an "analytical mind" would like it. There's no objectivity in taste, as they say. Out of curiosity, what conclusion would an "analytical mindset" draw from Super as opposed to GT?
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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Post by buutenks » Fri May 18, 2018 11:36 am

GT is still crap apart from ssj4. Only Goku is useful there and it is quite boring TBH. Plus i never cared for it.

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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Post by PFM18 » Fri May 18, 2018 11:50 am

Rebel Instinct wrote:
PFM18 wrote:Yeah now that Super exists as the sequel to DBZ then GT doesnt really have any reason to exist anymore.
It has every reason to exist. The characters and designs are well loved by a significant portion of the community, totally separate from any opinions of the anime's overall quality. The designs and forms are used frequently in the games and they make for good DLC and merchandise sales. GT deserves to exist on that basis alone, let alone the parts of the community that actually like the series and want it to stick around.
PFM18 wrote:Just an inferior version with no character development or action from anyone other than Goku
In your opinion, of course. Not factually. This should go without saying, I suppose, since others feel differently.
PFM18 wrote:Yeah I liked it too as a kid. Everyone did. But watching it with a mpre analytical mindset as an adult or atleast not a kid, will usually lead you to believe that it is trash.
This comment runs dangerously close to a "Smart people know GT sucks." kind of sentiment. Even if that's not the intent, at the very least it gives off the idea that no one with an "analytical mind" would like it. There's no objectivity in taste, as they say. Out of curiosity, what conclusion would an "analytical mindset" draw from Super as opposed to GT?
The fact that GT is an inferior version is certainly subjective and only my opinion. But I am not sure that anybody can really objectively argue that there was significant action from anyone other than Goku or that there was tangible character development in the series. Goku was the only one that did anything of significance and as far as the characters go there were no signifcant character arcs or anything like that.

I am not saying that "Smart people know GT sucks" I am just saying that as a kid most people liked it because thats how kids are. As an adult, it is harder to see it as a legitimate addition to DB and it is hard to not notice the laundry list of flaws within it if you are watching as an adult

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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Fri May 18, 2018 12:36 pm

No. Super didn't have any impact.
GT was always a good series to me and Super is garbage.
I see no reason to change my opinion on any DB series because of such thing as DBS.

Maybe i appreciated Garlic Jr. saga from Z a bit more after seeing DBS and that's it.

I try to judge every series on its own.
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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Post by Robo4900 » Fri May 18, 2018 12:45 pm

PFM18 wrote:The fact that GT is an inferior version is certainly subjective and only my opinion.
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Rebel Instinct wrote:I'd bet a substantial amount of money that almost no one in the DB community is going to reconsider their stance on GT in light of Super (or in light of any other circumstance for that matter). Hatred for GT is deeply ingrained in the fandom identity, as is a strong sense of stubbornness and pride. Even if the shared flaws between the two continuities were entertained, there's no way most people will openly backtrack on their opinions. This is reinforced by the stigma attached to GT that makes most of the community treat its fans like "that guy". "They like GT? Oh, so they're one of them..." That tribal hatred for the "other" is what's culminated in that "hating GT without ever actually having seen GT" sentiment you're referring to.

I wish it weren't the case, but that's just the way of things. Ideally, people would watch it for themselves before making up their mind, but even then most people who haven't seen it already have had their opinion of it pre-colored by the rest of the fandom. They'll go in expecting garbage and that's the lens they'll see it through.
Well said(As is the case with the entirety of your post).
I think in 10 or 20 years, once the hype has died down, Super will be reflected on with a much more critical eye, and if I have anything to say about it, I'm going to try my damndest to get people to reconsider GT, even if it kills me, so maybe, just maybe, in 10 or 20 years, when people start to look back on Super less favourably, maybe GT will be a little more appreciated...

But yeah, unfortunately, it does seem that GT is doomed to be "the one hated by everyone who isn't lame".
Rebel Instinct wrote:This comment runs dangerously close to a "Smart people know GT sucks." kind of sentiment. Even if that's not the intent, at the very least it gives off the idea that no one with an "analytical mind" would like it. There's no objectivity in taste, as they say. Out of curiosity, what conclusion would an "analytical mindset" draw from Super as opposed to GT?
Indeed.
I don't think it would be too far or egotistical to say that I could be described as one with an analytical mind, and it's quite clear from my post history that I apply this with full force to GT; I analyse the crap out of this show, and I'm always finding new depths to its brilliance. So, if this is the point being attempted, I couldn't disagree with it more.

I hesitate to point this out, but I find digging into Super only reveals new depths of its narrative, strucutral, and characterisation failures...
I don't want to try to invert this to "Smart people know Super sucks", because that's just unfair and ridiculous. But, if someone wants to claim this criticism works one way, it's only fair to point out that it can easily work the other way too.
PFM18 wrote:But I am not sure that anybody can really objectively argue that there was significant action from anyone other than Goku
Black-Star and Baby arcs: Pan, Trunks, Oob, Boo, Baby, Piccolo, Kaioshin, elder Kaioshin.
Tournament one-off: Oob, Boo, Pan.
Super #17 arc: #18, #17, Dr. Myuu, Piccolo.
Evil Dragons arc: Pan, Vegeta, Si Xing Long, Yi Xing Long.

For details, see below.
PFM18 wrote:or that there was tangible character development in the series.
Boo sacrifices himself to save Mr. Satan and the rest of humanity, leaving Mr. Satan alone, leading him to fall into something of a slump/minor depression, so he decided to retire and let someone like Pan or Oob take up the role. However, thanks to Boo influencing Oob's subconscious, Oob lets Mr. Satan take the win in their fight, and thanks to his confidence gained from this, and the love of his adoring fans that was rained on him as a result of this, Mr. Satan learns to move on with his life and be happy without Boo.

Vegeta puts aside his petty need to prove himself, and just decides to get stronger for the sake of getting stronger, with the idea that he'll ever necessarily be stronger than Goku being a pipe dream at this point; he'll protect his family, and continue to get stronger, but he won't be held back by his petty squabble with Goku anymore, so after Goku acquires the Super Saiyan 4 form, instead of throwing a fit about the fact he can't do it, he just chills out, in fact he's rather surprised when Bulma tells him that he actually can attain the form. And, instead of showing off the power of the form once he gets it, he immediately talks to Goku, and discusses the truth -- their only way to win, to save the day, and for both them and their loved ones to survive, is if they attempt a fusion, something he wouldn't even consider during the fight with kid Boo, which is when he finally came to the realisation that Goku will always be his better, and somewhat made his peace with it, leading him on a subtle journey of self-discovery in the background of GT, culminating in both the episode where he looks back over his life since meeting Goku, and the parts I've described from the fight with Yi Xing Long.

Each of these took place over about 2 or 3 episodes. GT was very good at being concise with its character development and overall storytelling; it tended to give characters a moment or two in the spotlight, so each character is able to be given the proper respect and care they deserve for their character arc, which is often necessary in a cast this big. Super struggles with this a lot, and usually ends up with situations like the Tournament Of Power, where the characters are just kind of shoved on screen together, and very little actual development is given for many of these characters; Super aims higher and misses, while GT aims lower, and lands.
On top of this, GT is often a lot more subtle; rather than Super's approach of over-explaining everything, even when it's clear the writers don't actually fully understand what they're over-explaining(Super Saiyan Blue, anyone?), GT just kind of does things, and lets the implications of it hang for the viewer to interpret. In cases like the Vegeta thing, they did set aside an episode for it to be brought to the forefront, basically ending the subtlety of that character arc, but it had to be done to set things up for the fight with Yi Xing Long, otherwise Vegeta's appearance out of no-where, his transformation to Super Saiyan 4, and his changed attitude would be rather confusing for anyone who isn't as obsessively observant of such things as I am.

But, getting back to the balance of characters, in regards to Super aiming high, and GT aiming fairly low...

In Super, Piccolo shows up for the U6 tournament, and basically exists to be the second person to be Worf'd by Frost, and in the TOP, he's present to kind of hang around and fight a little bit, but not progress the story or his character in any way.
In GT, Piccolo chooses to die on earth. It's easy to imagine ways in which he could have survived; Goku could have gone and asked Kaio or one of the Kaioshin for a favour, but he chose to die. With Piccolo's death, the Black-Star Dragon Balls go away, meaning they don't have to be sought out again, and the mess caused by their existence can never be a problem again. Piccolo had lived a long, fruitful life in this time, and he completely willingly faces death; the one who takes it the hardest is, naturally, Gohan, who he has a conversation with so the two can have a proper goodbye.
Piccolo later makes another great sacrifice by choosing to descend to hell to help Goku escape, and in the final episode, he's one of the people Goku meets up with to say goodbye, in what is IMO one of the best scenes in the franchise. The scene isn't just a total nosequitor/haphazardly-inserted character thing either; Goku's visit to hell to talk to Piccolo implies many things, just with the fact Goku was able to visit hell.

So, is a couple of episodes of Piccolo getting some really interesting character stuff better than several episodes of him just hanging around and not doing much? I would say so. Unless all you're watching the show for is the fights, I can't see why you'd say otherwise.
PFM18 wrote:I am not saying that "Smart people know GT sucks" I am just saying that as a kid most people liked it because thats how kids are. As an adult, it is harder to see it as a legitimate addition to DB and it is hard to not notice the laundry list of flaws within it if you are watching as an adult
Except, by saying that, that's exactly what you're saying. If you say that kids like it because that's how kids are, and that it's hard to see the show as a legitimate addition to the franchise as an adult, then very clearly what you're saying is that any adults who like it are being childish, therefore "Smart people know GT sucks" very much enters into this.
To be clear, you're allowed to be of the opinion that GT is a show only kids can really like, just do be honest and consistent about it.
Last edited by Robo4900 on Fri May 18, 2018 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Post by Cetra » Fri May 18, 2018 12:52 pm

PFM18 wrote: I am not saying that "Smart people know GT sucks" I am just saying that as a kid most people liked it because thats how kids are. As an adult, it is harder to see it as a legitimate addition to DB

The irony. I was underwhelmed by GT as a child and returned to it and loved it once I became a grown up. As a child I merely acknowledged it as that other part of Dragon Ball that does not interest me that much because it was not that super pwnsome and shallow mirror image of Dragon Ball Z. But then, as an adult who wanted more and came back to his original thinking of "I want to know what happens after vol. 42" I began to love it, even if some moments are cringeworthy for me and GT has my most hated moment in my entire franchise. It has my most loved and my most hated.
PFM18 wrote:But watching it with a mpre analytical mindset as an adult or atleast not a kid, will usually lead you to believe that it is trash.
Interesting. I am an actual scientist. Over-analytical to the point of it being neurotical. And I cannot agree with that at all. What I know though is that humanity is highly hypocritical and that their perception, understanding and followed by it their evaluation often gets muddy because of that.
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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Post by Potara-Warrior96 » Fri May 18, 2018 4:16 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:The fact that GT is an inferior version is certainly subjective and only my opinion.
Image
Backup link for future readers in case the image breaks
Rebel Instinct wrote:I'd bet a substantial amount of money that almost no one in the DB community is going to reconsider their stance on GT in light of Super (or in light of any other circumstance for that matter). Hatred for GT is deeply ingrained in the fandom identity, as is a strong sense of stubbornness and pride. Even if the shared flaws between the two continuities were entertained, there's no way most people will openly backtrack on their opinions. This is reinforced by the stigma attached to GT that makes most of the community treat its fans like "that guy". "They like GT? Oh, so they're one of them..." That tribal hatred for the "other" is what's culminated in that "hating GT without ever actually having seen GT" sentiment you're referring to.

I wish it weren't the case, but that's just the way of things. Ideally, people would watch it for themselves before making up their mind, but even then most people who haven't seen it already have had their opinion of it pre-colored by the rest of the fandom. They'll go in expecting garbage and that's the lens they'll see it through.
Well said(As is the case with the entirety of your post).
I think in 10 or 20 years, once the hype has died down, Super will be reflected on with a much more critical eye, and if I have anything to say about it, I'm going to try my damndest to get people to reconsider GT, even if it kills me, so maybe, just maybe, in 10 or 20 years, when people start to look back on Super less favourably, maybe GT will be a little more appreciated...

But yeah, unfortunately, it does seem that GT is doomed to be "the one hated by everyone who isn't lame".
Rebel Instinct wrote:This comment runs dangerously close to a "Smart people know GT sucks." kind of sentiment. Even if that's not the intent, at the very least it gives off the idea that no one with an "analytical mind" would like it. There's no objectivity in taste, as they say. Out of curiosity, what conclusion would an "analytical mindset" draw from Super as opposed to GT?
Indeed.
I don't think it would be too far or egotistical to say that I could be described as one with an analytical mind, and it's quite clear from my post history that I apply this with full force to GT; I analyse the crap out of this show, and I'm always finding new depths to its brilliance. So, if this is the point being attempted, I couldn't disagree with it more.

I hesitate to point this out, but I find digging into Super only reveals new depths of its narrative, strucutral, and characterisation failures...
I don't want to try to invert this to "Smart people know Super sucks", because that's just unfair and ridiculous. But, if someone wants to claim this criticism works one way, it's only fair to point out that it can easily work the other way too.
PFM18 wrote:But I am not sure that anybody can really objectively argue that there was significant action from anyone other than Goku
Black-Star and Baby arcs: Pan, Trunks, Oob, Boo, Baby, Piccolo, Kaioshin, elder Kaioshin.
Tournament one-off: Oob, Boo, Pan.
Super #17 arc: #18, #17, Dr. Myuu, Piccolo.
Evil Dragons arc: Pan, Vegeta, Si Xing Long, Yi Xing Long.

For details, see below.
PFM18 wrote:or that there was tangible character development in the series.
Boo sacrifices himself to save Mr. Satan and the rest of humanity, leaving Mr. Satan alone, leading him to fall into something of a slump/minor depression, so he decided to retire and let someone like Pan or Oob take up the role. However, thanks to Boo influencing Oob's subconscious, Oob lets Mr. Satan take the win in their fight, and thanks to his confidence gained from this, and the love of his adoring fans that was rained on him as a result of this, Mr. Satan learns to move on with his life and be happy without Boo.

Vegeta puts aside his petty need to prove himself, and just decides to get stronger for the sake of getting stronger, with the idea that he'll ever necessarily be stronger than Goku being a pipe dream at this point; he'll protect his family, and continue to get stronger, but he won't be held back by his petty squabble with Goku anymore, so after Goku acquires the Super Saiyan 4 form, instead of throwing a fit about the fact he can't do it, he just chills out, in fact he's rather surprised when Bulma tells him that he actually can attain the form. And, instead of showing off the power of the form once he gets it, he immediately talks to Goku, and discusses the truth -- their only way to win, to save the day, and for both them and their loved ones to survive, is if they attempt a fusion, something he wouldn't even consider during the fight with kid Boo, which is when he finally came to the realisation that Goku will always be his better, and somewhat made his peace with it, leading him on a subtle journey of self-discovery in the background of GT, culminating in both the episode where he looks back over his life since meeting Goku, and the parts I've described from the fight with Yi Xing Long.

Each of these took place over about 2 or 3 episodes. GT was very good at being concise with its character development and overall storytelling; it tended to give characters a moment or two in the spotlight, so each character is able to be given the proper respect and care they deserve for their character arc, which is often necessary in a cast this big. Super struggles with this a lot, and usually ends up with situations like the Tournament Of Power, where the characters are just kind of shoved on screen together, and very little actual development is given for many of these characters; Super aims higher and misses, while GT aims lower, and lands.
On top of this, GT is often a lot more subtle; rather than Super's approach of over-explaining everything, even when it's clear the writers don't actually fully understand what they're over-explaining(Super Saiyan Blue, anyone?), GT just kind of does things, and lets the implications of it hang for the viewer to interpret. In cases like the Vegeta thing, they did set aside an episode for it to be brought to the forefront, basically ending the subtlety of that character arc, but it had to be done to set things up for the fight with Yi Xing Long, otherwise Vegeta's appearance out of no-where, his transformation to Super Saiyan 4, and his changed attitude would be rather confusing for anyone who isn't as obsessively observant of such things as I am.

But, getting back to the balance of characters, in regards to Super aiming high, and GT aiming fairly low...

In Super, Piccolo shows up for the U6 tournament, and basically exists to be the second person to be Worf'd by Frost, and in the TOP, he's present to kind of hang around and fight a little bit, but not progress the story or his character in any way.
In GT, Piccolo chooses to die on earth. It's easy to imagine ways in which he could have survived; Goku could have gone and asked Kaio or one of the Kaioshin for a favour, but he chose to die. With Piccolo's death, the Black-Star Dragon Balls go away, meaning they don't have to be sought out again, and the mess caused by their existence can never be a problem again. Piccolo had lived a long, fruitful life in this time, and he completely willingly faces death; the one who takes it the hardest is, naturally, Gohan, who he has a conversation with so the two can have a proper goodbye.
Piccolo later makes another great sacrifice by choosing to descend to hell to help Goku escape, and in the final episode, he's one of the people Goku meets up with to say goodbye, in what is IMO one of the best scenes in the franchise. The scene isn't just a total nosequitor/haphazardly-inserted character thing either; Goku's visit to hell to talk to Piccolo implies many things, just with the fact Goku was able to visit hell.

So, is a couple of episodes of Piccolo getting some really interesting character stuff better than several episodes of him just hanging around and not doing much? I would say so. Unless all you're watching the show for is the fights, I can't see why you'd say otherwise.
PFM18 wrote:I am not saying that "Smart people know GT sucks" I am just saying that as a kid most people liked it because thats how kids are. As an adult, it is harder to see it as a legitimate addition to DB and it is hard to not notice the laundry list of flaws within it if you are watching as an adult
Except, by saying that, that's exactly what you're saying. If you say that kids like it because that's how kids are, and that it's hard to see the show as a legitimate addition to the franchise as an adult, then very clearly what you're saying is that any adults who like it are being childish, therefore "Smart people know GT sucks" very much enters into this.
To be clear, you're allowed to be of the opinion that GT is a show only kids can really like, just do be honest and consistent about it.
Jesus I wish Kanzenshuu had a like system so I could like this. Your comment perfectly articulates how I. Like I find it really ironic how many people I've seen say stuff like "If you like GT then you're easily impressed" and I'm thinking "do these people remember anything from the series". GT wasn't the series that has a recolor of an original SSJ form plus GT was bold enough to let a character stay dead (something you'll rarely see with Super) while also not feeding the info to the audience through contrived character dailouge mind you it actually kept the characters mostly consistent through out.

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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Post by PFM18 » Fri May 18, 2018 5:10 pm

Boo sacrifices himself to save Mr. Satan and the rest of humanity, leaving Mr. Satan alone, leading him to fall into something of a slump/minor depression, so he decided to retire and let someone like Pan or Oob take up the role. However, thanks to Boo influencing Oob's subconscious, Oob lets Mr. Satan take the win in their fight, and thanks to his confidence gained from this, and the love of his adoring fans that was rained on him as a result of this, Mr. Satan learns to move on with his life and be happy without Boo.

Vegeta puts aside his petty need to prove himself, and just decides to get stronger for the sake of getting stronger, with the idea that he'll ever necessarily be stronger than Goku being a pipe dream at this point; he'll protect his family, and continue to get stronger, but he won't be held back by his petty squabble with Goku anymore, so after Goku acquires the Super Saiyan 4 form, instead of throwing a fit about the fact he can't do it, he just chills out, in fact he's rather surprised when Bulma tells him that he actually can attain the form. And, instead of showing off the power of the form once he gets it, he immediately talks to Goku, and discusses the truth -- their only way to win, to save the day, and for both them and their loved ones to survive, is if they attempt a fusion, something he wouldn't even consider during the fight with kid Boo, which is when he finally came to the realisation that Goku will always be his better, and somewhat made his peace with it, leading him on a subtle journey of self-discovery in the background of GT, culminating in both the episode where he looks back over his life since meeting Goku, and the parts I've described from the fight with Yi Xing Long.
Yes, I shouldn't have used the word "fact." pretend I replaced that word with "notion" or "idea."

Ya know what? I don't think that I really ever realized that about Mr. Satan. I guess he did receive some minor development in GT. As far as Vegeta goes, what you are describing is technically "development" in the sense that Vegeta changed in GT. I see it more specifically as character regression. Suddenly Vegeta is a stay at home dad who trains sometimes as a hobby instead of being a prideful warrior that he was in every other iteration of the character. He didn't progress as a character and further himself, he just changed altogether. Now he doesn't care about surpassing Goku, he isn't a warrior anymore he is just a glorified "stay at home dad", where that is all he does: stay at home. As far as giving up on his quest to surpass Goku and just accepting that he is inferior, that is just downright ridiculous to me. Vegeta has always been somebody who never gives up and takes pride in his strength. Now he is a pathetic little bitch who just gives up on being strong and accepts that he will always be inferior to Goku. Vegeta is portrayed as not a Saiyan warrior who loves his family, but a generic dad who likes fighting sometimes. I guess it is development but a poor one. See in Super, he is still a warrior that wants to be the most powerful. He for the most part, he still wants to surpass Goku and that remains his main motivation to fight and become stronger, until his family's lives become in jeopardy and he forgets about surpassing Goku and now he is motivated by protecting his family and those he cares about, this transition resulted in a new transformation for him too. Rather than the pseudo transformation they give to him in GT where a machine is the catalyst for his transformation.

I realize that all of this is subjective and mostly my opinion. You did open my eyes to Mr. Satan's development, and I apologize for not realizing that prior to this and giving GT credit for that. Vegeta did have "character development" but it was in the worst way possible.(again just my opinion)

But again, what I said about nobody in the series other than Goku has significant action still remains true. Answer this: At any point in GT, did anybody other than Goku ever win a fight in any capacity? The answer is no and it speaks to how pathetic GT is as a whole. Super gives a laundry list of characters wins in battle in a franchise where the main draw is the fighting.

I apologize if I came off as trying to insult the intelligence of anybody watching GT. I believe that the enjoyment people have of GT is often a result of how easily a child is amused. I grew up and I have to force myself to watch it. I think a lot of other people share the same sentiment of seeing GT as extremely difficult to watch.

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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Post by Robo4900 » Fri May 18, 2018 7:35 pm

Potara-Warrior96 wrote:Jesus I wish Kanzenshuu had a like system so I could like this. Your comment perfectly articulates how I. Like I find it really ironic how many people I've seen say stuff like "If you like GT then you're easily impressed" and I'm thinking "do these people remember anything from the series". GT wasn't the series that has a recolor of an original SSJ form plus GT was bold enough to let a character stay dead (something you'll rarely see with Super) while also not feeding the info to the audience through contrived character dailouge mind you it actually kept the characters mostly consistent through out.
Cheers, friend. :)
Glad to know I'm not alone in this.
PFM18 wrote:Ya know what? I don't think that I really ever realized that about Mr. Satan. I guess he did receive some minor development in GT.
You'll notice that a lot with the things GT does well. All anyone wants to talk about is the things they think suck about it, and how it compares to Super, but no one ever actually discusses the things it does well, or otherwise puts aside the "but does gt suck tho" debate in favour of actually discussing what it does.
PFM18 wrote:As far as Vegeta goes, what you are describing is technically "development" in the sense that Vegeta changed in GT. I see it more specifically as character regression. Suddenly Vegeta is a stay at home dad who trains sometimes as a hobby instead of being a prideful warrior that he was in every other iteration of the character. He didn't progress as a character and further himself, he just changed altogether. Now he doesn't care about surpassing Goku, he isn't a warrior anymore he is just a glorified "stay at home dad", where that is all he does: stay at home. As far as giving up on his quest to surpass Goku and just accepting that he is inferior, that is just downright ridiculous to me. Vegeta has always been somebody who never gives up and takes pride in his strength. Now he is a pathetic little bitch who just gives up on being strong and accepts that he will always be inferior to Goku. Vegeta is portrayed as not a Saiyan warrior who loves his family, but a generic dad who likes fighting sometimes. I guess it is development but a poor one.
I'm beginning to wonder if all you've watched of GT is the Funimation dub, and that that dub was even worse than I remember.

Vegeta gave up on his petty squabble with Goku during his big internal monologue in the kid Boo fight. If you want to throw that criticism around, you're throwing it at Z; GT simply carried on what had already been established. I see it as massive character growth on Vegeta's part. Vegeta had gone as far as to let an evil wizard corrupt his soul so he could perhaps beat Goku. And even then, Goku was holding back his Super Saiyan 3 transformation, which he could have used to completely destroy Vegeta. Vegeta very clearly had a big change of heart when he realised this, culminating in his inner monologue during the kid Boo fight. It's not as if he's lost his pride, or become a lazy slob, or anything, he's grown older, he's matured, and he's learned some humility. He doesn't obsess over his inferiority complex against Goku anymore, he trains to find out and reach his own limits, a much more reasonable goal. And while Goku and he will always be rivals, at this point in their lives, they're much older, much more mature, and it's evolved into a respectful, actually fairly friendly rivalry.

Think about it for a moment, you're saying that it would be better if Vegeta was still pursuing something which drove him to murder a crowd(At the tournament, as Majin Vegeta) and potentially risk the destruction of the entire planet by unleashing a monster that he had to kill himself to attempt to destroy, and yet he didn't make any headway.
He was incredibly self-destructive throughout Z, and his journey into the end of the Boo arc, the end of Z epilogue, and the material that GT begins to cover, is him learning to not be a self-destructive, selfish moron who'll quite literally get himself, crowds of other people, the planet, maybe even the entire universe destroyed just so he can have one fight with someone who's slightly stronger than him. Part of growing up is learning to let things go, to accept that -- while you can and should always try your best -- sometimes someone is just better than you, and it's better to just accept that than to spend years destroying yourself trying to achieve a goal that you'll die failing to achieve, destroying everyone around you as you do it.

Vegeta is very clearly still training, still trying to push his own limits in GT; he gets the Super Saiyan 4 transformation, etc., but he's not going to do another Majin Vegeta situation, and maybe he never will surpass Goku. He can still try, and he always will, and he'll never stop fighting, but he's not going to obsessively take absolutely every chance he can to become stronger, to the point where it's like an addiction.
PFM18 wrote:See in Super, he is still a warrior that wants to be the most powerful. He for the most part, he still wants to surpass Goku and that remains his main motivation to fight and become stronger, until his family's lives become in jeopardy and he forgets about surpassing Goku and now he is motivated by protecting his family and those he cares about, this transition resulted in a new transformation for him too. Rather than the pseudo transformation they give to him in GT where a machine is the catalyst for his transformation.
Pseudo transformation? The hell are you even talking about? He goes Super Saiyan 4. The only reason he couldn't do it on his own is his lack of a tail. The machine doesn't give him a half-measure, it means he can transform without needing a tail. He goes Super Saiyan 4 because he has put the work in, and is capable of doing it. You want a pseudo-transformation, what about that Blue form? The way it was explained, it's the power of a Super Saiyan God(Which Goku retained after reverting), mixed with a Super Saiyan(Which is what Goku had in his red form, and when he went Super Saiyan), but without giving the more youthful form, or the healing factor. And yet, that's the one you're pointedly not calling a pseudo-transformation... :think:

That aside, I never said Vegeta isn't trying to get stronger/surpass Goku, I said that he admitted Goku is his better way back in the Boo arc. GT is set something like a decade after that. Not only has he accepted this, but he's moved on from it; if he can surpass Goku, great! But if not, that's fine too; he's going to work on getting stronger until he dies, but he's not going to obsess over it, or even worry about the fact that he may never be stronger than Goku. Part of his identity is the fact he's a proud warrior who will always strive to be stronger, and he doesn't have to discard that, but he doesn't have to be an idiot that'll destroy his family and the entire planet to do it.

Super just basically disregards the entire kid Boo fight, aswell as the Majin Vegeta thing. It's like it's all set during the Great Saiyaman arc, except since there's no urgency about Goku returning to the afterlife after 24 hours, Vegeta's not as antsy about it. You want character regression? Super is a textbook example; it's like the kid Boo fight never even happened.
PFM18 wrote:I realize that all of this is subjective and mostly my opinion. You did open my eyes to Mr. Satan's development, and I apologize for not realizing that prior to this and giving GT credit for that. Vegeta did have "character development" but it was in the worst way possible.(again just my opinion)
Cheers, dude. I would like to take this opportunity to point out that if I come off as rude anywhere here, it's not my intention, and I apologise if that's how I do come off. I am very much enjoying this conversation, and I'm grateful that we're able to discuss such things in a civil manner. :)
PFM18 wrote:But again, what I said about nobody in the series other than Goku has significant action still remains true. Answer this: At any point in GT, did anybody other than Goku ever win a fight in any capacity?
Fights aren't all Dragon Ball is.
If that was your only metric, the Pilaf, Red Ribbon, and Piccolo arcs fall under this "Criticism" of yours.
PFM18 wrote:Super gives a laundry list of characters wins in battle in a franchise where the main draw is the fighting.
Because Super is all fighting, no characterisation, no real plot. It's boring tripe of the worst kind.

And... Sure, the fighting may be what's being used as the main thing right now, and in fact, it's the one thing Super doesn't totally fail at, but fighting isn't what Dragon Ball's about. In fact, I don't really care about the fighting that much, that's probably a lot of why I don't like Super; the reason I watch Dragon Ball is for the characters, the charm of the world, the wit of the storytelling, etc... Super only really does fighting, everything else is secondary, so it ends up being an empty experience like the second Coola movie, or the Artificial Human #13 movie.
PFM18 wrote:I grew up and I have to force myself to watch it. I think a lot of other people share the same sentiment of seeing GT as extremely difficult to watch.
And most of those people have only ever watched the Funimation dub.
If you've watched the Japanese version, I won't press you on this, but the Funimation dub of GT is not GT, it's the Super-Edgy Hardcore Metal Dragon Ball ZEEEEEEE Show Part 2!!... If that's how you went back and watched the show, I'd be surprised if you didn't find it difficult to watch, to be honest.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Like many things people endlessly insist that I said, I never said this.

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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sat May 19, 2018 11:39 am

My opinion on GT has been largely unchange. The only difference is I actually have something to compare it to.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Post by PFM18 » Sat May 19, 2018 3:38 pm

Robo4900 wrote:Vegeta gave up on his petty squabble with Goku during his big internal monologue in the kid Boo fight. If you want to throw that criticism around, you're throwing it at Z; GT simply carried on what had already been established. I see it as massive character growth on Vegeta's part. Vegeta had gone as far as to let an evil wizard corrupt his soul so he could perhaps beat Goku. And even then, Goku was holding back his Super Saiyan 3 transformation, which he could have used to completely destroy Vegeta. Vegeta very clearly had a big change of heart when he realised this, culminating in his inner monologue during the kid Boo fight. It's not as if he's lost his pride, or become a lazy slob, or anything, he's grown older, he's matured, and he's learned some humility. He doesn't obsess over his inferiority complex against Goku anymore, he trains to find out and reach his own limits, a much more reasonable goal. And while Goku and he will always be rivals, at this point in their lives, they're much older, much more mature, and it's evolved into a respectful, actually fairly friendly rivalry.

Think about it for a moment, you're saying that it would be better if Vegeta was still pursuing something which drove him to murder a crowd(At the tournament, as Majin Vegeta) and potentially risk the destruction of the entire planet by unleashing a monster that he had to kill himself to attempt to destroy, and yet he didn't make any headway.
He was incredibly self-destructive throughout Z, and his journey into the end of the Boo arc, the end of Z epilogue, and the material that GT begins to cover, is him learning to not be a self-destructive, selfish moron who'll quite literally get himself, crowds of other people, the planet, maybe even the entire universe destroyed just so he can have one fight with someone who's slightly stronger than him. Part of growing up is learning to let things go, to accept that -- while you can and should always try your best -- sometimes someone is just better than you, and it's better to just accept that than to spend years destroying yourself trying to achieve a goal that you'll die failing to achieve, destroying everyone around you as you do it.

Vegeta is very clearly still training, still trying to push his own limits in GT; he gets the Super Saiyan 4 transformation, etc., but he's not going to do another Majin Vegeta situation, and maybe he never will surpass Goku. He can still try, and he always will, and he'll never stop fighting, but he's not going to obsessively take absolutely every chance he can to become stronger, to the point where it's like an addition.
Well I am throwing the criticism at both Z and GT in this context. I had that monologue scene in the Kid Boo fight. The entire Kid Boo fight establishes that Vegeta never gives up no matter the odds and no matter how beaten he is. Kid Boo cannot believe how many times he gets up after he is knocked down. That is part of what I love about Vegeta's character. And then it is "Oh by the way I give up on surpassing my rival because reasons." he came off as soft and pathetic. Honestly if GT had completely disregarded that scene then GT Vegeta would have been a much more respectable character. They can have a respectful and "fairly friendly" rivalry without Vegeta accepting his failures as a warrior. His warrior mentality is what defines him as a character, his entire life has always revolved around battle. He doesn't even necessarily have to obsess over surpassing Goku, he just can not be petty about it and go about it in a more mature way, just striving to be the best in a competitive way but not in a way that he resents those he is competing with. Now in Super he has a family and he wants to be as strong as he possibly can be in order to protect his family, and surpassing Goku becomes a secondary priority. This shift in priorities culminated in a new transformation for him that he used to actually be useful for once and he beat a GoD with it. This emphasis on family being his motivation to be the very best rather than a squabble with a rival is where they should have gone with his character development, and that is exactly what Super did. You are right, in Super they acted like the Kid Boo fight never even happened and Vegeta never made that speech. And I love that they did that. In-Universe Vegeta realizes that he shouldn't give up, he is still the Saiyan Prince etc etc.

The character "development" should not feel so drastic that it doesn't even seem believable like the case in GT. GT Vegeta's passion for fighting is gone, now he is training as more of a hobby, he is no longer a warrior. This goes against everything he has learned his entire life, about how if you are weak people like Freeza will rule over you and what not. Vegeta is no longer fighting like his life depends on it, he just kinda does it because it is all he knows and he doesn't completely let himself go. Again, GT Vegeta just trains as a hobby and doesn't train because of a passion to increase his power, and this is more of character regression in my eyes. You can definitely push the limits of your fighting abilities without jeopardizing those around you and putting others in danger. Majin Vegeta did it that way but it doesn't have to be that way.

The fact that he no longer takes training as seriously is shown pretty clearly when he gets manhandled by Super 17 as a SSJ2 and then Goku shows up in SSJ/SSJ2 and starts doing significant damage. Goku was so far beyond everybody else that there's no reason to believe Vegeta has really been pushing himself, otherwise he would have been in the same league if not the same strength.(Probably close but still weaker like usual) And I only called SSJ4 a pseudo transformation for Vegeta because he didn't actually achieve it himself. Bulma sprays him down with his monkey waves and he goes SSJ4. He didn't actually do anything himself, he didn't achieve it in any way.

and yes you are right I did only watch the funimation dub of GT, and it may be an unfair comparison since I have seen DBZ and DBS in the subbed version. I will give you that.

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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Post by perucho1990 » Sun May 20, 2018 3:06 pm

That GT was more Goku Time than DBS, at least in DBS they had Trunks clashing with Merged Zamasu in the climax, people got mad because Trunks surpassed Vegetto, but screw it, it killed Goku time there and thats what matters the most.

Anime Jiren was a bad character, so bad that makes Fairy Tail characters look like Shishio, Meruem, Younger Toguro etc.

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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Post by Basaku » Wed May 23, 2018 6:04 am

DBZAOTA482 wrote:My opinion on GT has been largely unchange. The only difference is I actually have something to compare it to.
Pretty much. Both GT and Super are flawed, GT more so than Super IMO but it ain't like Super's gonna retroactively uplift or bring down GT's quality. It is what it's been since the 90s

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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Post by lancerman » Thu May 24, 2018 12:15 am

Super made me realize why I always viewed GT as sort of fan servicey. You can tell Toriyama was involved in Super. That charm and that obvious simplicity is missing from GT. Also Super does the characters far better. Goku in Super is far more reminiscent of the Goku from the original series. GT's Goku is just a knock off of every Shonen hero ever.

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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Thu May 24, 2018 12:44 am

lancerman wrote:Super made me realize why I always viewed GT as sort of fan servicey. You can tell Toriyama was involved in Super. That charm and that obvious simplicity is missing from GT. Also Super does the characters far better. Goku in Super is far more reminiscent of the Goku from the original series. GT's Goku is just a knock off of every Shonen hero ever.
I wish Goku in Super actually was more like Goku in the original series. He just feels like a parody now.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Post by TheZFighter » Thu May 24, 2018 2:40 am

Didn't like GT before and I still don't now.
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