Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Post by Timetraveller » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:12 am

sintzu wrote:
SsjCookie wrote:When some of the most popular main characters become a chore to watch, it proves that something went wrong along developing these characters.
It's a shame it ended up the way it did as GT had the freedom to do whatever it wanted (being set after the manga) and really great ideas on paper but they unfortunately didn't have anyone on the team who could bring everything together in a satisfying way that lived up to the potential they had. DB is currently in a really good place thanks to Toriyama but I really hope it can avoid another GT once he's done.
I think Super's in a much worse place with Toriyama choosing to be minimally involved. His name's attached to the product and he does provide some vague notes but Toei's writers ultimately do most of the work. You have many different writers trying to adapt someone else's vision so the writing's disjointed. Extreme power scaling inconsistencies, story conflicts where one person is out of stamina one episode and up and fighting the next like nothing happened and added fan service. Toei knows what's popular like Vegito or Future Trunks or Broly. The worst part to me is that Super's inherited Toriyama's laziness and weak storytelling like his overreliance on tournament arcs. Toriyama made Frieza gold because he couldn't think of how else to simplify the design. I don't think fans waited decades for what's essentially a recolor of old forms.

GT was free from those restrictions which is why they were much more creative with the designs and stories. It wasn't that well written but things exploring the universe and the shadow dragons were fresh ideas. I have high hopes for movie 20 though. They've got a lot of people on board and I think they'll be a bit more creative this time around. I mean surely they won't think about bringing Frieza back as a villain again?

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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Post by sintzu » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:50 am

Timetraveller wrote:I think Super's in a much worse place with Toriyama choosing to be minimally involved.

GT was free from those restrictions which is why they were much more creative with the designs and stories.
It's his involvement that has skyrocketed the franchise to new heights , both financially and creatively. Financially DB has far exceeded everyone's expectations while creatively we're getting the franchise's best games, we're on our 3rd modern movie and have a new 131 episode anime with a continuation surely on the way. Modern DB has many issues which I've brought up time and again but there's no denying that Toriyama's involvement, despite the issues he's brought, is the strongest thing DB has going for it now.

GT had the ideas and creativity but lacked the ability to bring them to life. Super's ideas may not be the most original but the people behind them made them work and that's what count.
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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Post by Timetraveller » Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:46 pm

sintzu wrote:
Timetraveller wrote:I think Super's in a much worse place with Toriyama choosing to be minimally involved.

GT was free from those restrictions which is why they were much more creative with the designs and stories.
It's his involvement that has skyrocketed the franchise to new heights , both financially and creatively. Financially DB has far exceeded everyone's expectations while creatively we're getting the franchise's best games, we're on our 3rd modern movie and have a new 131 episode anime with a continuation surely on the way. Modern DB has many issues which I've brought up time and again but there's no denying that Toriyama's involvement, despite the issues he's brought, is the strongest thing DB has going for it now.

GT had the ideas and creativity but lacked the ability to bring them to life. Super's ideas may not be the most original but the people behind them made them work and that's what count.
I agree that Toriyama's name is the strongest thing DB has going for it now. I just disagree that it's had a positive effect on the show quality wise. People are going to ignore flaws and buy into something if they hear the original creator's involved in it (not that he wasn't involved in GT). I wouldn't mind it if Super's unoriginal ideas were executed great but they weren't imo. The first 2 arcs are executed poorly (the BoG movie was great but the anime adaptations were notoriously bad), the third arc started off great but had a lackluster ending that has spawned many threads on here. In the final arc, I enjoyed the recruitment episodes more than the tournament itself excluding the final episodes. Too many fodder/useless characters and the main antagonist was largely undeveloped, standing still with his arms crossed for 90% of the battle.

It's time for new talent to take over. Shintani's designs look great and a writing team that controls the plot from beginning to end without relying on broken notes from someone else would give the show the quality it deserves.

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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Post by sintzu » Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:36 pm

Timetraveller wrote:It's time for new talent to take over. Shintani's designs look great and a writing team that controls the plot from beginning to end without relying on broken notes from someone else would give the show the quality it deserves.
I've been saying this for awhile now as new blood will not only improve DB and take in into new, possibly better places but they can also work with Toriyama to get more out of him.
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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Post by Master Xar » Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:04 pm

sintzu wrote:
SsjCookie wrote:I still prefer Super though.
You and me both. I've started re-watching GT in Japanese this time and even skipped the really bad episodes (6-15) and it's still a chore to get through. :yawn:
Master Xar wrote:You mean in a cheap death that ultimately was one of the few scenes he even showed up in up to that point ?

Uub did nothing with Baby, he got turned into candy and eaten, he barely even made Baby break a sweat, and this is before he was even a Great Ape. And he did nothing after that. At least Buu in Super actually fought and beat someone in the Exhibition Matches.

By which you mean GT Gohan proceeds to get taken over by Baby, hurt Piccolo, and aided Baby’s takeover of Earth, as far as I’m concerned those are negative points... but I will agree Super Gohan only did something in the last arc.

Uub was supposed to be a successor, he should have at least been strong enough to hold of Great Ape Baby after fusing with Buu, and actually able to do something with the other villains.
I'm not saying Piccolo was the best written character, just that he at least got one meaningful thing to do in GT.

Uub was pretty disappointing but it doesn't change the fact that Buu is a running gag in Super. I do agree that he was great in those matches and I wish we got more of that.

Gohan did nothing in both the Champa and Black arcs so although he was a push over in GT, he at least took part in the fights.

Completely agree. Super has a great chance to do something great with Uub once it (or another show) moves past EOZ so hopefully they don't waste it like GT did.
Mmm. That’s fair I guess.

It depends on how they handle EOZ if they decide to do it over again, if they’ll build up Uub as much or less can definitely change how I view they handle him Post EOZ and the other 3, I just hope they have more fighting spirit and act more like warriors than before, otherwise what separates them from the humans and other fighters?

... and give Pan and Trunks some different outfits for fuck sake. I think Pan looks like the most Scene lesbian on Earth. And Trunks needs to chamge out of the shorts too.

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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Post by Bebi Hatchiyack » Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:55 am

It has for me Super is far more interesting than GT.

Let's be clear right away in GT the Super Number 17 arc is just plain garbage nothing interesting here ! And they make ma boi 17 looks awful ! :evil:

Also I never understood the BS with the Black Star Dragon Ball being linked to earth and if they are not on earth the planet are doomed of destruction what in the actual fuck is that stupid plot ! *facepalm* NO JUST NO.

Goku being kid again :lolno: seriously no we already have him he grow up end of the talk, and if people give me the argument that if he weren't kid he would have been too much powerful for his opponent huh what ? Super gave us a way they gave us THE GODS OF DESTRUCTION, THE ANGEL & ZEN'OH ! Who are far more powerful than I Shinron and Bebi Vegeta see we can do it.

Pan oh hell no ! #NotMyPan

What I am thankful for GT is that they gave us good idea but with wasted potential, Ledgic for exemple why wasting such a good character you see him like what 5 episodes and then he disappear WHYYYYYYYYYYYY ! If I were to find him an equivalent in Super it's Hit which doesn't vanish and stay, I wanted to see more of Ledgic and help our Z-Team heck why not join them.

The SSJ4 is a good idea what I don't like it's how Vegeta get it that's out of his character, Super gave us a much better Vegeta.

In the end of Z we were given the hope that the next generation was about Pan and Uub, GT say FUCK YOU it's Goku again, Pan & Uub in space would have been much better for me, with Trunks and Goten and heck why not had Marron and Bra in the mix. GT could have stand for Goten Trunks see what I did there.

There is too much thing that I would change in GT than there is in Super, In Super what I would change is the end of the Zamasu Arc. Leaving it with Mirai Trunks winning with his Genkidama Sword. About that maybe make the arc longer to see Mirai Trunks train with Goku & Vegeta.

Another change I would have made it's in the battle royale ToP. In fact the royal battle for me I would have seen as a battle of philosophy with each specific Universe having their rivals. So I would have seen the Universe 2 fight the Universe 9 by antagonism, the Universe 6 would have been rival of the Universe 7 finally without having pronounced rivalry I think that the philosophy of Universe 3 is quite diametrically opposed to that of the Universe 10.

So the fight would have been like this:

- Universe 2 vs Universe 9
- Universe 6 vs Universe 7 (I know it would have been a redo)
- Universe 3 vs Universe 10

Universe 4 would have acted in terms of opportunism visualizing each Universe fight and attacking in cowardly position the fighters on the verge of being eliminated. That would have put them in an antagonistic position against the Universe 11 which advocates Justice.

I think that the battle royal would have been better handled if it had put in opposition the philosophies of each Universe thus allowing to focus on each character and its history, allowing us to attach ourselves to all the fighters thus during the elimination of a Universe giving us an impression of sadness / sorrow. Making the wish of Number 17 more emotionnal.

Overall for me Super did more than GT, except for Yamcha I feel and think that every Z-Warrior got their time to shine, I loved Vegeta in Super and fall in love with the character something that wasn't expecting since in Dragon Ball Z Vegeta was for me a fucking trash, but the Beerus arc and Zamasu Arc transformed the vision of the character to me FOREVER ! In GT he is not that remarkable to me. Also ma boi Number 17 was done great and right OMG ♥ Go to hell GT 17 :twisted:

FRIEZA WAS A MAGNIFICENT BASTARD ! in GT a deplorable JOKE along with Cell :crazy:

Dragon Ball GT the only thing memorable will be the quest of the Black Stars Dragon Balls leading up to the Bebi Arc, the next two arc are forgattable. But for Super I think there is only one arc Forgattable it's Ressurection F. The rest is awesome.

Here is my personnal opinion on the subject.
Saiya-jin me, watashi ha kisama wo koroshimasu

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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Post by Saiga » Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:30 pm

sintzu wrote:Vegeta was Baby's main body and got Ssj4 at the end but despite that Super wins this by a land slide as Vegeta got more than I could've ever hoped for.
I actually think Vegeta was handled better in GT. Sure, Super used him more, but I don't like what they did with him and I don't think getting wins or dramatic moments is important.

GT really nailed Vegeta's characterization and made him feel like he'd truly developed further than his Z incarnation, and they did so without needing to deliberately call to it every time it happened (unlike Super).

I really like moments like Vegeta getting Super Saiyan 4 but immediately suggesting fusion to Goku instead of showing off his new power. It's very different for the series and shows good growth for him.

I also like that the series didn't need to keep him alongside Goku for the entire run, because that gets old. He still got to be even with Goku for the final battle after they defused, so he got the most important part instead of being shoved into evverything.
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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Post by PFM18 » Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:31 am

Saiga wrote:
sintzu wrote:Vegeta was Baby's main body and got Ssj4 at the end but despite that Super wins this by a land slide as Vegeta got more than I could've ever hoped for.
I actually think Vegeta was handled better in GT. Sure, Super used him more, but I don't like what they did with him and I don't think getting wins or dramatic moments is important.

GT really nailed Vegeta's characterization and made him feel like he'd truly developed further than his Z incarnation, and they did so without needing to deliberately call to it every time it happened (unlike Super).

I really like moments like Vegeta getting Super Saiyan 4 but immediately suggesting fusion to Goku instead of showing off his new power. It's very different for the series and shows good growth for him.

I also like that the series didn't need to keep him alongside Goku for the entire run, because that gets old. He still got to be even with Goku for the final battle after they defused, so he got the most important part instead of being shoved into evverything.
GT Vegeta who is a pathetic loser who fights as a hobby and not as his passion. It is just something he kinda does in his free time rather than being a legitimate warrior. He's a completely different guy. And he's so pathetic he has a machine that gives him a transformation. A MACHINE. He was even with Goku for a final moment at the end for absolutely no reason. It made no sense as usual. He was established as far inferior to Goku and Goku "surpasses his limits" a couple times and then all of a sudden Vegeta gets this machine and they are even. It made absolutely no sense. He doesn't even take part in most of the fights and he doesn't have that fiery prideful demeanor that everybody loves about Vegeta. It was already established he can't be possessed and yet Baby deos/ I understand character development but that isn't development that's just changing the character entirely.

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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Post by Saiga » Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:17 am

I seriously don't care that Vegeta used a machine to facilitate Super Saiyan 4. It's actually really good, they used something from a prior arc in a way that allowed Bulma's scientific genius to assist him, and it made sense and built off previous material. Besides, the machine only allowed him to become the ape, mastering it (and with such ease) was Vegeta's doing.

In Super, he just thinks about his PRIDE and gets a new, unexplained form. I won't compare powerscaling because both series are awful at it.

For most of Super's run Vegeta wasn't equal to Goku either, because of Kaio-ken. Vegeta doesn't get his matching form until near the end of the final arc, making that part no different to GT... except it's even worse, because by the time he does Goku has already gone beyond again with omen and ends up getting the full UI for his fight with Jiren. Even though he doesn't retain it, Vegeta had nothing that matches that. And then for the rest of the run, they continue to act like Vegeta is equal to Goku despite Goku being able to use Kaio-ken.

Vegeta was never established as being unable to be possessed - that's quite silly. Babidi's magic still retained the minion's personality, allowing Vegeta to fight back against Babidi. Baby is completely different because he controls the body of his host directly.

As for him not being as obsessive about fighting - good for him. That absolutely wasn't a good quality about the original Vegeta. He still enjoys fighting and becoming stronger, he still fights to protect what he cares about, those are the most important things.

I can see why someone would dislike GT Vegeta if they were originally a fan of Vegeta's worst traits.
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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Post by Master Xar » Sat Jun 30, 2018 3:57 am

Saiga wrote:I seriously don't care that Vegeta used a machine to facilitate Super Saiyan 4. It's actually really good, they used something from a prior arc in a way that allowed Bulma's scientific genius to assist him, and it made sense and built off previous material. Besides, the machine only allowed him to become the ape, mastering it (and with such ease) was Vegeta's doing.

In Super, he just thinks about his PRIDE and gets a new, unexplained form. I won't compare powerscaling because both series are awful at it.

For most of Super's run Vegeta wasn't equal to Goku either, because of Kaio-ken. Vegeta doesn't get his matching form until near the end of the final arc, making that part no different to GT... except it's even worse, because by the time he does Goku has already gone beyond again with omen and ends up getting the full UI for his fight with Jiren. Even though he doesn't retain it, Vegeta had nothing that matches that. And then for the rest of the run, they continue to act like Vegeta is equal to Goku despite Goku being able to use Kaio-ken.

Vegeta was never established as being unable to be possessed - that's quite silly. Babidi's magic still retained the minion's personality, allowing Vegeta to fight back against Babidi. Baby is completely different because he controls the body of his host directly.

As for him not being as obsessive about fighting - good for him. That absolutely wasn't a good quality about the original Vegeta. He still enjoys fighting and becoming stronger, he still fights to protect what he cares about, those are the most important things.

I can see why someone would dislike GT Vegeta if they were originally a fan of Vegeta's worst traits.
I disagree, there’s developing and changing the character, and then there’s going too far to where they’re flatout boring. And GT Vegeta wasn’t all that developed anyways, look how he talks in the Super 17 fight, he is still as prideful as ever, they just use the developed front to make you think he is changed so they can force him out of the plot.

This is a fighting shonen not a soap opera, I didn’t come here to watch the characters sit on their ass, suck, and get weaker physically, mentally, or emotionally. Saiyans first and foremost will always be the hot-blooded warrior type. That’s their ideal, fighting is and always will (and should) be their status given the show they’re in. They never take hand-out power-ups outside of their own power and training never.

I’m all for development, but if it has little to do with the fighting and development of them as warriors, I couldn’t care less, his flaws make him interesting and fun to watch, and if I’m not having fun and the show bores me they can take the good writing and shove it, but hey if that’s what you want more power to you.

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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Post by Saiga » Sat Jun 30, 2018 5:21 am

His Super 17 fight is absolutely about his development. He's fighting to protect the Earth now, which is a big change for him, but he's still Vegeta at the core. You kind of argued against yourself there by saying that they shouldn't go too far while also saying he didn't change that much.

It's a fighting series, and it's not like GT has a shortage of fights. You just don't need to have Vegeta shoved in to all of them. It just seems incredibly shallow to present anything not directly related to fighting as being boring.

No, I don't want a boring series, but pointless, poorly written fights and inconsistent development is a sure fire way to get one - ala Super.
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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Post by PFM18 » Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:56 am

Saiga wrote:His Super 17 fight is absolutely about his development. He's fighting to protect the Earth now, which is a big change for him, but he's still Vegeta at the core. You kind of argued against yourself there by saying that they shouldn't go too far while also saying he didn't change that much.

It's a fighting series, and it's not like GT has a shortage of fights. You just don't need to have Vegeta shoved in to all of them. It just seems incredibly shallow to present anything not directly related to fighting as being boring.

No, I don't want a boring series, but pointless, poorly written fights and inconsistent development is a sure fire way to get one - ala Super.
How is having the interests of Earth in mind a big development for him? That is exactly what he was doing in the Buu Arc. He literally just became a submissive loser far removed from the Saiyan Warrior he was always supposed to be. There's nothing interesting about GT Vegeta whatsoever he is just a shell of his former self. He has regressed into a generic middle aged man who cares too much about people noticing whether or not he has a moustache.

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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Post by Master Xar » Sat Jun 30, 2018 4:23 pm

Saiga wrote:His Super 17 fight is absolutely about his development. He's fighting to protect the Earth now, which is a big change for him, but he's still Vegeta at the core. You kind of argued against yourself there by saying that they shouldn't go too far while also saying he didn't change that much.

It's a fighting series, and it's not like GT has a shortage of fights. You just don't need to have Vegeta shoved in to all of them. It just seems incredibly shallow to present anything not directly related to fighting as being boring.

No, I don't want a boring series, but pointless, poorly written fights and inconsistent development is a sure fire way to get one - ala Super.
No. He is still going on about not needing Goku’s help and handling it on his own. And wrong, I’m saying the writers behind GT wanted to front that Vegeta has changed then the Super 17 fight shown up and if you’re arguing backtracking and inconsistent development you got it right there in GT Vegeta.

Yeah and most of them are either stomp fights, crappy gimmick fights, and poorly choreographed ki blast fights, the only decent ones I can think of are Goku vs Ledgic and SSJ4 Goku vs Baby. And both aren’t even close to some of the best in Super. As far as the main plot, them developing as warriors and what they fight for should be the main focus, anything else would be more suited for fillers or mini-arcs.

Well geez the pot calling the kettle black because I see it all over GT if that’s what you’re looking for in a boring show, and Super had some pretty well written fights.

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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Post by Saiga » Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:41 pm

GT IS a boring show, I never said that it wasn't. But that doesn't mean that Super is much better - it may have some well choreograped fights but it has so much more boring or poorly written crap in there. It's also not pot calling the kettle black when I was responding to your origibal claim that GT was boring.

I don't actually like GT. I just think it did Vegeta's character better, it's one of the few things it actually did well.

The Super 17 fight isn't regression, it has never been Vegeta's character to wait for Goku so that is just one way he has still stayed unique. It's not like Super where he has regressed so badly that he goes back to calling himself the strongest in the universe.

And really, picking on Vegeta's moustache is silly. It's a gag scene, Supee Vegeta has had way more embarrassing gag scenes like that, such as being concerned over sucking on a pacifier. I don't have a problem with either of those but it's extremely hypocritical to only criticize one of them.
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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Post by Master Xar » Sat Jun 30, 2018 7:07 pm

Saiga wrote:GT IS a boring show, I never said that it wasn't. But that doesn't mean that Super is much better - it may have some well choreograped fights but it has so much more boring or poorly written crap in there. It's also not pot calling the kettle black when I was responding to your origibal claim that GT was boring.

I don't actually like GT. I just think it did Vegeta's character better, it's one of the few things it actually did well.

The Super 17 fight isn't regression, it has never been Vegeta's character to wait for Goku so that is just one way he has still stayed unique. It's not like Super where he has regressed so badly that he goes back to calling himself the strongest in the universe.

And really, picking on Vegeta's moustache is silly. It's a gag scene, Supee Vegeta has had way more embarrassing gag scenes like that, such as being concerned over sucking on a pacifier. I don't have a problem with either of those but it's extremely hypocritical to only criticize one of them.
You implied it was more boring. I honestly can’t find anything more boring than the first GT arc, that dumb game Goku had to play when he got lost in the dimensions in the Baby arc, fighting in Hell and against past villains in the GT arc that were weak as all hell, and over half the Shadow Dragons were lame nobodies Goku would waste at full power.

And I personally disagree, while Super Vegeta (no pun intended) had his fair share of problems (like not helping with the Spirit Bomb) people overblow his “regression” and fail to understand his development.

That goes against his Kid Buu fight where his entire purpose (and he himself acknowledged) was to hold off Buu long enough to wait for Goku to catch his second wind with SSJ3. So yes it is. Vegeta’s development if you look at his Final Flash scene, is that he is well aware he isn’t the strongest deep down, he is actually very self aware of his pride, he just doesn’t care.
He calls himself the strongest to hype himself up, he is anything but a defeatist and will not always acknowledge himself as second best. That’s not a winning attitude, especially for a fighter, if you always acknowledge yourself as inferior in something 24/7, you’ll soon find yourself giving up like many of Goku’s other friends in the pursuit of becoming a warrior and/or competing with Goku.

Difference with that gag in GT and the one in Super is all in the attitude and why he is doing it. Super Vegeta was forced into odd situations out of his control, he had to put the pacifier in his mouth or he’d cease to exist. GT Vegeta goes out of his way to make himself look like an ass, he actually thought the moustache was cool.

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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Post by Saiga » Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:11 am

Vegeta buying Goku time doesn't mean he's completely changed his tune. There's a difference between relying on Goku when he's their best best and waiting on him when he's not available.

For example, in the Namek arc Piccolo helps stall Freeza so Goku can charge the Genki Dama. Then in the next arc he decides to fuse with God to try and deal with the Androids/Cell himself instead of waiting for Goku to get better.

And no, I wasn't saying that Super was more boring than GT. Just that the method it has for fights makes it boring, so I wouldn't want to go with that method for handling its characters. GT's utilization of Vegeta would make for a much more interesting direction, if the rest of the show wasn't so crap.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!

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