What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

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Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

Post by sintzu » Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:51 am

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:Isn't that where Vegeta is at, at the start of the film though?
Yeah, and he'll most likely be there at the end as well.
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Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

Post by prince212 » Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:57 am

mute_proxy wrote:
Bergamo wrote:
mute_proxy wrote:The manga really blew it with Ultra Instinct. Goku had zero reason to transform compared to the anime :cry:
Because a spirit bomb made from the Genki of like 8 people should totally be the size of the one used to kill Buu. Not to mention that getting hit with a spirit bomb should totally give you the power of automatic dodging.
He was exhausted, and couldn't handle it himself. The struggle gave him the limit breaking transformation (which allowed him to use the UI technique), which later appeared only when he couldn't handle things on his own and was on brink of defeat. Disregarding the details of the genki, it makes a lot more sense that seeing the old man get a ring out, then be like, yep I broke through my limits and can use UI now because of that. That's as silly as Cabba turning SS1 because of mean words.
Its not because seeing a ring out , it’s because an explanation-encourage about what to do an how , related to the dodge technique.
Nothing of that was done in the anime
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Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

Post by Kaiosama » Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:09 pm

Vegeta's destiny is to always be one step behind Goku. This will never change. It's what Toriyama and the writers want, plus Goku is by far the most popular character over there, so if Vegeta got anything that would let him shine over Goku in the movie, the outrage would be far worse than ours with Master Roshi being able to dodge Jiren's attacks or Gohan being able to hang with Kefla.

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Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

Post by Bergamo » Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:14 pm

mute_proxy wrote:
Bergamo wrote:
mute_proxy wrote:The manga really blew it with Ultra Instinct. Goku had zero reason to transform compared to the anime :cry:
Because a spirit bomb made from the Genki of like 8 people should totally be the size of the one used to kill Buu. Not to mention that getting hit with a spirit bomb should totally give you the power of automatic dodging.
He was exhausted, and couldn't handle it himself. The struggle gave him the limit breaking transformation (which allowed him to use the UI technique), which later appeared only when he couldn't handle things on his own and was on brink of defeat. Disregarding the details of the genki, it makes a lot more sense that seeing the old man get a ring out, then be like, yep I broke through my limits and can use UI now because of that. That's as silly as Cabba turning SS1 because of mean words.
Yeah that doesn't make any sense. Goku learning UI from seeing someone use UI has precedence. There is still no correlation between willpower and autododge.
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Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

Post by TheShadowEmperor8055 » Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:43 pm

Bergamo wrote:
mute_proxy wrote:
Bergamo wrote: Because a spirit bomb made from the Genki of like 8 people should totally be the size of the one used to kill Buu. Not to mention that getting hit with a spirit bomb should totally give you the power of automatic dodging.
He was exhausted, and couldn't handle it himself. The struggle gave him the limit breaking transformation (which allowed him to use the UI technique), which later appeared only when he couldn't handle things on his own and was on brink of defeat. Disregarding the details of the genki, it makes a lot more sense that seeing the old man get a ring out, then be like, yep I broke through my limits and can use UI now because of that. That's as silly as Cabba turning SS1 because of mean words.
Yeah that doesn't make any sense. Goku learning UI from seeing someone use UI has precedence. There is still no correlation between willpower and autododge.
He saw Whis using UI in the anime just as he saw Beerus doing so in the manga.

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Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

Post by Cetra » Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:47 pm

I am even more mad about the Kafla vs Gohan thing. Kafla in the anime was used in a way in which I actually wished that she was at least the penultimate boss. In the manga she was totally underutilized. We get it, Gohan is strong. No need to waste a fusion in such a non-elegant way.

Right now the manga did virtually nothing I prefer over the anime in terms of making the Tournament of Power.
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Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

Post by ricky84 » Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:08 pm

Kaiosama wrote:Vegeta's destiny is to always be one step behind Goku. This will never change. It's what Toriyama and the writers want, plus Goku is by far the most popular character over there, so if Vegeta got anything that would let him shine over Goku in the movie, the outrage would be far worse than ours with Master Roshi being able to dodge Jiren's attacks or Gohan being able to hang with Kefla.
The reception in Japan to Vegeta surpassing Goku in Battle of Gods and beating Goku Black was near-completely positive.
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Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

Post by Nickolaidas » Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:16 pm

ricky84 wrote:
Kaiosama wrote:Vegeta's destiny is to always be one step behind Goku. This will never change. It's what Toriyama and the writers want, plus Goku is by far the most popular character over there, so if Vegeta got anything that would let him shine over Goku in the movie, the outrage would be far worse than ours with Master Roshi being able to dodge Jiren's attacks or Gohan being able to hang with Kefla.
The reception in Japan to Vegeta surpassing Goku in Battle of Gods and beating Goku Black was near-completely positive.
You know what the Vegeta/Goku relationship reminds me of? Duffy Duck and Bugs Bunny - where the fans liked Duffy more than Bugs but the creators trolled them hard by always humiliating him and having him focused on becoming #1 - while Bugs casually would claim the spot. I think the creators do the same thing by trolling the fandom making Vegeta always fail while Goku succeeding in this stead. Even in RoF where Vegeta won, he still managed to lose - it was mind boggling.

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Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

Post by ricky84 » Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:35 pm

Nickolaidas wrote:
ricky84 wrote:
Kaiosama wrote:Vegeta's destiny is to always be one step behind Goku. This will never change. It's what Toriyama and the writers want, plus Goku is by far the most popular character over there, so if Vegeta got anything that would let him shine over Goku in the movie, the outrage would be far worse than ours with Master Roshi being able to dodge Jiren's attacks or Gohan being able to hang with Kefla.
The reception in Japan to Vegeta surpassing Goku in Battle of Gods and beating Goku Black was near-completely positive.
You know what the Vegeta/Goku relationship reminds me of? Duffy Duck and Bugs Bunny - where the fans liked Duffy more than Bugs but the creators trolled them hard by always humiliating him and having him focused on becoming #1 - while Bugs casually would claim the spot. I think the creators do the same thing by trolling the fandom making Vegeta always fail while Goku succeeding in this stead. Even in RoF where Vegeta won, he still managed to lose - it was mind boggling.
Goku didn't succeed against Beerus, needed a deus-ex-machina to get rid of Golden Freeza, didn't succeed against Hit (twice), didn't succeed against Black nor Zamasu and didn't succeed (alone) against Jiren. Yet you still complain about Goku getting all the glory smh. This fandom :roll:
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Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

Post by prince212 » Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:39 pm

Cetra wrote:I am even more mad about the Kafla vs Gohan thing. Kafla in the anime was used in a way in which I actually wished that she was at least the penultimate boss. In the manga she was totally underutilized. We get it, Gohan is strong. No need to waste a fusion in such a non-elegant way.
I don’t have big feelings towards kafla in both anime-manga . I liked the before fusion thing in the manga.
What’s the problem of showing that gohan is strong ? He’s not my favorite character but his manga performance was more in line with all that he represent in this series .
Also kafla vs gohan worked better than kafla vs goku , the first was a fight , the second was a teacher-student lesson .
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

Post by Nickolaidas » Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:55 pm

ricky84 wrote:Goku didn't succeed against Beerus
Neither did Vegeta.
ricky84 wrote:needed a deus-ex-machina to get rid of Golden Freeza
As also did Vegeta in order not to die.
ricky84 wrote:didn't succeed against Hit (twice)
Neither did Vegeta.
ricky84 wrote:didn't succeed against Black nor Zamasu
Neither did Vegeta. Black used the power of rage and mopped the floor with him.
ricky84 wrote:didn't succeed (alone) against Jiren.
Neither did Vegeta.

The point is to see how Vegeta fared against an opponent when compared with Goku.
Just to be clear, I'm not a Vegeta fan. I'm just calling a spade a spade.

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Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

Post by Pannaliciour » Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:56 pm

prince212 wrote:
Cetra wrote:I am even more mad about the Kafla vs Gohan thing. Kafla in the anime was used in a way in which I actually wished that she was at least the penultimate boss. In the manga she was totally underutilized. We get it, Gohan is strong. No need to waste a fusion in such a non-elegant way.
I don’t have big feelings towards kafla in both anime-manga . I liked the before fusion thing in the manga.
What’s the problem of showing that gohan is strong ? He’s not my favorite character but his manga performance was more in line with all that he represent in this series .
Also kafla vs gohan worked better than kafla vs goku , the first was a fight , the second was a teacher-student lesson .
What fight? Most of the fight was off panel

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Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

Post by Miracles » Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:05 pm

Cetra wrote:I am even more mad about the Kafla vs Gohan thing. Kafla in the anime was used in a way in which I actually wished that she was at least the penultimate boss. In the manga she was totally underutilized. We get it, Gohan is strong. No need to waste a fusion in such a non-elegant way.

Right now the manga did virtually nothing I prefer over the anime in terms of making the Tournament of Power.
Yeah, so far I am waiting for a reasonable explanation from the manga as to why Gohan is fighting equally with a Potara fusion. There has got to be.

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Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

Post by prince212 » Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:12 pm

Pannaliciour wrote:
prince212 wrote:
Cetra wrote:I am even more mad about the Kafla vs Gohan thing. Kafla in the anime was used in a way in which I actually wished that she was at least the penultimate boss. In the manga she was totally underutilized. We get it, Gohan is strong. No need to waste a fusion in such a non-elegant way.
I don’t have big feelings towards kafla in both anime-manga . I liked the before fusion thing in the manga.
What’s the problem of showing that gohan is strong ? He’s not my favorite character but his manga performance was more in line with all that he represent in this series .
Also kafla vs gohan worked better than kafla vs goku , the first was a fight , the second was a teacher-student lesson .
What fight? Most of the fight was off panel
You are right , just 7 pages of fight and 2 of talk , Anyways I rather quality to quantity. In my unpopular opinion kafla vs goku was not a fight , was a sensei-student lesson non appropriate in a survival tournament. the end of the fight-lesson was great , one of the best moments of t.o.p anime .
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

Post by Simere » Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:15 pm

prince212 wrote:
Pannaliciour wrote:
prince212 wrote: I don’t have big feelings towards kafla in both anime-manga . I liked the before fusion thing in the manga.
What’s the problem of showing that gohan is strong ? He’s not my favorite character but his manga performance was more in line with all that he represent in this series .
Also kafla vs gohan worked better than kafla vs goku , the first was a fight , the second was a teacher-student lesson .
What fight? Most of the fight was off panel
You are right , just 7 pages of fight and 2 of talk , Anyways I rather quality to quantity. In my unpopular opinion kafla vs goku was not a fight , was a sensei-student lesson non appropriate in a survival tournament. the end of the fight-lesson was great , one of the best moments of t.o.p anime .
Kafla is not Caulifla; Goku didn't try to teach Kafla anything.

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Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

Post by Miracles » Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:21 pm

Well it was just said that it was not Kaioken shown this chapter. No Kaioken in the manga.
Last edited by Miracles on Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

Post by prince212 » Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:33 pm

Simere wrote:
prince212 wrote:
Pannaliciour wrote: What fight? Most of the fight was off panel
You are right , just 7 pages of fight and 2 of talk , Anyways I rather quality to quantity. In my unpopular opinion kafla vs goku was not a fight , was a sensei-student lesson non appropriate in a survival tournament. the end of the fight-lesson was great , one of the best moments of t.o.p anime .
Kafla is not Caulifla; Goku didn't try to teach Kafla anything.
I know , but for some reason , kafla has same personality as Caulifla and gokus behaviur didn’t change that much neither so I keep on blaming the teaching stuff . My bad
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Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:16 pm

Manga ToP is bad (mainly because there's no actual story here).

Anime ToP is unwatchable.
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dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
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Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

Post by ricky84 » Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:25 pm

Nickolaidas wrote:
ricky84 wrote:Goku didn't succeed against Beerus
Neither did Vegeta.
ricky84 wrote:needed a deus-ex-machina to get rid of Golden Freeza
As also did Vegeta in order not to die.
ricky84 wrote:didn't succeed against Hit (twice)
Neither did Vegeta.
ricky84 wrote:didn't succeed against Black nor Zamasu
Neither did Vegeta. Black used the power of rage and mopped the floor with him.
ricky84 wrote:didn't succeed (alone) against Jiren.
Neither did Vegeta.

The point is to see how Vegeta fared against an opponent when compared with Goku.
Just to be clear, I'm not a Vegeta fan. I'm just calling a spade a spade.
1. The point was that he did better than SSJ3 Goku and Mystic Gohan against Beerus, which debunks yours.

2. The entire film was full of bad writing twist like Goku getting owned by a laser.

3. Vegeta only lost because of bad luck. He had no idea about Time skip and Goku himself said to Jaco that he would have lost just as badly as Vegeta if he fought first. And he never got a rematch either.

4. You are clearly wrong here and being biased. After Vegeta beat down Black (which the real Goku never did), all Black did was surround him and Goku with clones. Black never directly fought anyone again before fusing with Future Zamasu, meaning Vegeta did significantly better than Goku in that arc.

5. Again, the point was that he managed to do way better with just SSB against Jiren than Kaiokenx20 Goku and Hit did in episode 122. Debunking your complaints again.

The only thing you made clear is how you're unwilling to see facts that go against your biases.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

Post by Nickolaidas » Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:39 pm

ricky84 wrote: 1. The point was that he did better than SSJ3 Goku and Mystic Gohan against Beerus, which debunks yours.

2. The entire film was full of bad writing twist like Goku getting owned by a laser.

3. Vegeta only lost because of bad luck. He had no idea about Time skip and Goku himself said to Jaco that he would have lost just as badly as Vegeta if he fought first. And he never got a rematch either.

4. You are clearly wrong here and being biased. After Vegeta beat down Black (which the real Goku never did), all Black did was surround him and Goku with clones. Black never directly fought anyone again before fusing with Future Zamasu, meaning Vegeta did significantly better than Goku in that arc.

5. Again, the point was that he managed to do way better with just SSB against Jiren than Kaiokenx20 Goku and Hit did in episode 122. Debunking your complaints again.

The only thing you made clear is how you're unwilling to see facts that go against your biases.
1. It doesn't matter if he fared better than SSJ3 Goku - did he fare better than GOKU in the movie? Who was the one who fought Beerus for tens of minutes? Who was the one who fought for mere seconds? Goku. Fared. Better. Against. Beerus.

2. Riiight. Goku being caught off-guard by a laser is bad writing. SSJ3 Goku faring worse than SSJ2MYBULMA Vegeta isn't bad writing, it's a fact. And you have the gall to talk to me about bias?


3. Bad luck? Hit was clearly the superior fighter. And while I admit that Goku was informed of the Time Skip, again, the fact remains that he fared better than Vegeta. As for the 'I would've fared no better than Vegeta' line, that's just the writers throwing Vegeta fanboys a bone - Goku did the same thing back in the Buu saga concerning fat Buu and what happens when he DOES fight him? Yup, turns SSJ3 and gives Vegeta a run for his money.

4. Vegeta tells Black that he miscalculated and beats the living snot out of him. Black figures out about the power of rage, uses it and regains the upper hand. How did Vegeta defeat Black exactly? Black was losing and figured out how to halt Vegeta's advance. Vegeta didn't win. (Unless you're talking about Manga Vegeta? In that case, I haven't read the issues, I'm talking about the anime)


5. AGAIN, Goku fared better against Jiren and acquired a power Vegeta has yet to possess - you are claiming that Vegeta is stronger than Goku by using terms like 'bad luck' or 'bad writing' whenever it's clear he's the worse fighter, and you use scenes of temporary rage boosts, epiphanies and shameless fan service as evidence that Vegeta is stronger than Goku. You're basically telling me that Namek Saga Gohan is stronger than Namek Saga Vegeta because he pummeled 2nd Frieza due to rage while Vegeta couldn't even make a dent on the tyrant. Guess what? That's just plain wrong.


Ask yourself this (and this is the last time I get involved in this conversation since we're both too stubborn to agree to disagree): If Vegeta is stronger than Goku in the ToP why is he 'desperately trying to catch up' in the beginning of the Broly movie?

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