What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

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Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

Post by ricky84 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:24 am

Nickolaidas wrote:
ricky84 wrote: 1. The point was that he did better than SSJ3 Goku and Mystic Gohan against Beerus, which debunks yours.

2. The entire film was full of bad writing twist like Goku getting owned by a laser.

3. Vegeta only lost because of bad luck. He had no idea about Time skip and Goku himself said to Jaco that he would have lost just as badly as Vegeta if he fought first. And he never got a rematch either.

4. You are clearly wrong here and being biased. After Vegeta beat down Black (which the real Goku never did), all Black did was surround him and Goku with clones. Black never directly fought anyone again before fusing with Future Zamasu, meaning Vegeta did significantly better than Goku in that arc.

5. Again, the point was that he managed to do way better with just SSB against Jiren than Kaiokenx20 Goku and Hit did in episode 122. Debunking your complaints again.

The only thing you made clear is how you're unwilling to see facts that go against your biases.
1. It doesn't matter if he fared better than SSJ3 Goku - did he fare better than GOKU in the movie? Who was the one who fought Beerus for tens of minutes? Who was the one who fought for mere seconds? Goku. Fared. Better. Against. Beerus.

2. Riiight. Goku being caught off-guard by a laser is bad writing. SSJ3 Goku faring worse than SSJ2MYBULMA Vegeta isn't bad writing, it's a fact. And you have the gall to talk to me about bias?


3. Bad luck? Hit was clearly the superior fighter. And while I admit that Goku was informed of the Time Skip, again, the fact remains that he fared better than Vegeta. As for the 'I would've fared no better than Vegeta' line, that's just the writers throwing Vegeta fanboys a bone - Goku did the same thing back in the Buu saga concerning fat Buu and what happens when he DOES fight him? Yup, turns SSJ3 and gives Vegeta a run for his money.

4. Vegeta tells Black that he miscalculated and beats the living snot out of him. Black figures out about the power of rage, uses it and regains the upper hand. How did Vegeta defeat Black exactly? Black was losing and figured out how to halt Vegeta's advance. Vegeta didn't win. (Unless you're talking about Manga Vegeta? In that case, I haven't read the issues, I'm talking about the anime)


5. AGAIN, Goku fared better against Jiren and acquired a power Vegeta has yet to possess - you are claiming that Vegeta is stronger than Goku by using terms like 'bad luck' or 'bad writing' whenever it's clear he's the worse fighter, and you use scenes of temporary rage boosts, epiphanies and shameless fan service as evidence that Vegeta is stronger than Goku. You're basically telling me that Namek Saga Gohan is stronger than Namek Saga Vegeta because he pummeled 2nd Frieza due to rage while Vegeta couldn't even make a dent on the tyrant. Guess what? That's just plain wrong.


Ask yourself this (and this is the last time I get involved in this conversation since we're both too stubborn to agree to disagree): If Vegeta is stronger than Goku in the ToP why is he 'desperately trying to catch up' in the beginning of the Broly movie?
1. He only fared better because he got an easy power up with the God ritual (which even Goku himself was unsatisfied with). You fail here.

2. Emotion based power boost are thing in DB since the begininng. Becoming SSJ for the first time itself was the biggest example. You just exposed yourself as a biased, delusional Vegeta hater.

3. False analogy with the Buu saga (he never said anything about doing worse against Buu if he fought first. You are clearly reaching just to hate). What Goku said about what would happen if he fought first is a obvious fact, as proven when Hit one shots and kills Goku in their first rematch and as proven in the ToP when SSBKK Goku does worse than Vegeta against Jiren.

4. Now you just being a delusional hater :roll: . Black never directly fought anyone after he got beaten down by Vegeta. Black even clearly admitted his loss to Vegeta as he was about to pull out his scythe. It is willful ignorance at its worst to say Vegeta didn't win against Black. That's just as dumb as saying MUI Goku lose to Jiren because he didn't ring him out smh.

5. Goku only fared better because he got superior power-up. Vegeta in 122 managed to out perform Goku using a transformation that is weaker than KKx20, so there is no way you can argue that Goku is the way better fighter (despite never actually beating him in a one-on-one lmao) based on your fallacies.

Those "epiphanies and shameless fan service" scenes all explicitly state that he surpassed Goku at those times (and his boost against Beerus was permanent in the Super version of BoG, which you keep denying).

"You're basically telling me that Namek Saga Gohan is stronger than Namek Saga Vegeta because he pummeled 2nd Frieza due to rage while Vegeta couldn't even make a dent on the tyrant."

Gohan actually was stronger than Vegeta at that point until Krillin gave him another zenkai. You just debunked yourself :lol:

" If Vegeta is stronger than Goku in the ToP why is he 'desperately trying to catch up' in the beginning of the Broly movie?"

1. I said he was stronger than KKx20 in 122, not UI Goku (learn how to read)
2. Because Goku has MUI, that's what he needs to catch up to. Common sense bro
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Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:48 am

After Vegeta beat down Black (which the real Goku never did), all Black did was surround him and Goku with clones. Black never directly fought anyone again before fusing with Future Zamasu, meaning Vegeta did significantly better than Goku in that arc.
I would say that this is an understatement of Goku Black's feat. He didn't just surround the two of them with clones who could damage Goku and Vegeta (so they were not very weak) and regenerate instantly. He also managed to tear a rift in the very fabric of reality itself.

But if Black were weaker than Vegeta, why did he send Future Zamasu to kill Trunks, Bulma and Mai so that Vegeta could get stronger due to the power of his anger? If he were still weaker than Vegeta, he wouldn't need such a ploy to be beaten by Vegeta. Black also expanded his power beyond his own comprehension, even though he was a fighting genius, he couldn't understand how much more powerful he had become.

Lastly, I would argue that Goku did better than Vegeta in that arc, considering that he managed to single-handedly overpower Fused Zamasu (that episode, personally, had garbage powerscaling), and inflicted heavy damage upon his mortal half. Some speculate that Goku "killed" Goku Black when he hit Fused Zamasu with the Kamehameha, hence why the mortal half of Fused Zamasu's face had been heavily damaged.
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Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:48 pm

Goku Black was confirmed as the strongest non fused character by Gowasu in E65 so even without the clones, Vegeta would have lost.

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Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

Post by ricky84 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:46 pm

ZombieVito wrote:Goku Black was confirmed as the strongest non fused character by Gowasu in E65 so even without the clones, Vegeta would have lost.
He only became the strongest non-fused character once he pulled out the scythe. Before that he was obviously weaker.
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Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:47 pm

ricky84 wrote: He only became the strongest non-fused character once he pulled out the scythe. Before that he was obviously weaker.
Well, yeah. I didn't think that was needed to be said.

He himself says he found the way to get stronger and then pulls the scythe. The only reason he was playing around with Goku and Vegeta is so that they become stronger so he can become stronger as well.

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Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

Post by OLKv3 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:30 am

Chapter's out in English
It's a shame, the fighting in this chapter was pretty well drawn, too bad there was so little of it.
Omen Goku looks so weird here

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Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

Post by Pannaliciour » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:20 am

Can the official manga toppic reopen now?

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Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

Post by sintzu » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:35 am

I liked the change Toyotaro made in regard to Gohan being the one who takes Kefla down but why was the fight off screen ? this could've easily been an entire chapter dedicated to that. Roshi being abe to dodge Jiren is BS but I understand where it's coming from. I'm not a fan of how UI was introduced as in the anime it got 2 big fights before Goku mastered it while here it seems like he'll master it after slightly tapping into it. Overall, the manga keeps going down hill which is a shame cause everything before the actual tournament was well done.
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Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

Post by Bullza » Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:49 am

Doesn't look like Goku used Kaioken then after all?

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Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

Post by OLKv3 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:54 am

Pannaliciour wrote:Can the official manga toppic reopen now?
Closing the thread every month is a failed plan, the discussion just spread to other multiple threads. Might as well keep it contained in the manga thread

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Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

Post by mute_proxy » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:01 am

With a translation and more context, the events leading to UI in the manga werent half bad :shh:

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Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

Post by ekrolo2 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:06 am

I like UI being contextualized as a mental/personality thing over a power based one, makes it feel more special.
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Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

Post by sintzu » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:40 am

Bullza wrote:Doesn't look like Goku used Kaioken then after all?
I think Krillin said he did, at least that's what it looks like in Viz's translation.
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Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

Post by Bullza » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:43 am

sintzu wrote:I think Krillin said he did, at least that's what it looks like in Viz's translation.
Well he says that but then at the same time Goku never actually said Kaioken and Tien said "Is it the same principle as Kaioken?".

So I'm not really sure.

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Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

Post by ekrolo2 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:48 am

Bullza wrote:
sintzu wrote:I think Krillin said he did, at least that's what it looks like in Viz's translation.
Well he says that but then at the same time Goku never actually said Kaioken and Tien said "Is it the same principle as Kaioken?".

So I'm not really sure.
It's like KK in that he tried to forcibly multiply his power but we've seen characters do this without KK. Jiren even compares it to what Kale did. Power stressed is a more accurate term.
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Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:20 am

sintzu wrote:I liked the change Toyotaro made in regard to Gohan being the one who takes Kefla down but why was the fight off screen ? this could've easily been an entire chapter dedicated to that. Roshi being abe to dodge Jiren is BS but I understand where it's coming from. I'm not a fan of how UI was introduced as in the anime it got 2 big fights before Goku mastered it while here it seems like he'll master it after slightly tapping into it. Overall, the manga keeps going down hill which is a shame cause everything before the actual tournament was well done.
I think he's rushing because he wants to get to the movie stuff. We have 3 more chapters until December. It's gonna be a full on rush, I'd expect more off panel fights etc.

Toyotaro's lack of creativeness is really showing here. Whether people like them or not can't deny Toei did a lot of creative things. I think this arc plays to his weaknesses more. He still has a long way to go.

Now we know his manga is gonna be different for Broly it's probably gonna be for the worse.

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Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

Post by OhHiRenan » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:39 am

Gohan vs Kafla is the only part of the arc I’d call legitimately rushed after this chapter. It’s masked well by Toyotaro using the structure of the chapter to show multiple fights going on at once, and it works in that context, but the build up for this fight, along with the bits we got of it, clearly should have lended itself to much more.

The rest of the chapter was solid, though, and Roshi was used far better here than he was in the anime. I’m all about the series zoning in on what it means to be a martial artist, especially if it means Goku does some self reflecting. Obviously, Ultra Instinct wasn’t as exciting here as it was in the anime- that being a spectacle event and all- but I can still appreciate what Toyotaro went for and I feel he pulled it off.
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Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

Post by sintzu » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:08 am

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:I think he's rushing because he wants to get to the movie stuff.

Whether people like them or not can't deny Toei did a lot of creative things.

Now we know his manga is gonna be different for Broly it's probably gonna be for the worse.
You're probably right and that's the biggest mistake he's done. The story should progress and end on its own time, not based on when something else is about to release.

Toei by far did a better job. Despite the anime's issues at least it felt like a tournament and there were actual fights.

With the movie being shorter I'm hoping he won't have to rush things like he's doing now. Hopefully it can be something like his Black arc.
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Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:46 pm

I thought turning Goku into a novice in martial arts just make Roshi look more competent in battle was horrific character writing.

I thought the implantation of "skill > power" through Roshi was much more sloppily handled in the manga.

Gohan didn't get a truly satisfying resolution to his preparation before the Tournament Of Power.

The debut of Ultra Instinct was also incredibly anticlimactic in the manga.

Jiren appears a much less of threat in battle in the manga.

And the pacing is still terribly rushed.

Yeah... not good at all.

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Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

Post by prince212 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:08 pm

Yeap the pacing is rushed... but who wants this arc to be extended to 2019 ?
Manga is rushed, anime was extremely slow , and on t.o.p of that .. the idea of 80 fighters in the same arena was a big whale impossible to catch with a fishing rod . Just fights without a decent plot that allows surprises can’t never make a top arc .
I enjoyed the anime an I’m enjoying the manga , but I can’t wait to be over with this and go to new fresh arcs
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