What I think made the Future Trunks arc ending bad

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What I think made the Future Trunks arc ending bad

Post by Master Xar » Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:08 am

After looking at the Eng Dub ending of the arc it finally clicked as I was watching it. It wasn’t the grim or darkness. It wasn’t Deus Ex Machina (because objectively it was a Chekhov’s gun that Zeno Button) it wasn’t the alternate timeline Trunks went to. It’s not the Sword of Hope Trunks pulled. No...

It was that freaking Tone Shift after they got back from the timeline. Look at how they are after that whole thing... no one treats the situation as it should. They failed. Hard. the entire point of a bad or bittersweet ending, is that it’s a failure.

When we as people lose or have been defeated, we have some sort of regret or doubt, maybe even guilt. People are supposed to self-reflect and grow from our failures, feel frustrated or angry with ourselves to some degree, that maybe if we’d have done something different this wouldn’t have happened. There is a POINT to loss and I think whoever was scripting and directing this last episode missed that so hard that it’s not even funny.

They ALMOST had it, had they just slowed the pacing of the ending down, and had the characters treating the situation like they should it would’ve been perfect, and they missed SO many glorious opportunities.

This should have been the heights of Trunks’ frustration with himself, of his own weakness and inability to protect his timeline. He should have raged against the heavens that very moment. This had potential to be the ANGRIEST a character has ever been in the series, this had SO much potential to be THE rage and eventually his anger dies down to tears and deep regret.

Mai should have been distraught like she was when Zamasu was in the sky if not more so. Goku and Roshi should been eaten up with guilt and regret for how they didn’t take the situation seriously and fumbled. Several of the other Z Fighters (especially Gohan) should have been upset or ashamed at their own strength or unwillingness to help in the future timeline. Vegeta SHOULD have been disappointed in his own strength that it wasn’t enough to help his son when he needed it most.

AND as a bonus... Kid Trunks could’ve had a big chance to witness all this happening and this could’ve been the fire lighted under his ass. He SHOULD have looked at Future Trunks and how hard he worked, how he trained, how dedicated he was to vowing to protect his world at all costs... and count. his. blessings. He should have looked at him as a tragedy, that his complacency and lack of will to become strong could lead him to ruin, as Future Trunks’ hard work had still lead to his failure, and look inward at himself.

But no... everyone treats it like some sort of failed wedding or party that got too wild rather than the fact that an entire WORLD of people just ceased to exist. Like WHAT!? No one should be happy here. At all. This should’ve been something that haunted those involved for the rest of their lives, and those close to them to look deep into themselves.

God it was such an astounding waste of potential. This could’ve been the most heartfelt and catching ending in Dragonball, something that clicked well with not only the audience, but the characters, EVERYONE could have developed greatly in this scenario. Literally EVERY piece was there and the one directing and scripting the end kicks the whole board away.

I have never seen such a MASSIVE BOTCH in a long time. It’s astonishing. It’s like watching baseball and the bases are loaded on the 9th inning and an outfielder fumbles the outing catch and proceeds to trip over his own feet until everyone makes it to home base.

That’s how bad it was. My GOD looking back on it now it is frustrating to look at. I have no idea why whoever was behind this insisted that everyone be all smiles, ice cream, and fucking rainbow sparkles after this whole thing at the table eating. I just hope whoever did somehow learns and reflects on this, or just stays away from the endings and tone-heavy scenes because... to be polite...

They need work...

It just goes to show that one misstep or person’s directing decision and tone can ruin an entire ending and make the entire arc almost completely pointless...



That concludes my argument for why it’s so bad. Thank you for reading.

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Re: I figured out what made the FT arc ending so bad. (IMPORTANT READ)

Post by emperior » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:11 am

Great post, I agree with it. Sure, it was hard to deal with Zamasu's overpowered immortality, but it also felt exactly as if they didn't care much about the extreme consequences of the battle.
At least Trunks felt very sad about the whole situation and how he wasn't able to save his world, and him creating a new timeline just to go back and see his future comrades once again with Mai could be seen as their way to cope with everything that happened.
But Goku and Vegeta... they didn't give a fuck at all. They are truly alien monsters.
I thought Vegeta got a little more human by staying on Earth but that's not really the case. If anything, he should have at least felt some remorse over not being able to end Goku Black's life, and Goku too should beat his head for not remembering about the Mafuuba seal and even forgetting the jar in the time machine. There was actually a way to defeat Zamasu but Goku and Roshi fucked it up.
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Re: I figured out what made the FT arc ending so bad. (IMPORTANT READ)

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:13 am

It was that freaking Tone Shift after they got back from the timeline. Look at how they are after that whole thing... no one treats the situation as it should. They failed. Hard. the entire point of a bad or bittersweet ending, is that it’s a failure.
To be fair, it is much better than in the manga. In the manga, Trunks and Mai don't even show moments of sadness towards the erasure of their timeline. It's like it literally never happened. Whereas in the anime Future Trunks cried towards the end and even remarked clearly to the present counterpart of his tragically useless mentor that he failed to protect his timeline. Zamasu was erased from existence but had the last laugh because if he had to die, he made sure that everyone would die along with him.
When we as people lose or have been defeated, we have some sort of regret or doubt, maybe even guilt. People are supposed to self-reflect and grow from our failures, feel frustrated or angry with ourselves to some degree, that maybe if we’d have done something different this wouldn’t have happened. There is a POINT to loss and I think whoever was scripting and directing this last episode missed that so hard that it’s not even funny.
Trunks does aknowledge that it is his fault if all of this started. If Zamasu invaded Earth, if the Project Zero Mortals was born in the first place. He just didn't care. He accepted that he sinned, but he realized that he had no other choice, since it was either flee to the past or be killed by the twisted Androids.
They ALMOST had it, had they just slowed the pacing of the ending down, and had the characters treating the situation like they should it would’ve been perfect, and they missed SO many glorious opportunities.
That they rushed the ending, Is obvious. And they started doing that since episode 65.

Episode 65 ----> Fused Zamasu stomps the protagonists, Goku and Vegeta retaliate, Fused Zamasu stomps them again, Trunks jumps into the fight, Father-Son Galick Gun, Goku vs. Fused Zamasu beam struggle.

Episode 66 ----> Goku defeatseFused Zamasu, Fused Zamasu loses his shit, Vegito vs. Fused Zamasu, Trunks kills Fused Zamasu with the sword of friendship and love.

Episode 67 ----> Zamasu's spirit becomes the Multiverse and kills everyone, the good guys need Zeno's help, Zeno erases the timeline (meanwhile half the episode is already gone), the protagonists return to the past then go back to the future to bring Future Zeno to Present Zeno, Whis explains that stuff about multiple timelines, and Trunks finally says goodbye and leaves the show.

See? Too much stuff going on in just three episodes. You cannot have all these battles and events happen in just three episodes. At least 5 or 6 episode are necessary, heck I would have dedicated an entire episode to Vegito vs. Zamasu and to Zamasu becoming the Multiverse and killing everyone. These are turning points in the arc that can't be shown in just 10 minutes.
Mai should have been distraught like she was when Zamasu was in the sky if not more so.
The stupid mortal did try to kill the Multiverse using a few bullets and even used obscene language to try and somehow damage Zamasu. As if a God cared if a lowly mortal told him that he is a "Son of a bitch". These guys need to learn that Shinjin don't have parents, they are (literally) born from fruits.

Ultimately, You are right. The concept of this ending was very, very good. Too many times have the protagonists relied on the Dragon Balls to fix everything, but what if they met a villain who was smart enough to deprive the protagonists of this extremely useful tool? The damage brought by Zamasu was permanent. This ending also showed that bad and unpredictable things do happen. Tragedies do happen. There isn't always a happy ending. Trunks and his friends were all rejoicing that Zamasu was gone, that the nightmare was finally over, but they were all deceived. Zamasu was greatly humiliated, scorned, but not vanquished.

My greatest gripe with it is that Trunks and Mai should rejoice that they spend the rest of their mortal lives in an alternate future timeline that is set before Project Zero Mortals truly started. Why should they be happy? The Future Bulma, Future Yajirobe, kids, survivors, the souls of Future Goku/Gohan/Vegeta/Piccolo/etc., You know, the people they were actually meant to defend, have all been erased from existence. If I were Trunks, I would have remained in the Present timeline, instead of spending the rest of my days in a world where every single person I meet will remind me not only of my trauma, but of my great failure to defend the ones I loved.

It seems that Mai and Gowasu were the only ones who took this tragedy seriously. Mai litereally broke down in tears and desperately tried to kill the Multiverse with bullets. I will appreciate the effort. I was somewhat touched by her speech about those people who were just innocents people trying to survive and didn't deserve that gruesome fate. And Gowasu was deeply shocked and regretful for what Zamasu did. He even apologized to Beerus for all the trouble he caused, to which Beerus replied that perhaps he should use his divine wisdom to choose his apprentice more carefully. Later on, Gowasu aknowledged that he too played a part in forging that new Time ring, and that he failed Zamasu. They both did. Gowasu failed Zamasu because he was so foolish and couldn't see the gravity of the situation, and also brought Zamasu to a terrible planet that barely made any progress in centuries. Zamasu failed himself because his divine willpower was not strong enough to resist the temptation for righteous bloodshed and the call for "divine justice".
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Re: I figured out what made the FT arc ending so bad. (IMPORTANT READ)

Post by Master Xar » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:48 am

Oh don’t get me started on the manga. Trunks has the DUMBEST smile on his face, O don’t think either of them even frowned... and this is after the anime’s ending and he somehow makes it even worse...

Whew boy if this is Toriyama’s successor outside of his art Dragonball ain’t lasting long after he is done if he cannot catch this bad storytelling.

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Re: What I think made the Future Trunks arc ending bad

Post by Gligarman » Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:02 pm

My problem with the Future Trunks arc is the fact that if the Zen-Ohs had been introduced as twins from the start, you could have removed this entire arc with no consequences.
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Re: What I think made the Future Trunks arc ending bad

Post by Master Xar » Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:28 pm

Gligarman wrote:My problem with the Future Trunks arc is the fact that if the Zen-Oh's had been introduced as twins from the start, you could have removed this entire arc with no consequences.
And it could’ve not been had the characters acted like this tragedy like it was a tragedy those kids, the militia, Android 8, and countless other innocents not even involved just ceased to exist.

Like I said this could have been a massive turning point or lesson learned from every person involved, Goku and Roshi would be far more careful and serious when it comes to these situations, Vegeta, Gohan and the others would have far more motivation to train and fight, some far more than others, Trunks and Mai have plenty of directions to go in their development.

This was a potentially massive turning point and they royally screwed it.

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Re: What I think made the Future Trunks arc ending bad

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:33 pm

While I'm of those people that liked the sombre ending of the Future Trunks, I do have to admit the tone shift was a bit jarring. But Dragon Ball is not the kind of story that spend time angsting over events, regardless of how tragic they may, longer than they should be.

Whenever a great tragedy happens in Dragon Ball, the cast react to it at that time, stoically move on and then consider what to next, while following the unspoken mantra of Dragon Ball:Always look on the bright side of life...

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Re: What I think made the Future Trunks arc ending bad

Post by Miracles » Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:11 pm

Why would they be angry and sad about an erased timeline that has the same people? Trunks and Mai are going to see themselves there too. It's not meant to elicit such emotion with that kind of safety valve.
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Re: What I think made the Future Trunks arc ending bad

Post by Master Xar » Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:06 pm

Miracles wrote:Why would they be angry and sad about an erased timeline that has the same people? Trunks and Mai are going to see themselves there too. It's not meant to elicit such emotion with that kind of safety valve.
This was more before Whis comes in to give them that solution. And even then it’s STILL not going to make people go “whew thank god for this easy way out” it actually makes people feel worse if anything because it makes them feel incompetent or useless, like they couldn’t pull it through with their OWN solution. This goes especially for Trunks and Goku.

Trunks gave nearly everything he had to take out Zamasu and save his timeline with his own solution. Hell that was what Vegeta told him when he trained him, that he can’t keep running to the past to find his solution in having others do it FOR him.
Now mind you as I said earlier this isn’t an “oopsy poopsy my bad” situation, countless lives are gone here dude. The kids, the militia, and many others are gone in a flash.

If anything that alternate timeline would be an almost constant, haunting reminder of his failure to protect his world, that there is another him and Mai there that haven’t experienced this. That the clean and healthy, rebuilding Earth would be in contrast to the desolate wasteland he failed to protect from constant threats and coming to a head with Zamasu.

Put yourself. Honestly. In Trunks’ shoes and tell me how you would have reacted to all the shit Trunks went through up to this point. Now compare it to what we got. It’s quite honestly a miracle Trunks is still outwardly sane at this point. Vietnam soldiers have went through less than him.

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Re: What I think made the Future Trunks arc ending bad

Post by Miracles » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:03 pm

Master Xar wrote:This was more before Whis comes in to give them that solution. And even then it’s STILL not going to make people go “whew thank god for this easy way out” it actually makes people feel worse if anything because it makes them feel incompetent or useless, like they couldn’t pull it through with their OWN solution. This goes especially for Trunks and Goku.

Trunks gave nearly everything he had to take out Zamasu and save his timeline with his own solution. Hell that was what Vegeta told him when he trained him, that he can’t keep running to the past to find his solution in having others do it FOR him.
Now mind you as I said earlier this isn’t an “oopsy poopsy my bad” situation, countless lives are gone here dude. The kids, the militia, and many others are gone in a flash.

If anything that alternate timeline would be an almost constant, haunting reminder of his failure to protect his world, that there is another him and Mai there that haven’t experienced this. That the clean and healthy, rebuilding Earth would be in contrast to the desolate wasteland he failed to protect from constant threats and coming to a head with Zamasu.

Put yourself. Honestly. In Trunks’ shoes and tell me how you would have reacted to all the shit Trunks went through up to this point. Now compare it to what we got. It’s quite honestly a miracle Trunks is still outwardly sane at this point. Vietnam soldiers have went through less than him.
Actually, it isn't anything extraordinary that trunks isn't mentally broken. Trunks won.
The help he asked for gave him victory and even tho he lost a timeline it was for the greater good.
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Re: What I think made the Future Trunks arc ending bad

Post by HeroR » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:27 pm

Miracles wrote: Actually, it isn't anything extraordinary that trunks isn't mentally broken. Trunks won.
The help he asked for gave him victory and even tho he lost a timeline it was for the greater good.
Trunks didn't see it as a victory even as he went into his new timeline. As he told Gohan, "I couldn't protect the world'. This isn't the statement of someone declaring victory.
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Re: What I think made the Future Trunks arc ending bad

Post by Master Xar » Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:40 am

Miracles wrote:
Master Xar wrote:This was more before Whis comes in to give them that solution. And even then it’s STILL not going to make people go “whew thank god for this easy way out” it actually makes people feel worse if anything because it makes them feel incompetent or useless, like they couldn’t pull it through with their OWN solution. This goes especially for Trunks and Goku.

Trunks gave nearly everything he had to take out Zamasu and save his timeline with his own solution. Hell that was what Vegeta told him when he trained him, that he can’t keep running to the past to find his solution in having others do it FOR him.
Now mind you as I said earlier this isn’t an “oopsy poopsy my bad” situation, countless lives are gone here dude. The kids, the militia, and many others are gone in a flash.

If anything that alternate timeline would be an almost constant, haunting reminder of his failure to protect his world, that there is another him and Mai there that haven’t experienced this. That the clean and healthy, rebuilding Earth would be in contrast to the desolate wasteland he failed to protect from constant threats and coming to a head with Zamasu.

Put yourself. Honestly. In Trunks’ shoes and tell me how you would have reacted to all the shit Trunks went through up to this point. Now compare it to what we got. It’s quite honestly a miracle Trunks is still outwardly sane at this point. Vietnam soldiers have went through less than him.
Actually, it isn't anything extraordinary that trunks isn't mentally broken. Trunks won.
The help he asked for gave him victory and even tho he lost a timeline it was for the greater good.
No you’re still looking at it from the outer view, put you, YOU yourself. In Trunks’ shoes he gave up SO much to protect that timeline, it wasn’t just his timeline, it was his home it was his home he wasn’t good enough to protect (in his eyes).

He didn’t win personally. He lost at what he came there in the first place to do. Save. His. Home. If that were me FUCK the greater good i’d still be bare minimum pissed and cripplingly depressed at my failure, as I said this is no minor thing, this is a TIMELINE here, countless lives he swore to protect are gone, possibly forever. Even in the new timeline it’s not HIS timeline.

The only reason it’s “bittersweet” is because they managed to stop him from spreading across the timelines into the past. But Trunks and Mai are STILL screwed here...

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Re: What I think made the Future Trunks arc ending bad

Post by Super Saiyan Swagger » Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:36 am

Although I do somewhat agree that there is an inappropriate tonal shift in the final episode of the arc, the scene with Trunks and Gohan makes up for it (for me, at least). That scene does a great job of pointing out what purpose Trunks serves as a character in these stories. Back in the Android arc, his travels through time allowed for present Gohan to have a family and become a scholar. Compare that to the Gohan he knew who was a fighter most of the time and ended up dying. If it wasn't for Trunks, there wouldn't be a Gohan living happily.

Same thing applies for this different timeline that Trunks and Mai travel to. If it wasn't for Trunks travelling back in time and combating Zamasu, there wouldn't be another timeline where the people he knew survive Zamasu's rampage. It echoes what he did for Gohan back in Z, this time for everyone on Earth. It's bittersweet because he was able to at least create a timeline where all these people get to live, even though the ones he knew are now gone.

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Re: What I think made the Future Trunks arc ending bad

Post by Michsi » Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:50 am

Master Xar wrote:After looking at the Eng Dub ending of the arc it finally clicked as I was watching it. It wasn’t the grim or darkness. It wasn’t Deus Ex Machina (because objectively it was a Chekhov’s gun that Zeno Button) it wasn’t the alternate timeline Trunks went to. It’s not the Sword of Hope Trunks pulled. No...

It was that freaking Tone Shift after they got back from the timeline. Look at how they are after that whole thing... no one treats the situation as it should. They failed. Hard. the entire point of a bad or bittersweet ending, is that it’s a failure.

Agreed, but tbh, people have been pointing this out before the English dub got to it. Sudden tone shifts aren't really new to DB, though. I'm pretty sure I can recall moments in the original that weren't treated with the emotional weight you'd think it deserved. They're so adamant about keeping it "lighthearted " that even when they introduce some really serious ideas they breeze over the consequences in order to not make them feel quite so grim.

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Re: I figured out what made the FT arc ending so bad. (IMPORTANT READ)

Post by The Patrolman » Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:03 am

Master Xar wrote:Oh don’t get me started on the manga. Trunks has the DUMBEST smile on his face, O don’t think either of them even frowned... and this is after the anime’s ending and he somehow makes it even worse...

Whew boy if this is Toriyama’s successor outside of his art Dragonball ain’t lasting long after he is done if he cannot catch this bad storytelling.
Yeah the anime atleast made this scene emotional in Trunks perspective. Toyotaro made like "See you the fuck later"
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Re: What I think made the Future Trunks arc ending bad

Post by Freeza9000 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:10 am

Just months worth reflecting on DBSuper as a whole, just looking beyond the massive firework spectacle, it desperately NEEDS an overhaul.

Like you mentioned, Present Trunks discovering his newfound resolve to get stronger after witnessing the indescribable disparity between his relatively ordinary lifestyle to the hellish war zone in the future would have made for an interesting character arc and new direction for his stagnant character.

The Dragon Balls have always been a convenient get out of jail free card for the heroes and it would’ve been an interesting change of pace for them to deal with an irrevocable loss of life. All the hopes of the surviving human refugees and the two children flushed off the plane of existence. Trauma beyond the worst of trauma. Instead, hardly anyone in the show except for Trunks, Gowasu and Mai grieve of their ultimate failure and just walk it off as some bad day.

The manga is much worse in this regard. You know what Trunks and Mai does after their home gets nuked from existence? They happily rejoice in BBQ dinner as if they hardly gave a solitary shit about the events that transpired.

Even with the anime’s jarring tonal shifts, it at the very least envoked an emotional response from me along with a plethora of fans that harbors the same negative feelings on the ending. An emotional father-son farewell with Vegeta and the presnce of Gohan subtly reminding Trunks about the “HOPE!!!” emblazoned on his time machine. Something for me to give a shit about. Hell, I was even teary eyed for a couple of days after the episode aired.

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Re: What I think made the Future Trunks arc ending bad

Post by Miracles » Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:13 am

HeroR wrote:Trunks didn't see it as a victory even as he went into his new timeline. As he told Gohan, "I couldn't protect the world'. This isn't the statement of someone declaring victory.
Yet Gohan told him to be well and Trunks quickly straightened up with a smile. He was alive going back to the future!
Master Xar wrote:No you’re still looking at it from the outer view, put you, YOU yourself. In Trunks’ shoes he gave up SO much to protect that timeline, it wasn’t just his timeline, it was his home it was his home he wasn’t good enough to protect (in his eyes).

He didn’t win personally. He lost at what he came there in the first place to do. Save. His. Home. If that were me FUCK the greater good i’d still be bare minimum pissed and cripplingly depressed at my failure, as I said this is no minor thing, this is a TIMELINE here, countless lives he swore to protect are gone, possibly forever. Even in the new timeline it’s not HIS timeline.

The only reason it’s “bittersweet” is because they managed to stop him from spreading across the timelines into the past. But Trunks and Mai are STILL screwed here...
Mai and I are not "screwed" cause we did our best and I actually won my one on one fight against fused Zamas. I did my best against the odds. Despite this, circumstances out of my control happened, which called for drastic measures. I am thankful the friends I asked to help save my future were there. If it wasn't for Goku calling Zenoh we would of been really "screwed." My timeline was erased but the woman I care for is with me and I am grateful we made it out alive. After all I've been through I've learned to appreciate the good in the bad.
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Re: What I think made the Future Trunks arc ending bad

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:27 am

Yet Gohan told him to be well and Trunks quickly straightened up with a smile. He was alive going back to the future!
He was not going back to his future. His future is erased from existence. He was travelling for the first time in a new future timeline that he has never been to. His future is gone.
Mai and I are not "screwed" cause we did our best and I actually won my one on one fight against fused Zamas.
One on one fight against Fused Zamasu? Trunks was helped by every lifeform on Earth. It was not a one on one fight. It's the point of the arc. Mortals alone cannot defeat the Supreme God. But every mortal, combined, can kill even the mightiest of Gods.
I am thankful the friends I asked to help save my future were there
And they couldn't save their future.
If it wasn't for Goku calling Zenoh we would of been really "screwed."
If it wasn't for Goku forgetting that he had the Zeno Button, Zamasu would have never become the Multiverse. If it wasn't for Goku forgetting the Mafuba seal, Fused Zamasu would have never been born.
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Re: What I think made the Future Trunks arc ending bad

Post by HeroR » Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:34 pm

Miracles wrote:
HeroR wrote:Trunks didn't see it as a victory even as he went into his new timeline. As he told Gohan, "I couldn't protect the world'. This isn't the statement of someone declaring victory.
Yet Gohan told him to be well and Trunks quickly straightened up with a smile. He was alive going back to the future!
That's being hopeful that things will get better in the new timeline. Not, 'yay, we won!'
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precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: What I think made the Future Trunks arc ending bad

Post by Miracles » Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:29 pm

HeroR wrote:
Miracles wrote:
HeroR wrote:Trunks didn't see it as a victory even as he went into his new timeline. As he told Gohan, "I couldn't protect the world'. This isn't the statement of someone declaring victory.
Yet Gohan told him to be well and Trunks quickly straightened up with a smile. He was alive going back to the future!
That's being hopeful that things will get better in the new timeline. Not, 'yay, we won!'
That's called making the best out of a victory regardless of losses. Moving on!
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."~Psalm 14:1

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