Did Toyotaro do SSG and SSB Justice?

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Bergamo
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Did Toyotaro do SSG and SSB Justice?

Post by Bergamo » Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:41 pm

Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue were 2 forms introduced in the movies leading up to DBS. This means that two forms were introduced in the span of 3 hours of content(around 8 episodes for a standard series), and this is something that is hard to pull of well. In the movies neither form had any stand out moment. There's also the problem of Goku reaching a new level of power without the previous level being adequately established.

I think that Toyotaro works his best to fix this in his manga through many subtle things.
1. Toyotaro removes "Saiyan Beyond God" and instead gives the most climactic moment of the arc to SSG rather than SS1 like in the movie and anime.
2. Toyotaro removes Resurrection F from his manga which gives him more flexibility with what he can do with SSB in the future.
3. He makes it so that Goku and Vegeta never truly obtained SSB so that he can keep using SSG and have SSB get stronger without other techniques like the Kaioken.
4. He has Goku overpower his opponent the first time he uses SSB in a real fight. This is a lot different from Ressurection F where Goku gets the upper hand because of his superior stamina and then gets defeated by a ray gun.
5. He gives SSG a last hurrah before permanently ditching it in the Goku Black Saga. He also gives Vegeta the form to make it less of a weird thing that only Goku uses.
6. He establishes SSB's power by having Goku beat Merged Zamas. This fight not only leaves a much stronger impression than anything in the anime or the movie, but it makes it more impactful when Jiren decimates multiple Blue Tier fighters at the same time.

Do you agree with my points?
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Re: Did Toyotaro do SSG and SSB Justice?

Post by prince212 » Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:32 pm

I mostly agree , but one concern that I’ve got wasn’t fixed, and it’s coming from the very beginning . That is shenlong answer about saiyan god telling that is a temporary deity created by gathering 6 saiyans ... .. I can take that answer as an option considering what happened after that arc....they achieved god forms with training... so .. shenlong didn’t know about saiyan god without the 6 saiyans ritual , but that was never clarified by toyo in well enough terms , just by saying that they broke a new wall that never was broken by training with Whis
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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Re: Did Toyotaro do SSG and SSB Justice?

Post by PFM18 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:47 am

Bergamo wrote:1. Toyotaro removes "Saiyan Beyond God" and instead gives the most climactic moment of the arc to SSG rather than SS1 like in the movie and anime.
Yeah Saiyan Beyond God never happened in the anime either. It was movies only. No evidence of it's existence in the DBS anime.
Toyotaro removes Resurrection F from his manga which gives him more flexibility with what he can do with SSB in the future.
Yeah this was only the case because a manga already existed for RoF in the form of the promotional manga released before the movie came out.
He makes it so that Goku and Vegeta never truly obtained SSB so that he can keep using SSG and have SSB get stronger without other techniques like the Kaioken
I don't see how this is a good thing at all. The fact that they never truly obtained SSB and SSG is a change that isn't really objectively better or worse.
He has Goku overpower his opponent the first time he uses SSB in a real fight. This is a lot different from Ressurection F where Goku gets the upper hand because of his superior stamina and then gets defeated by a ray gun.
Yeah he completely overpowers them from the beginning removing any tension from the scene.
He gives SSG a last hurrah before permanently ditching it in the Goku Black Saga. He also gives Vegeta the form to make it less of a weird thing that only Goku uses.
I like Vegeta's tendency to "skip" forms so I didn't like this change at all. He skipped SSJ3 and went to SSJ4 in GT. He "skipped" SSG and went to SSB.(He realistically in-universe can probably use the form in the anime but it's uses are limited in the anime continuity.)
He establishes SSB's power by having Goku beat Merged Zamas
Not only was it ridiculous that he was able to overpower Merged Zamasu, but to say that he defeated Merged Zamasu is factually incorrect. Zeno defeated Merged Zamasu

So no I don't agree with any of them. I generally think Toyotaro does a very poor job and I am disappointed by his work pretty much every time a new chapter comes out.

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Re: Did Toyotaro do SSG and SSB Justice?

Post by Marlowe89 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:04 am

Bergamo wrote: Do you agree with my points?
Pretty much. I especially like how Blue carries a real sense of weight, progression and overall narrative impact in the manga. It's not obnoxiously shoved into every little conflict where it doesn't belong, and Toyotaro made it something that both Goku and Vegeta continuously worked towards improving in unique ways that thematically benefited their rivalry while ensuring that the form's usage was reserved only for the toughest opponents.

Looking forward to seeing how the manga handles Ultra Instinct.

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Re: Did Toyotaro do SSG and SSB Justice?

Post by PFM18 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:29 am

Marlowe89 wrote:while ensuring that the form's usage was reserved only for the toughest opponents.
This. If there is anything Toyotaro did right in regards to the handling of SSB/SSG it is withholding them from fights against characters that it isn't necessary against or against inconsequential characters in general. It makes it feel more significant and intimidating this way

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Re: Did Toyotaro do SSG and SSB Justice?

Post by Bergamo » Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:45 am

PFM18 wrote:
Bergamo wrote:1. Toyotaro removes "Saiyan Beyond God" and instead gives the most climactic moment of the arc to SSG rather than SS1 like in the movie and anime.
Yeah Saiyan Beyond God never happened in the anime either. It was movies only. No evidence of it's existence in the DBS anime.
Toyotaro removes Resurrection F from his manga which gives him more flexibility with what he can do with SSB in the future.
Yeah this was only the case because a manga already existed for RoF in the form of the promotional manga released before the movie came out.
He makes it so that Goku and Vegeta never truly obtained SSB so that he can keep using SSG and have SSB get stronger without other techniques like the Kaioken
I don't see how this is a good thing at all. The fact that they never truly obtained SSB and SSG is a change that isn't really objectively better or worse.
He has Goku overpower his opponent the first time he uses SSB in a real fight. This is a lot different from Ressurection F where Goku gets the upper hand because of his superior stamina and then gets defeated by a ray gun.
Yeah he completely overpowers them from the beginning removing any tension from the scene.
He gives SSG a last hurrah before permanently ditching it in the Goku Black Saga. He also gives Vegeta the form to make it less of a weird thing that only Goku uses.
I like Vegeta's tendency to "skip" forms so I didn't like this change at all. He skipped SSJ3 and went to SSJ4 in GT. He "skipped" SSG and went to SSB.(He realistically in-universe can probably use the form in the anime but it's uses are limited in the anime continuity.)
He establishes SSB's power by having Goku beat Merged Zamas
Not only was it ridiculous that he was able to overpower Merged Zamasu, but to say that he defeated Merged Zamasu is factually incorrect. Zeno defeated Merged Zamasu

So no I don't agree with any of them. I generally think Toyotaro does a very poor job and I am disappointed by his work pretty much every time a new chapter comes out.
1. My bad. It is true that there was no "Saiyan Beyond God" in the anime.
2. Does it matter why Ressurection F was skipped? It benefits the narrative, so who cares?
3. This was good because it allowed for SSB to have a proper introduction later, and it made it so that SSG didn't immediately fade into obscurity. I never claimed my opinion was objective.
4. I admit that Goku vs Hit's ending wasn't executed as well it could have been, but Goku and Hit were still pretty close at the end. Besides, it's not like there was much tension in this arc anyway.
5. I get that you have this preference, but do you have any judgements for the scene on it's own merits?
6. Goku bested MZ in combat and Zamas had to resort to taking a hostage to survive. Beat doesn't have to mean kill. Also, Goku black is weaker than Goku, and he fused with a being far weaker than Goku, so it makes sense that the fusion is about as strong as Goku. Also, Kibito and Shin fused and the end result was not that much stronger than Shin. Fusion isn't always a hugely significant force.
7. Is there any reason you are disappointed in the DBS manga. It isn't the story or the transformations, since you defend those. In this post all you mentioned a very specific preference, you said you didn't feel tension in the Hit fight(which was Toyotaro at the beginning of his time as a writer for DBS), and you mentioned that you don't like something that was specified in the Toriyama outline and has a clear anime analog.
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Re: Did Toyotaro do SSG and SSB Justice?

Post by Melkaniator » Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:48 am

Yet again way better than the anime, Toyotaro give respect to the latest SS form and avoids the inconsistencies from the anime.

SSB+KK never made sense, not at that moment at least, and seeing how close Toyotaro works with Toriyama, we can at least be sure that idea wasn't from Akira at all.

Toei made SSB be thrash.
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Re: Did Toyotaro do SSG and SSB Justice?

Post by MKCSTEALTH » Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:36 am

Honestly, I enjoy his take much more than the anime. I think he's part of the reason we saw SSG during the ToP. That and the whole sudden "Blue drains stamina."

I like SSG being a form that can be tapped into. I like that Blue has it's drawbacks and can be used in a pseudo SSBKK style where they absorb the energy into themselves and get that temporary boost. It's gonna be interesting if we see SSBE from Vegeta, though seeing as how we never saw SS Rage for Trunks, I sort of doubt it

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Re: Did Toyotaro do SSG and SSB Justice?

Post by JazzMazz » Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:39 am

I think his certainly handled the forms better on a whole than say the anime, but I still find them quite underwhelming. They still mostly just feel like more powered up states of the previous forms.

I also think Golden Freeza's(an SSB tier character) performance last chapter, really didn't reflect well on even the power increase that God level characters have over regular ones, and I'm not particularly fond of SS Black dominating SSB Vegeta in the least.

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Re: Did Toyotaro do SSG and SSB Justice?

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:54 am

I agree on SSG, he made good use of that form even though it lost it's momentum a long time ago.

About SSB, although I appreciate just how incredibly strong that form Toyotaro made it to be, I just can't fall out of love with kaio ken

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Re: Did Toyotaro do SSG and SSB Justice?

Post by sintzu » Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:37 am

Overall I think he did a better job, especially with SsjG as he established very early on that Goku can use it at will while the anime didn't use it for a very long time only to bring it back because of reasons.
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Re: Did Toyotaro do SSG and SSB Justice?

Post by PFM18 » Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:37 am

MKCSTEALTH wrote:Honestly, I enjoy his take much more than the anime. I think he's part of the reason we saw SSG during the ToP. That and the whole sudden "Blue drains stamina."

I like SSG being a form that can be tapped into. I like that Blue has it's drawbacks and can be used in a pseudo SSBKK style where they absorb the energy into themselves and get that temporary boost. It's gonna be interesting if we see SSBE from Vegeta, though seeing as how we never saw SS Rage for Trunks, I sort of doubt it
I think we'll see SSBE Vegeta. It wouldnt make any sense for him to beat GoD Toppo without a new form when current base Toppo is on par with CSSB.

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Re: Did Toyotaro do SSG and SSB Justice?

Post by BlueBasilisk » Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:18 pm

MKCSTEALTH wrote:Honestly, I enjoy his take much more than the anime. I think he's part of the reason we saw SSG during the ToP. That and the whole sudden "Blue drains stamina."

I like SSG being a form that can be tapped into. I like that Blue has it's drawbacks and can be used in a pseudo SSBKK style where they absorb the energy into themselves and get that temporary boost. It's gonna be interesting if we see SSBE from Vegeta, though seeing as how we never saw SS Rage for Trunks, I sort of doubt it
Goku mentioned that in the anime too when he fought Hit, but it never really became a plot point until the ToP. I still feel like it contradicts what happened in Resurrection F though.

I've said this before, but I think Rage Trunks/enhanced SS2 Trunks and Mastered SSB/Kaioken Blue/Evoblution are intended to be the alternate continuity versions of the same concept, just introduced in different places. Toyotaro puts them at the beginning of the arc (SSB Goku excluded) while Toei makes them a climactic spectacle.

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Re: Did Toyotaro do SSG and SSB Justice?

Post by Bulma's Foot Masseur » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:48 am

I don't like the principle that a form emitting aura means it's not perfected.

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Re: Did Toyotaro do SSG and SSB Justice?

Post by Kokonoe » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:54 am

He certainly did and because of him and his writing he sold me on this concept whereas I could never get attached to it elsewhere.

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Re: Did Toyotaro do SSG and SSB Justice?

Post by Dragon Wukong » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:12 am

To be honest I was always under the impression in the movies and the manga that Vegeta just did the SSG ritual before the RoF arc, like it was implied he'd do at the end of Battle of Gods.

Anyhow, yes. I think the way Toyotaro handled the forms, especially SSGSS was leagues above the anime's interpretation. As hype as Kaioken SSGSS was, it didn't sit right with me at all that Hit was apparently 10 times above the level Goku was. And I loved the implications that the gap between SSG and SSGSS isn't really all that big, and that the form is pretty much around God of Destruction tier, even if they're still weaker than Beerus.

SSG remaining its own form also felt like it made the most sense to me. I was happy when Vegeta of all people properly gave it a last hurrah in the Black arc. Though that might be more of Toriyama's doing than Toyotaro's, considering he said he specifically supervised those parts. I hope it gets some more good fight scenes in the ToP like it did in the anime, but considering how much more OP Kale is he'll probably stick with perfected SSGSS.
PFM18 wrote:I think we'll see SSBE Vegeta. It wouldnt make any sense for him to beat GoD Toppo without a new form when current base Toppo is on par with CSSB.
Honestly, I just don't think GoD Toppo is gonna be a thing in the manga. It felt really, really weird to suddenly make it a form when none of the other GoD's do a transformation like that to use their powers. Consider that in the manga, Toppo can already use God ki, and Goku proves that you don't need some special "GoD transformation" to use God of Destruction powers/techniques, two things that would make Toppo's new form somewhat redundant. Without GoD Toppo and Kaioken SSB Goku, as well as the implications/statements in the manga that they're already God of Destruction tier all the reasons for SSBE Vegeta to exist kinda just fade away. I could be wrong, though personally I would like it if it didn't appear. I'm sort of a minimalist in how much Saiyan transformations I want, especially when they become unique to a single character.

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Re: Did Toyotaro do SSG and SSB Justice?

Post by Bergamo » Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:02 pm

Bulma's Foot Masseur wrote:I don't like the principle that a form emitting aura means it's not perfected.
It doesn't say that auras are a sign of flaws in a transformation, the Ki leaking is something specific to SSGSS. Also, Ki leaking was brought up in both mediums.
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