If Toyotaro were to go back and fill in the RoF arc today, what would it be like?

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If Toyotaro were to go back and fill in the RoF arc today, what would it be like?

Post by Analytical Delusion » Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:44 am

At the time, I was pretty disappointed that we didn't get Toyotaro's take on RoF. The reasons are obvious and well-known:

(1) The Super manga began as a promotional product (and part of why it skipped ahead was to hype/tease the anime during the RoF rehashing).
(2) He already drew three chapters promoting the RoF movie (so even if there wasn't editorial direction, he probably didn't want to draw them over with a high degree of overlap).

In retrospect, I think it has been somewhat of a blessing in disguise. There seemed to be a retcon on the strength of Goku and Vegeta in their base forms in some point during the Universe 6 and Goku Black arcs. "Saiyan Beyond God" (maybe not in name but in essence) was written into the series when we had two standalone movies, but as Super began, at some point the concept disappeared completely, and base Goku/Vegeta got much weaker. In the anime, this makes for a lot of inconsistency. However in skipping RoF to get ahead, Toyotaro (likely inadvertently avoided this problem.

The tradeoff is of course, we don't know what exactly happened. We get brief synopses from the narrator in chapter 5 and flashbacks from Whis and Freeza in chapter 32.

What do we know?

• Goku and Vegeta trained with Whis, and achieved Blue (Chapter 5 narrator)
• Freeza was revived by the remnants of his men, and attacked Earth (Chapter 5 narrator)
• Freeza came to Earth with thousands of his troops while Goku and Vegeta were training (Chapter 32 Whis)
• The rest of the cast fought the troops, and the troops were annihilated (Chapter 32 Whis)
• Freeza transformed into Golden Freeza (Chapter 32 Whis)
• Using Blue, they defeated Freeza (Chapter 5 narrator)
• Freeza lost his Golden form at some point (Chapter 32 Freeza)
• Freeza was about to be killed by Blue Vegeta (Chapter 32 Freeza)
• Blue Goku Came in at the last second to steal the kill (Chapter 32 Freeza)

What can we imply from the above?

• Since Goku and Vegeta are seen in Freeza's flashback wearing the autographed uniforms, it's likely the training happened the same way it did in the other mediums.
• Since Freeza reverted to his fourth form, it's likely he had the same issue with stamina in his Golden form.
• Since Goku attacked Freeza, he probably expected Freeza to try and blow up the Earth first (it's uncertain if he saw it happening live, or if Whis turned back time).
• Since Sorbet, Tagoma, Shisami appear in the manga, it's likely they play secondary antagonist roles as they did in the other mediums (though they likely wouldn't get full fights).
• Since Gohan was training in the gravity room in secret at the time of the Goku black arc, it's likely he was overpowered by Freeza.
• Since everybody is familiar with Jaco, it's likely he played a similar role in the manga continuity.

What else do I theorize happened?

• Since we saw Champa and Vados collecting Dragon Balls, and because they had six by the time they arrived on Beerus's planet, it's possible we'd get at least one more cutaway of them searching.
• Goku probably would not use Super Saiyan God. In chapter 13 when he pulled the form out against Hit, everyone was surprised to see it.
• It's probable Either Goku and Fourth Form Freeza did not fight at all, or Goku fought him as a standard Super Saiyan instead of in his base. When Goku and Vegeta use the form in the Universe 6 Tournament, nobody blinks and eye or comments that they hadn't seen the form recently. Further, in chapter 4, Goku does not absorb the god ki into his body, and remains in Super Saiyan God the entire time against Beerus.

The third point is probably the most controversial. I think there are probably two pieces of evidence that make me pause:

(1) In chapter 5, Whis penalizes Vegeta for transforming, because he has them training in their base forms (maybe Saiyan Beyond God wasn't retconned out yet, or maybe I'm making too much of it).
(2) In the most recent chapter of the manga (37), Freeza seems a bit weaker than he did in the anime, so it's possible his fourth form isn't super powerful (however Kale also gives Blue Goku a hard time, so maybe she's just stronger; Goku and Freeza also seemed to fight to a stalemate offscreen during the recruitment arc).

Anyhow, what do you guys think? Did I get anything wrong? Or miss anything? It would be nice to have a consensus of what happened. Really the only thing of major consequence to me is what becomes of the base Goku vs Fourth Form Freeza fight, since that creates a ton of inconsistency with power scaling (and with the god ki concept in general) later on.

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Re: If Toyotaro were to go back and fill in the RoF arc today, what would it be like?

Post by BWri » Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:53 pm

Analytical Delusion wrote:At the time, I was pretty disappointed that we didn't get Toyotaro's take on RoF. The reasons are obvious and well-known:

(1) The Super manga began as a promotional product (and part of why it skipped ahead was to hype/tease the anime during the RoF rehashing).
(2) He already drew three chapters promoting the RoF movie (so even if there wasn't editorial direction, he probably didn't want to draw them over with a high degree of overlap).

In retrospect, I think it has been somewhat of a blessing in disguise. There seemed to be a retcon on the strength of Goku and Vegeta in their base forms in some point during the Universe 6 and Goku Black arcs. "Saiyan Beyond God" (maybe not in name but in essence) was written into the series when we had two standalone movies, but as Super began, at some point the concept disappeared completely, and base Goku/Vegeta got much weaker. In the anime, this makes for a lot of inconsistency. However in skipping RoF to get ahead, Toyotaro (likely inadvertently avoided this problem.

The tradeoff is of course, we don't know what exactly happened. We get brief synopses from the narrator in chapter 5 and flashbacks from Whis and Freeza in chapter 32.

What do we know?

• Goku and Vegeta trained with Whis, and achieved Blue (Chapter 5 narrator)
• Freeza was revived by the remnants of his men, and attacked Earth (Chapter 5 narrator)
• Freeza came to Earth with thousands of his troops while Goku and Vegeta were training (Chapter 32 Whis)
• The rest of the cast fought the troops, and the troops were annihilated (Chapter 32 Whis)
• Freeza transformed into Golden Freeza (Chapter 32 Whis)
• Using Blue, they defeated Freeza (Chapter 5 narrator)
• Freeza lost his Golden form at some point (Chapter 32 Freeza)
• Freeza was about to be killed by Blue Vegeta (Chapter 32 Freeza)
• Blue Goku Came in at the last second to steal the kill (Chapter 32 Freeza)

What can we imply from the above?

• Since Goku and Vegeta are seen in Freeza's flashback wearing the autographed uniforms, it's likely the training happened the same way it did in the other mediums.
• Since Freeza reverted to his fourth form, it's likely he had the same issue with stamina in his Golden form.
• Since Goku attacked Freeza, he probably expected Freeza to try and blow up the Earth first (it's uncertain if he saw it happening live, or if Whis turned back time).
• Since Sorbet, Tagoma, Shisami appear in the manga, it's likely they play secondary antagonist roles as they did in the other mediums (though they likely wouldn't get full fights).
• Since Gohan was training in the gravity room in secret at the time of the Goku black arc, it's likely he was overpowered by Freeza.
• Since everybody is familiar with Jaco, it's likely he played a similar role in the manga continuity.

What else do I theorize happened?

• Since we saw Champa and Vados collecting Dragon Balls, and because they had six by the time they arrived on Beerus's planet, it's possible we'd get at least one more cutaway of them searching.
• Goku probably would not use Super Saiyan God. In chapter 13 when he pulled the form out against Hit, everyone was surprised to see it.
• It's probable Either Goku and Fourth Form Freeza did not fight at all, or Goku fought him as a standard Super Saiyan instead of in his base. When Goku and Vegeta use the form in the Universe 6 Tournament, nobody blinks and eye or comments that they hadn't seen the form recently. Further, in chapter 4, Goku does not absorb the god ki into his body, and remains in Super Saiyan God the entire time against Beerus.

The third point is probably the most controversial. I think there are probably two pieces of evidence that make me pause:

(1) In chapter 5, Whis penalizes Vegeta for transforming, because he has them training in their base forms (maybe Saiyan Beyond God wasn't retconned out yet, or maybe I'm making too much of it).
(2) In the most recent chapter of the manga (37), Freeza seems a bit weaker than he did in the anime, so it's possible his fourth form isn't super powerful (however Kale also gives Blue Goku a hard time, so maybe she's just stronger; Goku and Freeza also seemed to fight to a stalemate offscreen during the recruitment arc).

Anyhow, what do you guys think? Did I get anything wrong? Or miss anything? It would be nice to have a consensus of what happened. Really the only thing of major consequence to me is what becomes of the base Goku vs Fourth Form Freeza fight, since that creates a ton of inconsistency with power scaling (and with the god ki concept in general) later on.
I don't think it would be too terribly different and that's a shame to me, because the beats of the film and anime are pretty much the entire movie/arc. The only thing I can see Toyotaro possibly doing is fleshing out the training sequence more. That would interest me. Also, seeing both Togoma and Shisami in action at the same time would be a nice change as potential opponents for Gohan and Piccolo, but since Piccolo barely did anything in the U6 tourney, I don't see him getting more to do in Toyotaro's RoF. Seeing Frieza toy with everyone before Goku and Vegeta arrive would be cool, so we'd get more moments from the humans and possibly Jaco.

As far as your last two points, I'd like for Toyotaro to go more into depth about SBG and why perhaps they don't use it but I doubt he would and I don't think Frieza's Golden Form will be any weaker, but I could see Toyotaro weakening his previous forms. He tends to have more conservative levels of power in his manga than the anime. And first form Frieza one-shotting Gohan is fairly ridiculous, to me at least.
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Re: If Toyotaro were to go back and fill in the RoF arc today, what would it be like?

Post by Bergamo » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:30 am

BWri wrote:
Analytical Delusion wrote:At the time, I was pretty disappointed that we didn't get Toyotaro's take on RoF. The reasons are obvious and well-known:

(1) The Super manga began as a promotional product (and part of why it skipped ahead was to hype/tease the anime during the RoF rehashing).
(2) He already drew three chapters promoting the RoF movie (so even if there wasn't editorial direction, he probably didn't want to draw them over with a high degree of overlap).

In retrospect, I think it has been somewhat of a blessing in disguise. There seemed to be a retcon on the strength of Goku and Vegeta in their base forms in some point during the Universe 6 and Goku Black arcs. "Saiyan Beyond God" (maybe not in name but in essence) was written into the series when we had two standalone movies, but as Super began, at some point the concept disappeared completely, and base Goku/Vegeta got much weaker. In the anime, this makes for a lot of inconsistency. However in skipping RoF to get ahead, Toyotaro (likely inadvertently avoided this problem.

The tradeoff is of course, we don't know what exactly happened. We get brief synopses from the narrator in chapter 5 and flashbacks from Whis and Freeza in chapter 32.

What do we know?

• Goku and Vegeta trained with Whis, and achieved Blue (Chapter 5 narrator)
• Freeza was revived by the remnants of his men, and attacked Earth (Chapter 5 narrator)
• Freeza came to Earth with thousands of his troops while Goku and Vegeta were training (Chapter 32 Whis)
• The rest of the cast fought the troops, and the troops were annihilated (Chapter 32 Whis)
• Freeza transformed into Golden Freeza (Chapter 32 Whis)
• Using Blue, they defeated Freeza (Chapter 5 narrator)
• Freeza lost his Golden form at some point (Chapter 32 Freeza)
• Freeza was about to be killed by Blue Vegeta (Chapter 32 Freeza)
• Blue Goku Came in at the last second to steal the kill (Chapter 32 Freeza)

What can we imply from the above?

• Since Goku and Vegeta are seen in Freeza's flashback wearing the autographed uniforms, it's likely the training happened the same way it did in the other mediums.
• Since Freeza reverted to his fourth form, it's likely he had the same issue with stamina in his Golden form.
• Since Goku attacked Freeza, he probably expected Freeza to try and blow up the Earth first (it's uncertain if he saw it happening live, or if Whis turned back time).
• Since Sorbet, Tagoma, Shisami appear in the manga, it's likely they play secondary antagonist roles as they did in the other mediums (though they likely wouldn't get full fights).
• Since Gohan was training in the gravity room in secret at the time of the Goku black arc, it's likely he was overpowered by Freeza.
• Since everybody is familiar with Jaco, it's likely he played a similar role in the manga continuity.

What else do I theorize happened?

• Since we saw Champa and Vados collecting Dragon Balls, and because they had six by the time they arrived on Beerus's planet, it's possible we'd get at least one more cutaway of them searching.
• Goku probably would not use Super Saiyan God. In chapter 13 when he pulled the form out against Hit, everyone was surprised to see it.
• It's probable Either Goku and Fourth Form Freeza did not fight at all, or Goku fought him as a standard Super Saiyan instead of in his base. When Goku and Vegeta use the form in the Universe 6 Tournament, nobody blinks and eye or comments that they hadn't seen the form recently. Further, in chapter 4, Goku does not absorb the god ki into his body, and remains in Super Saiyan God the entire time against Beerus.

The third point is probably the most controversial. I think there are probably two pieces of evidence that make me pause:

(1) In chapter 5, Whis penalizes Vegeta for transforming, because he has them training in their base forms (maybe Saiyan Beyond God wasn't retconned out yet, or maybe I'm making too much of it).
(2) In the most recent chapter of the manga (37), Freeza seems a bit weaker than he did in the anime, so it's possible his fourth form isn't super powerful (however Kale also gives Blue Goku a hard time, so maybe she's just stronger; Goku and Freeza also seemed to fight to a stalemate offscreen during the recruitment arc).

Anyhow, what do you guys think? Did I get anything wrong? Or miss anything? It would be nice to have a consensus of what happened. Really the only thing of major consequence to me is what becomes of the base Goku vs Fourth Form Freeza fight, since that creates a ton of inconsistency with power scaling (and with the god ki concept in general) later on.
I don't think it would be too terribly different and that's a shame to me, because the beats of the film and anime are pretty much the entire movie/arc. The only thing I can see Toyotaro possibly doing is fleshing out the training sequence more. That would interest me. Also, seeing both Togoma and Shisami in action at the same time would be a nice change as potential opponents for Gohan and Piccolo, but since Piccolo barely did anything in the U6 tourney, I don't see him getting more to do in Toyotaro's RoF. Seeing Frieza toy with everyone before Goku and Vegeta arrive would be cool, so we'd get more moments from the humans and possibly Jaco.

As far as your last two points, I'd like for Toyotaro to go more into depth about SBG and why perhaps they don't use it but I doubt he would and I don't think Frieza's Golden Form will be any weaker, but I could see Toyotaro weakening his previous forms. He tends to have more conservative levels of power in his manga than the anime. And first form Frieza one-shotting Gohan is fairly ridiculous, to me at least.
Saiyan Beyond God doesn't exist and is never shown. That's why they don't use it.
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Re: If Toyotaro were to go back and fill in the RoF arc today, what would it be like?

Post by BWri » Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:33 am

Bergamo wrote: Saiyan Beyond God doesn't exist and is never shown. That's why they don't use it.
It existed in the last two DBZ movies and vestiges of it popped up in the Super anime until they seemingly dropped it. It's doubtful that Toyotaro uses it, because he's already established his power hierarchy with SSG being after SSJ3. But as a concept it's existed since the BoG movie and if Toyotaro was so inclined, he could bring the concept back and explain it and why he did away with it.
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Re: If Toyotaro were to go back and fill in the RoF arc today, what would it be like?

Post by Bergamo » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:20 pm

BWri wrote:
Bergamo wrote: Saiyan Beyond God doesn't exist and is never shown. That's why they don't use it.
It existed in the last two DBZ movies and vestiges of it popped up in the Super anime until they seemingly dropped it. It's doubtful that Toyotaro uses it, because he's already established his power hierarchy with SSG being after SSJ3. But as a concept it's existed since the BoG movie and if Toyotaro was so inclined, he could bring the concept back and explain it and why he did away with it.
Why would he ever do that? It never appeared in his manga, and It would be equal strength to SSG, so all it would do was make a mess of things for no reason.
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Re: If Toyotaro were to go back and fill in the RoF arc today, what would it be like?

Post by BWri » Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:16 am

Bergamo wrote:
BWri wrote:
Bergamo wrote: Saiyan Beyond God doesn't exist and is never shown. That's why they don't use it.
It existed in the last two DBZ movies and vestiges of it popped up in the Super anime until they seemingly dropped it. It's doubtful that Toyotaro uses it, because he's already established his power hierarchy with SSG being after SSJ3. But as a concept it's existed since the BoG movie and if Toyotaro was so inclined, he could bring the concept back and explain it and why he did away with it.
Why would he ever do that? It never appeared in his manga, and It would be equal strength to SSG, so all it would do was make a mess of things for no reason.
It's already made a mess of things. This would just give clarity to a concept created by Toriyama himself. Since Toyotaro has access to Toriyama's opinions, perhaps he can make sense of that particular mechanic for those of us in the fandom still curious about it. Like does it go away over time, is the power accessed in different ways, do the Saiyans access that power mostly through transformations after initially absorbing the power. There's really a lot that can be explained between BoG and the end of RoF to make the concepts in those arcs more congruent.

*edit* I see your point though, now that I think about it. If it's not in the manga it should stay out of the manga. My curiosity about the concept is really strong though. I really want to know why (in-universe) the godly base was dropped, if it was dropped.
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Re: If Toyotaro were to go back and fill in the RoF arc today, what would it be like?

Post by Bergamo » Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:48 am

BWri wrote:
Bergamo wrote:
BWri wrote: It existed in the last two DBZ movies and vestiges of it popped up in the Super anime until they seemingly dropped it. It's doubtful that Toyotaro uses it, because he's already established his power hierarchy with SSG being after SSJ3. But as a concept it's existed since the BoG movie and if Toyotaro was so inclined, he could bring the concept back and explain it and why he did away with it.
Why would he ever do that? It never appeared in his manga, and It would be equal strength to SSG, so all it would do was make a mess of things for no reason.
It's already made a mess of things. This would just give clarity to a concept created by Toriyama himself. Since Toyotaro has access to Toriyama's opinions, perhaps he can make sense of that particular mechanic for those of us in the fandom still curious about it. Like does it go away over time, is the power accessed in different ways, do the Saiyans access that power mostly through transformations after initially absorbing the power. There's really a lot that can be explained between BoG and the end of RoF to make the concepts in those arcs more congruent.

*edit* I see your point though, now that I think about it. If it's not in the manga it should stay out of the manga. My curiosity about the concept is really strong though. I really want to know why (in-universe) the godly base was dropped, if it was dropped.
Goku never had Saiyan Beyond God in the manga. Why introduce it for the sake of fading it away later? The form is something that Toriyama no longer wants in his series.
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Re: If Toyotaro were to go back and fill in the RoF arc today, what would it be like?

Post by BWri » Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:01 am

Bergamo wrote:
BWri wrote:
Bergamo wrote: Why would he ever do that? It never appeared in his manga, and It would be equal strength to SSG, so all it would do was make a mess of things for no reason.
It's already made a mess of things. This would just give clarity to a concept created by Toriyama himself. Since Toyotaro has access to Toriyama's opinions, perhaps he can make sense of that particular mechanic for those of us in the fandom still curious about it. Like does it go away over time, is the power accessed in different ways, do the Saiyans access that power mostly through transformations after initially absorbing the power. There's really a lot that can be explained between BoG and the end of RoF to make the concepts in those arcs more congruent.

*edit* I see your point though, now that I think about it. If it's not in the manga it should stay out of the manga. My curiosity about the concept is really strong though. I really want to know why (in-universe) the godly base was dropped, if it was dropped.
Goku never had Saiyan Beyond God in the manga. Why introduce it for the sake of fading it away later? The form is something that Toriyama no longer wants in his series.
I don't think it's a case of Toriyama not wanting it in the series. It comes off as more of a forgotten idea. Something that wasn't expanded upon and that's fine. I actually forgot that the BoG section of the manga didn't have SBG. Since that's the case, I do agree that it's unnecessary for the manga.
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Re: If Toyotaro were to go back and fill in the RoF arc today, what would it be like?

Post by Black Hawk » Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:04 pm

I largely agree with everything you stated. To sum up my view, I think the manga adaptation of Revival of F would play out very much like the promotional manga but with a few key differences, most of which you mentioned:

The battle between Goku and Freeza would most likely start with SSJ1 Goku vs. True Form Freeza as opposed to base Goku, and their battle powers would be scaled down to a level more comparable to the battle between SSJ1 Goku and True Form Frost, except much more equal, with Goku taking a slight advantage. Essentially, it would be the same battle, just with a SSJ1 Goku and much less of a wow factor to their levels of power.

Gohan's belief that he could not defeat Freeza would likely be made in reference to Freeza's true form as opposed to his first form, since Freeza's true form was seemingly scaled down to a level more comparable to SSJ1 and true form Frost, which would proportionally scale down his first three forms as well, soundly placing them below the SSJ1 threshold and, by extension, SSJ1 Gohan (and Piccolo, for that matter). Perhaps, having faced Freeza and witnessed all four of his initial forms as a child, Gohan would have a good idea of how much stronger Freeza would become upon transforming and, knowing his own limitations due to his lack of training, would conclude that his then-current abilities as a SSJ1 would not match up to what he would project Freeza's abilities in his true form to be. (I state this because I believe Freeza still would not go from his first to his true form until the arrival of Goku and Vegeta. If true form Freeza is roughly equal to or only slightly below SSJ1 Goku and Vegeta, he'd be at least somewhat above SSJ1 Gohan in ability.)

Champa and Vados would briefly appear in their then-ongoing search for the Super Dragon Balls, since we know they were in the process of collecting during Battle of Gods and had not found all seven by the time of the Tournament of Destroyers. This would have to be done in such a way that Champa would not be aware of the levels of power or the fighters involved in the battles, since he saw Goku and Vegeta as pushovers when he first encountered them and did not know who they were. If Vados had shown him the battle taking place with Freeza, I believe he'd have recognized Goku's and Vegeta's faces. Likewise, I don't recall him demonstrating any familiarity toward Freeza during the Tournament of Power in the manga. Perhaps a few simple panels consisting of "It seems Beerus is occupied watching some sort of pathetic little battle. This affords me the perfect opportunity to search without worry! Just two left, Vados; let's move!" would suffice.

With regard to the climactic battles of SSJ Blue Goku vs. Golden Freeza and SSJ Blue Vegeta vs. Golden Freeza, I believe they would play out largely as they do in the films, just portrayed slightly differently due to the fight scenes of the film having been left to the Toei staff by Toriyama. I can't help but think Golden Freeza wouldn't exceed SSJ Blue Goku by as much as he did in the film, however, since the battle between base Goku and true form Freeza in the promotional manga wasn't quite as one-sided as it was in the film. From there, the ending would likely largely play out the same as in the film, just slightly condensed for concision and probably consisting of text boxes instead of spoken dialogue, much like the conclusions of the Battle of Gods and Tournament of Destroyers in the manga.
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Re: If Toyotaro were to go back and fill in the RoF arc today, what would it be like?

Post by MonkeyKing16 » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:28 am

Probably give Vegeta more to do than in the movie. Like more scenes of him beating up Freeza.

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