Disregarding quality, are you happy Super existed

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Disregarding quality, are you happy Super existed

Post by Nickolaidas » Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:16 pm

Yes - mainly because of how they handled Krillin, Roshi and Frieza.

But also because it did a damn good job revitalizing the franchise.

Yes, it's not perfect. But news flash - neither was DB, DBZ and sure as heck, DBGT.

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Re: Disregarding quality, are you happy Super existed

Post by Logania » Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:59 pm

Not really happy, if Super never existed and it was just Battle of Gods and Resurrection: F movies as the last of the canonical stories in Dragon Ball, I really wouldn't mind.

However, I'm not gonna say that nothing good came out of Super. it gave me Hit, Zamasu and Ultra Instinct which are pretty great, with Hit being my favorite Dragon Ball character, so without Super I wouldn't have him.

I would never recommend this show to my friends, even if they've seen Dragon Ball, but overall I'm not infuriated that its here, just like GT.

If they would've took their time and maybe made the arcs into movies, with well done animation, art and polished writing, then I feel Super's inclusion would've been a lot better for me.
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Re: Disregarding quality, are you happy Super existed

Post by omaro34 » Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:38 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Kataphrut wrote:Absolutely. Gave me something fun to tune into every week, new characters and lore to talk about and a bevy of awesome character moments and fight scenes.

One down side is seeing all the "true fans' who hate it and call it a cash grab. I don't generally let that stuff bother me, but it sucks to see the thing you had fun with being bagged out.
Oh god yeah I feel like that's just an over used phrase on the internet now, everything is a "cash grab, it's why many shows fail to get second seasons because they didn't make enough money. Or like films at the box office, if it's success more than likely it gets a sequel.

I think people throwing that phrase around are silly. DB existed in the first place because Toriyama needed money, it was his job.
Not really silly to be honest imo. Of course in the literal sense everything needs to be profitable to succeed in business. However, it's more blatant now than ever before. At least in Dragonball and Z there were interesting stories and ideas. Now, Broly who was a major villain from 3 movies was brought back yet again because testosterone screaming hulks sell. We will have to see the movie to confirm my suspicions, but this is clearly a blatant attempt at a fan service cash grab. The franchise wasn't this blatant in DB and most of Z.
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Re: Disregarding quality, are you happy Super existed

Post by Monna » Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:32 am

Happy would be an understatement. Super is life changing. As much as the original series.

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Re: Disregarding quality, are you happy Super existed

Post by coola » Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:33 am

There were some really good episodes on par with original series, but overall, having multiple writers made whole series look bad in my opinion, you could have one episode great, while following episode was full of plotholes crap i never want to see ever again, unless i was payed :)

My other problem with Super, is more egotistical, since it went completely different road i wanted it to go:
- Get rid of Super Saiyans, since thanks to God powers, only SSJG transformations raise your powers, while SSJ1-SSJ3 powers are in your Base form...sadly, SSJ is still around
- it made some of characters annoying, Goku become more childish, Vegeta babble about his pride again (GT handled his character perfectly), Chi Chi become soccer mom again
- It brought back characters like Tien, only to have tchem be cannon fodder again, what was the point then? Tien shouldn't return
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Re: Disregarding quality, are you happy Super existed

Post by Gaffer Tape » Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:35 am

As others have said, I'm not really sure how I can disregard quality in my answer, because it is very much the quality that influences my answer. However, I will admit I had reservations from the beginning about reviving something that had already long since had a satisfying ending. And I had even greater reservations about it compromising in the form of setting it as a midquel so that it would ultimately never really serve to grow anything. But had the resulting product been good enough, I could have overlooked all those things. Had the story felt worth it, its inherent niggling problems would not have been enough to invalidate the good that it brought. However, Super, with the rare exception, was just a slog to get through. The only really good, memorable episodes were the comedy/slice of life episodes. Its attempts at drama were tepid at best and painfully boring at worst. And "painfully boring" had sadly become the norm by the last few dozen episodes.

Revivial era Dragon Ball has proven that it's far more interested in spectacle and catering to fanservice than it is in telling any kind of fun stories anymore. And it's been extremely disheartening to see fans eat it up. And that's not me telling people not to have fun or not to like what you like. But it does force me to resign myself to accept that Dragon Ball is never going to be any better than this because it doesn't have to be. We don't have to write a story. We can just dust off Freeza for the 15th time, and people will lose their minds over it.

So, no, I am not even remotely happy that Super existed.
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Re: Disregarding quality, are you happy Super existed

Post by OhHiRenan » Sun Jul 22, 2018 11:58 am

I'm glad Battle of Gods exists as it serves as a nice alternative ending to the series that doesn't step on the toes of the manga's original conclusion, but I could have done without Super as a whole. There are some aspects of it I enjoy, but, like Gaffer Tape said, it's a spectacle more than anything. I can analyze and dig into the original manga as there's actual substance to its themes, character, and narrative, but Super is devoid of greater meaning for the most part. At best, it's derivative of concepts Dragon Ball already touched upon far better years ago. At worst, it's just meandering from point A to point B, relying on hype to lead the way.
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Re: Disregarding quality, are you happy Super existed

Post by Kanious » Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:06 pm

Of course! I fell in love with DB in 96, when i was only 4 yo, Dragon Ball is something that i was really into, and DBS made me feel like a kid again. I cried, i laughed, i had goosebumps, i had tachycardia [160bpm while watching FT vs Gattai Zamasu], we've had new super saiyan colors, gods, the return of Freeza and #17, an evil Goku, fusions [Zamasu, Vegeto, Kefla], female saiyans and Future Trunks, how wouldn't i be happy about Super? The bad quality on many episodes never was a big deal for me, that's nothing compared to all the enjoyment i've had watching DBS.

I remember that i finished DBGT by the second half of 2003, i was 11 years old, i've spent a great deal of money in magazines about the Dragon Ball world, and after that i was sure that it was the end of DB for once and for all, it saddened me, and after that i've been wondered about how would things in DB universe be if they ever get back. Just hearing about a new anime for Dragon Ball some years ago was enough for me, a guy with a mountain beard, tear up. Now i'm hoping for more DB anime!!

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Re: Disregarding quality, are you happy Super existed

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:15 pm

No.
At least not the anime and I just don't find it to be sincere or authentic at all from Toei. Ideas aren't anything without good execution because bad execution will always represent how those ideas are used and cemented. People in this fandom seem to say a lot there are good ideas, but then claim ideas alone make something good just because they can imagine the potential for it in their head, then project that onto the actual material. I never really came across a bad idea for DB, its just always poor creative use of them that makes the result end up being completely unnecessary beyond the sake of it being validated as new dragonball. Super hasn't really brought anything to the series that made me feel like it was a true evolution off Z. Its presentation has been entirely about marketing off the popularity and nostalgia from it,
and it shows.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.

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Re: Disregarding quality, are you happy Super existed

Post by SSJmole » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:23 am

That's hard as quality is why I'd say no as it's great again.

The idea of super isn't bad. but the ideas in it and the continuity ect... Is why I'd say no. It's gt all over again.

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Re: Disregarding quality, are you happy Super existed

Post by Kogu 87 » Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:56 am

Extremely happy !
Never thought there would ever be a new toriyama dragon ball anime.
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Re: Disregarding quality, are you happy Super existed

Post by sunsetshimmer » Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:47 am

Disregarding quality?
No, i am not. I don't like that Toriyama wake up after so many years and decided that he wants to continue something he ended years ago.
DBS messed up any existing continuity by being created by Toriyama, Toyotaro and TOEI at the same time. DBS anime doesn't fit into both anime and manga timelines. Sometimes, it's faithful to manga, sometimes it includes fillers from Z. It already contradicts original ending and contradcits GT that is STILL being placed in one timeline with Super despite all the inconsistencies betwee those two.

I don't like that they reboot Broly and mess up everything again. Games will now have to include both of them.
I don't like how Trunks has blue hair for no reason and forced DBS to use such pathetic actions as showing flashbacks from Z in black&white to hide that Trunks had purple hair.

DBS made a lot of mess in franchise. It was good before it. There was one manga and its anime adaptation with optional sequel in form of GT.
Although entire mess started with Battle of Gods movie.

Instead of making Super, they could just remake original DB and perhaps remind people that DB didn't start with Raditz.
Path to Power is considered a great movie. It could work well with anime series as well.

I'm only glad DBS finally explained Ultimate, because both GT and early Battle of Gods had issues with that threating Ultimate as base form.
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Re: Disregarding quality, are you happy Super existed

Post by Exline » Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:55 am

Only arc I liked from the anime was the Tournament of Power. Everything else from the anime was terrible imo.

I enjoyed the Manga's U6 Tournament and Future Trunks arc more.

However, both are such a roller coaster of feelings where they get you really hype, disappoint you, and then hype you up again. An endless cycle.

In all honesty, I'd rather they just stuck to movies so I don't have to be disappointed every week with the anime or every month with the current manga.

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Re: Disregarding quality, are you happy Super existed

Post by Grimlock » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:05 am

Exline wrote:In all honesty, I'd rather they just stuck to movies so I don't have to be disappointed every week with the anime or every month with the current manga.
While I also prefer that they stick to the movies, we have a chance to get a garbage movie too, as we already got. You'd had left your house to get to the theater, lose a couple of money and then leave the place upset. I think this is worse than getting upset by reading the manga or watching anime as you wouldn't have to leave your place and spending money.
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Re: Disregarding quality, are you happy Super existed

Post by Exline » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:10 am

Grimlock wrote:
Exline wrote:In all honesty, I'd rather they just stuck to movies so I don't have to be disappointed every week with the anime or every month with the current manga.
While I also prefer that they stick to the movies, we have a chance to get a garbage movie too, as we already had. You'd had left your house to get to the theater, lose a couple of money and then leave the place upset. I think this is worse than getting upset by reading the manga or watching anime as you wouldn't have to leave your place and spending money.
I have confidence in this movie and any other possible movies in the future, as long as Yamamuro's character designs are not involved. I could also decide whether or not based on the trailers/advertising of the movie. I'm not gonna watch it if its obviously bad haha.

Also I feel it'd be more fun to experience it with friends and discuss afterwards with them instead of watching a episode at home alone and and discussing it the next time I see them in the hallways of my college.


I do agree that Res F is a terrible movie, if thats what you meant. I haven't been to the theaters for the previous two, but I will definitely consider going to the movies for this new movie.

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Re: Disregarding quality, are you happy Super existed

Post by Izanagi » Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:43 am

I'm not. I'd honestly have preferred if the series ended to being up to the viewer's interpretation of what's coming up next for Goku following the Majin Boo arc. Instead, it's going off to the deeper end to becoming another cash-grab like Star Wars -- both series ended, faded into the past as a legendary franchise for generations to come, and then was brought back at the time it was past its peak as a shadow of its former self franchise that will never hold the same level of cultural impact as the original, and not only that, but the executive meddling that resulted in the contrived Broly pandering (Kale) during the Tournament of Power is no doubt what led into the upcoming Broly movie we are getting this December, too.

And what rubs more salt to the wound? They weren't even trying to hide the fact that they chiefly brought Broly back to the limelight because he's marketable and scores nostalgia points. Nostalgia helps but it isn't the only thing that matters. Super brought a lot of new concepts and vitality to the DB series: Hakaishin and their connection with the Kaioshin, godly ki, Zeno, multiverses, mortal levels, and Zalama, to name a few. Use nostalgia to expand the universe and provide more room to tread, not just to satisfy viewers' lust for a non-canon movie character taking over a movie.

Dragon Ball Heroes at least is trying to expand upon the Dragon World and introduce us to different universes, and Heroes is essentially a glorified fanfiction. Toei and by extension, Toryiama, is just content with spoon-feeding the viewers with Saiyans every second. Remember when this fucking series wasn't Saiyan-centric and had other fucking races/subplots to deal with? Seriously, don't tease the multiverse concept or introduce subplots, and fail to deliver on them.

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Re: Disregarding quality, are you happy Super existed

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:17 pm

The worst part about Super to me is, the fact that its not a genuine sequel to Z. It was trying to correct the faults GT had intentionally, is more like Toei just found out DB is popular again after ROF and they rushed to get in on the hype, but had nothing really to contribute to the story, but just wanted to milk the opportunity. Thus why now they are going to Toriyama and informing him who is still popular, who is popular overseas and pitching him ideas based on what character they want to market. Thats the only thing they've really done. That or take from the fanbase what they can as a shortcut. GT on the other hand did hold up for being the opposite. It really did come off like they tried to invest into the story and continue it based on how they had a vision to tie everything together and use the best of DB and Z into something collective. An actual vision. Super really doesn't have any direction for any of the characters at all without Toriyama and modern Toriyama is very minimalist. I mean come on, they wanted to use Broly twice in the same series just because he's popular? Right after they shoved Kale being a Broly expy down our throats? I dont want the series to just go on and on and sell itself on the worst perception of the series from the fandom. Like others have said, Super is just too corporate now.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.

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Re: Disregarding quality, are you happy Super existed

Post by sintzu » Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:32 am

Izanagi wrote:I'm not. I'd honestly have preferred if the series ended. Instead, it's going off to the deeper end to becoming another cash-grab like Star Wars.
That's because both products are bringing in millions (in star wars' case, billions) so if anything you'll have to blame the people who support them cause there's no company on earth that'll turn down all that $$$.
Izanagi wrote:They weren't even trying to hide the fact that they brought Broly back because he's marketable and scores nostalgia points.
And they were right to do so. Broly's first 3 days of advanced tickets DOUBLED what RF did in its first 3 days. The companies are just giving people what they want as DB and Star wars stopped being "art" once their original runs came to an end, now they're company products made first and foremost to make the most $$$ possible, regardless of what's put on screen.

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I understand being disappointed about things as holding current DB to the standards of the original manga and its anime adaptions leave a lot to be desired so the best way to lessen the blow and even enjoy things is simply not look at them as one but rather 2 completely different products. The way they're made from writing to production are completely different from one another so you might as well treat them as 2 different products. If something works that's more to enjoy and if not then it has no effect on the original.
sunsetshimmer wrote:I don't like that they reboot Broly and mess up everything again. Games will now have to include both of them.
2 Broly is too much cause it's not like games such as XV2 have SIX versions on Goku.
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Re: Disregarding quality, are you happy Super existed

Post by sunsetshimmer » Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:03 am

sintzu wrote: 2 Broly is too much cause it's not like games such as XV2 have SIX versions on Goku.
Yeah, six version of the same characters from different period. There is nothing wrong with that because it's still the same character.
Broly is completely different case. Those are two almost identical characters, with same names, yet being completely separate beings at the same time.
It will be dumb to see Goku having a dialogue with one Broly and then with other like he ever met both of them.
Or one character may have dialogue with old Broly but not recognize new Broly at all.

Some games have limited roster, like FighterZ, so adding two versions of Broly will be waste of character slots and old Broly is so popular that skipping him in place of new one will make many people mad.
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Re: Disregarding quality, are you happy Super existed

Post by Akyon » Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:09 pm

Super gave us:
[*]Yamcha Baseball Episode which is easily the most fun episode Dragonball's ever had. Yes, including the driving one.
[*]Krillin focus episodes which I greatly appreciated. Wish the ToP had treated him a little better though
[*]A fun dynamic with Frieza for a little bit that made him interesting again
[*]Master Roshi getting his groove back
[*]Return of Android 17 who was an absolute delight
[*]Zamasu who is easily the best villain we've ever had IMO. The fall from grace type is far more interesting than "evil because" to me
[*]The slice of life episodes which honestly were nearly always good. Any time we focused on the characters it became interesting.
[*]An expanded universe full of possibilities to explore. A shame we didn't get to see much of the other universes but ah well.
[*]Android 18 getting some fights and focus too
[*]Future Trunks' return, and honestly a decent arc IMO. People are split on the ending, but meh, I liked it.

Overall I'm SUPER happy it existed. Characters other than Saiyans were useful, or at least capable. Goku isn't the strongest being just because even now. He actually felt briefly like an underdog again, which is when Goku is at his most interesting...a feeling I haven't had since the Saiyan Saga fight with Vegeta. It was an extremely brief feeling though because it's Goku and the plot demands he pull power ups out his power up hole.
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