Toxic Debate in the DBS Fanbase

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Toxic Debate in the DBS Fanbase

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:31 am

The fandom certainly seems to have splintered even more in recent years. Some sides more vocal than others.

Personally, I think this topic is something that's worth addressing, so I'm going to leave it open for now (another forum staff member can close it if they disagree). However, there is a very thin tightrope that needs to be walked during this discussion if you want it to stay that way. All the forum's rules still apply. Be respectful for your fellow members, and the communities outside this forum, while trying to make your points.

There will be a hair trigger on warnings with this thread, so behave.
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Re: Toxic Debate in the DBS Fanbase

Post by Doctor. » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:35 am

PFM18 wrote:In terms of "starting an argument" that is pretty much ultimately the nature of almost every one of these discussions so I don't find it to be particularly reasonable to accuse someone of "starting arguments" on a forum where debating is at it's very core. I mean if anything it is tiresome it is having to listen to people constantly complaining about a series that nobody is forcing them to watch. It muddies the discussion with negative rhetoric that doesn't contribute much to the conversation.
You know what I meant. You're consistently confrontational for no reason; that's what's tiresome.

Define "negative rhetoric." Criticism is criticism. Are you saying we shouldn't criticize the series?

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Re: Toxic Debate in the DBS Fanbase

Post by Sora Saiyan » Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:17 am

I think I have a little idea as to why one’s preferred over the other.

The DBS Anime is pretty much a spectacle, that has a bunch of transformations thrown in, and tries to give people something to enjoy. Just shut your mind off from the original series a little, because you’ll be scratching your head at why a certain character is now at the level of the super special prophecy Beerus had, yet the regular SSJ level of power used to be considered an unattainable goal for most. Even Goku apparently didn’t surpass Freeza in base after all those years. The power scale is flat out ridiculous because the characters are basically given power ups for sneezing too hard (well they are when you try to rationalise them compared with the old anyway) and you’re lucky if you get a reason, even more lucky if you get one that fits with the original series.
Anime Goku Black almost perfectly represents Super; flashy as fuck, and makes Uber gains just because. Also you’ll need to switch your brain off in the ToP, especially the stamina recharging every 30 seconds.

The manga, isn’t anywhere near as flashy, also makes questionable moments, and doesn’t meet some readers expectations (ala Trunks). But it’s basically trying to keep itself more in line with the DB manga in its sense of scaling, the god forms are still special, so the Beerus prophecy isn’t called into question too much, you won’t get as many gains because “you hurt my feelings, imma deck you harder”. Basically the manga tries to tell you why characters are getting stronger, even if the reasoning isn’t brilliant; I’m looking at you CSSJB. Also the ToP eliminates people at a much more natural rate in the manga. Our Universe used to have Freeza as the strongest, and Goku pre god power up used to seem special, but he’s not even an ant compared to current Goku. As Beerus showed in BoG, no amount of trying to fight harder can close that gap, and that was a Beerus who was suppressed lower than initial SSJG. It actually seems that the Universes with “god tier” fighters are anomalies in the manga. I think the point there is it tries to make more sense as to why people are the level they are, and God tiers are so special that some Universes may just never reach that level outside of their GoD.

I think if you actually want to get a good idea how both function, watch/read the ToP and you basically see the way these things play out... sorta.

I’ve given up on trying to say ones better over the other, they both have glaring issues, but I can enjoy them both. The anime is the super spectacle, and the manga is something that is super toned down. If somebody likes the mangas more ‘realistic’ way of doing things the probably won’t like the anime way of doing things as much, and if people like the animes flashy way of doing things the manga probably seems boring. I guess that my two cents anyway.

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Re: Toxic Debate in the DBS Fanbase

Post by sintzu » Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:35 am

That's what happens when you have 2 versions of something, each group wants to prove their preferred version is better even if it means taking things too far. Anime and manga that are near identical have split fan bases so it's not surprising to see that with Super as there are actual differences between the 2 (some stories like BOG 3) versions it has.

When it comes to Super each version has things I like over its counterpart so at this point I just enjoy both for what they are.
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Re: Toxic Debate in the DBS Fanbase

Post by VegettoEX » Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:29 am

Adding on to what TheDevilsCorpse has to say, I find this all incredibly easy:

If you see someone making statements and contributions that are not in good faith and do not live up to the community guidelines, do not engage with them and report their posts using the built-in functionality so a moderator can address it. The age-old saying of "don't feel the trolls" does actually work.

If you are a/the person that seems to get into foul-mouthed arguments anywhere you go, well, you're the lowest common denominator and you're the problem.

Be person #1. Don't be person #2. Once that falls into place, so does everything else. We'll help you if you help us!

People want to be here even when it's begrudgingly so. They're always reading, they're always looking to respond, and they're always looking for a way back in. They want to have the last word. They want your negative attention. Don't give them the satisfaction.

We can't help you out there in other communities, but if you set the example you want to see here and take that outlook and behavior elsewhere in your travels, that's an amazing start.

(That all being said, negative criticism of a thing you like is not an indictment of you as a person. Even the "friendly" people fall victim to this. If someone is responding in good faith with legitimate points that appear to have thoughtful analysis behind them, that's literally the point of what we're trying to do here.)
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Re: Toxic Debate in the DBS Fanbase

Post by sunsetshimmer » Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:31 pm

I am not DBS fan at all, but hating one version only because you like other version is stupid.
Although anime and manga are different, so it's possible to have different opinions and there is nothing wrong with that.

Small example - Personally, i hate Fused Zamasu in anime. I think it's trash in every way. I can't say anything good about him.
His manga version though is actually quite enjoyable. He looks pretty good, he isn't that annoying and entire concept of "infinite Zamasu" is also much better.

But i am not saying it because i picked manga as "preffered version". I am saying this because manga is more interesting to me in this case.
Manga has some issues that anime doesn't have, but in most cases it's just better imo.
So for me it's totally fine to say "DBS manga is good, but anime is trash" if this is what you really think.
It's not okay if you say that because you like one version and think you can't like both.
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Re: Toxic Debate in the DBS Fanbase

Post by Torturephile » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:20 pm

I myself find it easier to avoid confrontations anywhere by acting civilized and rational, or not even participating at all, than to not look like a moron in an argument that goes nowhere. I could have many times just jumped in on random posts to obnoxiously preach on my different stances on the show, but I realize it'll worsen the discussions around here than improve or add to them.
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Re: Toxic Debate in the DBS Fanbase

Post by Logania » Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:11 pm

I think it's usually not something to be discussed seriously when debating manga or anime for series as it's usually just preference, but for Super it's different. It's two different ways the series is handled by 2 separate people. I think it's fine to think one is totally crap while the other is great, but like discussing anything, you gotta be civil.

I myself think the anime is bad but the manga is terrible, but ah well.
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Re: Toxic Debate in the DBS Fanbase

Post by Simere » Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:34 pm

If anyone has a problem with the tone of discussion in this forum, or any forum, then the only ones to blame are the moderators. People are going to be people, and people will act as they're conditioned to. Strict and visible enforcement of the rules at all times is the only thing that can change the attitude of a community. What this forum has is infrequent and selective enforcement. What that conditions people to do is push the boundaries of what's acceptable, and the only lesson in someone getting caught is that they were unlucky, as most everyone around them did the same thing or similar.

Take a look at how they locked the manga thread and said not to discuss the leaks elsewhere. Did that happen? No, posters found other threads to discuss it in. Did anything happen to them? Then the same thing is going to happen next month.
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Re: Toxic Debate in the DBS Fanbase

Post by Miracles » Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:38 pm

The heart of the matter...The truth of this whole manga vs anime debacle, comes down to which version showcased the fandoms favorite characters better [team anime] and which side has a more coherent story [team manga]. With either side unwilling to admit the essential plot points are essentially the same with differences on how to maintain the main story.

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Re: Toxic Debate in the DBS Fanbase

Post by Saturnine » Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:43 pm

If you like both, you shouldn't be bothered by people not liking one of them. It's just opinions you know, why do you care?

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Re: Toxic Debate in the DBS Fanbase

Post by Bergamo » Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:03 pm

Saturnine wrote:If you like both, you shouldn't be bothered by people not liking one of them. It's just opinions you know, why do you care?
People constantly spread negativity in the manga discussion thread, and they seem to feel entitled, expecting me to explain obvious plot points to them. This isn't the worst thing in the world, but it certainly gets me peeved sometimes.
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Re: Toxic Debate in the DBS Fanbase

Post by Doctor. » Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:23 pm

Bergamo wrote:
Saturnine wrote:If you like both, you shouldn't be bothered by people not liking one of them. It's just opinions you know, why do you care?
People constantly spread negativity in the manga discussion thread, and they seem to feel entitled, expecting me to explain obvious plot points to them. This isn't the worst thing in the world, but it certainly gets me peeved sometimes.
To be fair, there was constant negativity when the episodes were coming out for the anime as well; there were no comparisons to the manga, of course, but that's because the anime was ahead. The only reason the manga gets compared to the anime is because it's behind. When the manga was ahead of the anime, 3 years ago when Super started, it was the anime that got compared to the manga every episode.

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Re: Toxic Debate in the DBS Fanbase

Post by Nickolaidas » Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:11 pm

There are a lot more people on the internet today. As a result, there is more vocal negativity.

Negativity always rubs the fans the wrong way because that's what being negative does to someone who is positive. When I like 'A', the last thing I want is people telling me over and over how much they think 'A' sucks. It takes a lot of maturity to differentiate whether someone hating 'A' is a direct attack to your tastes and likes (often it's not - unless the person has a history with you and wants to push your buttons) or whether it's simply his way of expressing his displeasure with 'A'.

Let's be frank - the main reason people voice their thoughts about something is because they want others to hear and read what they just said in order to agree and give them *validation* - that's all there is to it. If you don't want others to know your opinion or don't care, you wouldn't be posting your opinion on a message board, a group of friends, facebook, or a blog. You want people to agree with you - it is an elevating feeling which fills you with confidence.

Which is why negativity about something we like hurts on a subconscious level - it indirectly challenges our views and beliefs on what we like and think is good and makes us question ourselves. Our psyche goes in full defense and fills us with rage ("How dare person X claim that product/idea/person A that I like sucks! He's wrong! I'm right! Otherwise … I have been wrong all this time and this shakes my confidence in my ability to understand what is right with this world. So I can't be wrong. I can't!"). Our subconscious conveniently leaves out the part where people are different, they like different things, people disliking what I like doesn't make them more right than me, it simply means we have different tastes - it just so happens that some people have more refined tastes than others. It doesn't make them right - it doesn't make them wrong.


It just makes them different.


But like I said, we're just human - and negativity in the light of positivity will always be met with caution at best, and hostility at worst. It's in our nature.

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Re: Toxic Debate in the DBS Fanbase

Post by Kokonoe » Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:30 pm

It's unfortunate that in another place I visit it is full of people being toxic towards Toyotaro and the Super manga, calling him a "hack" and constantly shutting down any discussion of positivity towards the manga. No idea why Super anime fans constantly shit on us manga fans for merely enjoying the medium and the writing.

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Re: Toxic Debate in the DBS Fanbase

Post by Jackalope89 » Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:39 pm

Kokonoe wrote:It's unfortunate that in another place I visit it is full of people being toxic towards Toyotaro and the Super manga, calling him a "hack" and constantly shutting down any discussion of positivity towards the manga. No idea why Super anime fans constantly shit on us manga fans for merely enjoying the medium and the writing.
It really goes both ways here, from what I've seen.

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Re: Toxic Debate in the DBS Fanbase

Post by PFM18 » Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:03 pm

Miracles wrote:The truth of this whole manga vs anime debacle, comes down to which version showcased the fandoms favorite characters better [team anime] and which side has a more coherent story [team manga].
Yeah I don't think this is the "truth" or really a fair summary of these debates at all. Some people(me included) think the anime has a more coherent story and vice versa.

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Re: Toxic Debate in the DBS Fanbase

Post by Miracles » Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:17 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Miracles wrote:Yeah I don't think this is the "truth" or really a fair summary of these debates at all. Some people(me included) think the anime has a more coherent story and vice versa.
It's a general truth tho. The manga side boasts about it's more coherent story and degrades the anime for having a bad one. Like Trunks randomly using Spirit bomb or a fatigued Goku overpowering a fused character.
The manga's faults don't have holes like these from their perspective. Then the anime side will talk about how weak Hit or Black looked in the manga and they will instantly from then on nitpick anything Toyotaro does. It's riddled through out the manga thread and all over other boards too.

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Re: Toxic Debate in the DBS Fanbase

Post by prince212 » Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:39 pm

Kokonoe wrote:It's unfortunate that in another place I visit it is full of people being toxic towards Toyotaro and the Super manga, calling him a "hack" and constantly shutting down any discussion of positivity towards the manga. No idea why Super anime fans constantly shit on us manga fans for merely enjoying the medium and the writing.
Here isn’t different , change whatever they named him . Toyotaro seems to be hated or very unliked . Is unpopular to dig dragon ball super manga . Toei is also hated ,but less . Hate is louder than love I guess , and also is trend in these days , where seems to be a bad thing to say that you like something, that’s the toxicity, and it’s eveywhere , not just in dragon ball super, but I guess here is elevated because his past and nostalgia , being a sequel of a “master piece “ have this consequences , but toxicity is everywhere
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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Re: Toxic Debate in the DBS Fanbase

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:18 pm

Some people have certain preferences to specific mediums -- with regards to storytelling -- that are unfortunately more extreme than others. Some people don't have a middle ground. Either something is great or it's terrible. Now there are a lot people who are very much rational and take into the positive and negative and come to a fair conclusion about which certain medium -- in their opinion -- excels at storytelling compared to other and why. But there are those who are just so frustrated with the direction a specific narrative will take that they will ultimately just focus on the negatives and not take into account that what they resent about one medium may be very well present -- in the very same fashion -- in the other medium they could vastly prefer.

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