DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations.

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
Bergamo
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 968
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:18 am

Re: DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations.

Post by Bergamo » Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:52 am

Black Hawk wrote:
Bergamo wrote:I don't think the leak puts him far below full strength, but he simply cannot go all out all the time, which is why it's inferior to MSSB. I think God-Blue is to Frieza's final form as MSSB is to Frieza's buff 100% form.
Do you think it would be accurate to say that SSJ Red/SSJ Blue switching and Perfected SSJ Blue are very close in power/abilities, Perfect SSJ Blue just barely beating it out due to sealing off its ki entirely to prevent any sort of loss? I imagine it would take a pretty lengthy battle to push the SSJ Red/SSJ Blue ability far enough to drain SSJ Blue substantially enough.
MSSB is a significant increase due to the fact that Goku can go all out without losing a drop of stamina. God-Blue is good at maximizing the power of Blue, but it's more of a prototype of the MSSB form rather than an alternative.
My explanations for the events of my favorite current manga.

DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations

User avatar
Black Hawk
Regular
Posts: 532
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2014 1:09 pm
Location: Beacon Academy

Re: DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations.

Post by Black Hawk » Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:00 am

Bergamo wrote:MSSB is a significant increase due to the fact that Goku can go all out without losing a drop of stamina. God-Blue is good at maximizing the power of Blue, but it's more of a prototype of the MSSB form rather than an alternative.
With that in mind, there's something I'm now curious about. Which would happen first: A Saiyajin swapping between SSJ Red and SSJ Blue loses too much stamina due to his leaking ki and can no longer match his opponent or the same Saiyajin hits his limit at containing his ki within himself as a perfected SSJ Blue against the same opponent? I have a feeling it may be the former, since SSJ Red also leaks ki, though at a slower rate than SSJ Blue. If that's the case, then perfected SSJ Blue truly is the far superior option of the two, I'd imagine.
"Reign supreme? In your dreams; you'll never make me bow.
Kick my ass? I'm world-class and Super Saiyan now."

I BURN - Jeff Williams feat. Casey Lee Williams, RWBY Volume 1 Soundtrack

User avatar
Bergamo
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 968
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:18 am

Re: DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations.

Post by Bergamo » Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:14 am

Black Hawk wrote:
Bergamo wrote:MSSB is a significant increase due to the fact that Goku can go all out without losing a drop of stamina. God-Blue is good at maximizing the power of Blue, but it's more of a prototype of the MSSB form rather than an alternative.
With that in mind, there's something I'm now curious about. Which would happen first: A Saiyajin swapping between SSJ Red and SSJ Blue loses too much stamina due to his leaking ki and can no longer match his opponent or the same Saiyajin hits his limit at containing his ki within himself as a perfected SSJ Blue against the same opponent? I have a feeling it may be the former, since SSJ Red also leaks ki, though at a slower rate than SSJ Blue. If that's the case, then perfected SSJ Blue truly is the far superior option of the two, I'd imagine.
I think that God-Blue probably lasts longer because it's never shown any stamina issues. There seems to be a trend that forms that are weaker take less stamina.
My explanations for the events of my favorite current manga.

DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations

User avatar
Black Hawk
Regular
Posts: 532
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2014 1:09 pm
Location: Beacon Academy

Re: DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations.

Post by Black Hawk » Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:17 am

Bergamo wrote:I think that God-Blue probably lasts longer because it's never shown any stamina issues. There seems to be a trend that forms that are weaker take less stamina.
That's a good point. I wonder if a Saiyajin could master his perfected SSJ Blue state to the point of being able to maintain its stamina equally to swapping between Red and Blue. I also wonder what lasts longer: a Saiyajin trying to maintain regular SSJ Blue with its stamina drain but lesser effort due to not sealing off his ki or the same Saiyajin trying to maintain perfected SSJ Blue. Vegeta ran out of steam really quickly when using regular Blue twice in rapid succession, after all.
"Reign supreme? In your dreams; you'll never make me bow.
Kick my ass? I'm world-class and Super Saiyan now."

I BURN - Jeff Williams feat. Casey Lee Williams, RWBY Volume 1 Soundtrack

User avatar
Bergamo
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 968
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:18 am

Re: DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations.

Post by Bergamo » Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:21 am

Black Hawk wrote:
Bergamo wrote:I think that God-Blue probably lasts longer because it's never shown any stamina issues. There seems to be a trend that forms that are weaker take less stamina.
That's a good point. I wonder if a Saiyajin could master his perfected SSJ Blue state to the point of being able to maintain its stamina equally to swapping between Red and Blue. I also wonder what lasts longer: a Saiyajin trying to maintain regular SSJ Blue with its stamina drain but lesser effort due to not sealing off his ki or the same Saiyajin trying to maintain perfected SSJ Blue. Vegeta ran out of steam really quickly when using regular Blue twice in rapid succession, after all.
In the ToP every time Goku stops fighting, even if it's only for a minute, he turns of MSSB. Since it doesn't leak ki, there shouldn't be a problem with turning it off and then turning it back on again.
My explanations for the events of my favorite current manga.

DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations

User avatar
Black Hawk
Regular
Posts: 532
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2014 1:09 pm
Location: Beacon Academy

Re: DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations.

Post by Black Hawk » Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:29 am

Bergamo wrote:In the ToP every time Goku stops fighting, even if it's only for a minute, he turns of MSSB. Since it doesn't leak ki, there shouldn't be a problem with turning it off and then turning it back on again.
Good point. That's kind of ironic; perfected SSJ Blue would be easier to maintain than regular SSJ Blue then. Vegeta couldn't even use 10% of his power just by using it twice, yet swapping between Red and Blue or sealing in one's ki enable using it multiple times in rapid succession.
"Reign supreme? In your dreams; you'll never make me bow.
Kick my ass? I'm world-class and Super Saiyan now."

I BURN - Jeff Williams feat. Casey Lee Williams, RWBY Volume 1 Soundtrack

User avatar
Tectorman
Regular
Posts: 599
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:19 pm

Re: DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations.

Post by Tectorman » Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:03 am

Bergamo wrote:
Tectorman wrote:
Bergamo wrote:I'm pretty sure the statement of Black being the strongest un-fused character is anime only, because he's obviously weaker than MSSB Goku from the same arc. Besides, Black had been fighting Trunks before he fought Vegeta, so assuming SSR=SSB, he should already be fatigued at the start of the fight.
Then why was Vegeta even bothering with the God/Blue Switch in the first place? If he's stronger than Black initially, then they would both face the same stamina issues and both power down at the same rate. And Vegeta would maintain his power advantage over Black the entire time. So why bother with the G/B Switch? Who is he saving his stamina for? Black and Zamasu are the only opponents there. Goku's handling Zamasu. Vegeta in this scenario already has Black outclassed. Merged Zamasu wasn't in the equation yet. So what was the purpose?

On the other hand, putting Black just above Vegeta to where he needs the Switch to outlast Black AND THEN gain the advantage allows this strategy to have a point.

Also, I'm fairly sure MSSB doesn't factor into the "Black > all unfused, nondeific characters" comparison. Anime Goku technically had SSBKKx10 available, but Black was still rated higher. So I figure the statement only applies to what the characters could relaibly use. That includes Vegeta's G/B Switch, but not Goku's MSSB (I think he had only figured out the idea and hadn't ever put it into practice) or his SSBKKx10 (which he put on the back burner after the U6 tournament and didn't even use during his beam struggle against MZ).
Dismissing MSSB is stupid. The statement doesn't apply to the manga.
Vegeta uses God/Blue to draw out more power from SSB, where as Goku uses MSSB to draw out 100% power. Black is stronger than Vegeta using regular Blue, but weaker than him when he draws out more power. This is clearly portrayed in the manga.
I'm not dismissing MSSB. I'm saying the "Black > other unfused characters" statement by necessity is dismissing SSBKKx10. And that dismissal allows the dismissal of MSSB.

Black, according to the comparison, is supposed to be more powerful than Goku. If we're not dismissing SSBKKx10, then that gives the following chain:

Goku Black SSR > Goku SSBKKx10 > Merged Zamasu (unmutated) > Goku SSBKKx2 > Goku SSB

Based on Goku being able to overpower MZ's blast without the Kaioken and managing to knock him away with a Kaioken kick, MZ, at least at that point, wasn't substantially above what Goku demonstrated. So, what? Was the Potara fusion a downgrade for Black?

Far more palatable would be taking the statement as being in reference to forms that the characters had demonstrated usage of.

Merged Zamasu (unmutated) > Goku Black SSR > Goku SSBKKx10 > Goku SSB

SSBKKx10's placement on the chain is unknown, irrelevant, undemonstrated, and because of that, also not a part of the "Black > unfused characters" statement.

And if we can apply that to the SSBKKx10 in the anime, we can do the same to its manga analogue, the MSSB. Goku had never used it before, never trained for it. At most, he had conceived of the idea, just like anime Goku had conceived of combining SSB with the Kaioken but had never put it into practice until his fight with Hit. So, "MSSB Goku > Black SSR" no more violates the "Black > unfused characters" comparison than "SSBKKx10 > Black SSR" does.

...

What the manga clearly portrays, what Goku outright tells Trunks, is that Blue is powerful but can't be used for long. Prolonged use makes its power drop. Vegeta is avoiding that power drop by avoiding using Blue in a prolonged fashion, by spending all but the split second he makes an attack in God form instead. But the U6 tournament made it very clear that multiple transformations to Blue also drop its power, which is why Vegeta had to spend time in the HTC perfecting the Switch. Everything we're presented says that Vegeta's technique is to avoid the power drop, not increase Blue's power.

When Goku kept avoiding using Blue against Hit, it was because he hadn't yet figured out how to counteract what Hit was doing, or because he was still saving his stamina in case Hit pulled any other tricks out. He wasn't building up to some more-powerful-than-normal explosion of Blue's power, just being prudent about his pacing. Goku tells Trunks that Vegeta in this fight is doing the same thing Goku was doing then, though in a more refined fashion due to his ability to switch multiple times. Ergo, Vegeta Blue (God Switch) also isn't more powerful than Vegeta Blue (Normal), just longer lasting.

You are, however, right in those last statements. Black does start out stronger than Vegeta, even those instances where Vegeta is first switching to Blue, and gets weaker as times passes and Vegeta makes his power last longer. Because he isn't mitigating Rose/Blue's stamina issue while Vegeta is.
Twilight: My library?! My library!! Do you have any idea how many books I had in there?!
Lord Tirek: How many, little princess?
Twilight: Over NINE THOUSAND!!!

User avatar
Black Hawk
Regular
Posts: 532
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2014 1:09 pm
Location: Beacon Academy

Re: DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations.

Post by Black Hawk » Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:22 am

Tectorman wrote:(explanation of Completed SSJ Blue and SSJ Blue Kaiōken not factoring into the "SSJ Rosé Black exceeds all prior character barring destroyers and guide angels" statement)
This is largely how I personally interpret the statement as well. I always found it quite clear that the fullest extent of SSJ Blue's power, let alone adding the Kaiōken, exceeded what SSJ Rosé Black was capable of, given Vegeta defeating him and Goku matching Merged Zamas using SSJ Blue's full power in differing ways (though Bergamo successfully convinced me that Vegeta's method didn't maintain 100% of SSJ Blue's power) and my belief that SSJ Rosé Black didn't measure up to quite 2x SSJ Blue Goku/Vegeta (maybe around 1.5x), as I don't believe Completed SSJ Blue can any more than 2x regular SSJ Blue's abilities, given that applying Completed SSJ Blue's boost to SSJ Blue Vegetto (already speculated to be a match for Beerus) would inflate his power largely out of control above 2x. That's just my belief, though.
"Reign supreme? In your dreams; you'll never make me bow.
Kick my ass? I'm world-class and Super Saiyan now."

I BURN - Jeff Williams feat. Casey Lee Williams, RWBY Volume 1 Soundtrack

User avatar
God Gogeta
Newbie
Posts: 31
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:01 am

Re: DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations.

Post by God Gogeta » Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:19 pm

Highlight and Gist of Black's Transformation:

Black's Base stronger than normal ssj stolen body of Goku. He can put down Trunks easily.
Base form body getting adapted to his soul of Kai with his learned technique he can rival ssb vegeta.

While Fighting God Tier opponents he became adapted to saiyan cells and get hold of Super Saiyan Transformation, indicating he is gaining control of the body.

His transformation to Rose is equivalent of SSB, Mentioning it's unique for him as he is a Kai who surpassed the Saiyan god transformation being in a Saiyan body.
God Gogeta

Post Reply