What is there beyond strength?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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What is there beyond strength?

Post by emperior » Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:11 am

The main theme of the movie seems to be the answer to what is beyond strength. This was already mentioned during the Tournament of Power when Jiren asked the same question to Goku.
I have always taken for granted that Goku seeks more power just because he loves fighting strong opponents, and as a true martial artist his life revolves around his never ending seek for self-improvement. Could this movie change things up, and delve more into Goku’s character, while also giving him some development and a clear defined goal for his quest to power?

What do you think of this? And what could the answer to the question be, if there is an answer?
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Re: What is there beyond strength?

Post by dbgtFO » Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:59 am

Wan't the Jiren quote a mistranslation though?

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Re: What is there beyond strength?

Post by Cipher » Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:59 am

The question Jiren means to pose is what the application for that strength is. Motivation for motivation's sake, or for purely selfish curiosity, is inconceivable to Jiren. For him, it comes with the end goal of either preventing or reddressing the kinds of tragedies that befell his friends and family. He can't wrap his head around Goku's motiveless drive.

(Incidentally, this is why Jiren vs. Goku really might have worked as a climax if better executed: There's a lot of duality there between a character who is phenomenally strong, envisions selfless applications for his strength, but distances himself from others and is in fact succumbing to a fundamentally selfish desire in how he'd use his wish, versus Goku, weaker but upwardly motivated, and purely selfish about his own improvement, but who constantly draws others to him for mutual improvement and is selfless about anything not related to his own growth.)

If they're bringing that question up again, perhaps part of Goku's arc involves, finally, envisioning some outlet for his power beyond his own curiosity and growth. That might make sense if his interactions with Oob, at last taking on a serious student, are maintained as the ending point. It would also help reposition that ending from its role in the original run, where it was yet another moment of Goku feeding his own selfish curiosity. Something like that would indeed need to happen now, as he's experienced multiple worlds of power beyond Boo's and ten years of dreary normalcy have been taken off the table. Maybe something in the Broly movie puts that conversation into Dragon Ball again.

Or maybe it doesn't. We'll see.

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Re: What is there beyond strength?

Post by Mister_Popo » Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:14 am

If you would give a literal answer to that question, it's retorical. Goku answered it himself in the trailer. Beyond horizons there are stronger opponents and realms of power to discover.
In the first place i think it's meant as a fan teaser for the return of Ultra Instinct, but there could very well be an explaination beyond that as well.

Goku, for a long time after the Buu saga, thought he only had to live a quiet and easy life, there would never ever be someone a strong as Majin Buu to challenge him.
At the end Majin Buu, within the events of DBZ, was the strongest opponent. There would never be a stronger opponent possible within U7.

The world of Dragon Ball always expand in way they show us and introduce new realms of power that weren't feasible at first.
Goku never thought the day would come he would finally meet Beerus. At the end of BOG he confirmed he never thought such realm of power existed.

All the events that happened during Super opened up his eyes and definitetely the Tournament of Power.
Yes, there finally were new horizons to discover. It gave him new strength and motivation to train again and prepare for the next fight.
Strength at such isn't truely a goal, it's something one uses to acclaim a certain goal.
If we see some evolution in Goku's character it's he doesn't only train for selfish reasons anymore, he has realized that what comes along with great power is a great responsibility.
He has somehow matured as a fighter.
If his friends and universe are at threat, he is prepared to utterly exceed his limits to meet that higher goal.

Of course UI isn't the first time Goku 'broke his limits'. The classic transformations are also an example of this. But first something had to go terrible wrong (for example Freeza blowing up Krillin).
Goku had to be confronted with a loss and use that as a motivator te become stronger, because it was needed.
The transformation into UI did, in a sense, transform Goku in a more responsable / mature fighter: his friends were his motivation to fight, he had to break his limits to keep them saved from getting erased.

At the end Goku is faced with his own mortality. He knows, if his power were to live on, he has to train someone that could be stronger than he has become.
He sees that image of his future self in Uub. When he meets Uub, another layer of the older motivation of Goku comes down: he can accept someone finally can become stronger than himself, for the sake of humanity, for the sake of the world.
That is truely what lies beyond strength: to put the ultimate, more nobel goal of why someone uses it above the pure selfish act of owning it.

At that point Goku will really become more mature in my opinion. This line however, could be a first phase of acceptance, strength as such may not be a goal for a person as such, it really has to add up to something.
One day, if he finally departs to the other worlds, there must have been some reason for his legacy to have existed in the first place.
There had to be reason why his power and knowledge about martial arts existed.
The same reason why humanity gives its knowledge and wizdom through to future generations, to hopefully make a better world (or universe) based on that heritage.

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Re: What is there beyond strength?

Post by LifeLight » Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:43 pm

'What do you see. Beyond That Strength?'

When I saw that pop up I instantly applied it to Broly, as if it was a subtle nod to the fans acknowledging that they know Broly's popularity, which is mainly due to his impressive strength and rage. I'm hoping that it means that they're wanting the fans to see past that after the movie is done, to see an actual developed character that has meaning and purpose. Of course that wagers on if they decide to go into more depth with Broly.

If they can make us like Broly for other aspects aside from being strong and being a saiyan, they've won. That's what I believe lies beyond that strength.
Last edited by LifeLight on Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:46 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: What is there beyond strength?

Post by Mister_Popo » Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:44 pm

"Non Goku-specific" "beyond" could also refer to the origins of strength of the Saiyans.
So this message can be applied in different ways: not only 'what's still there for Goku to discover' but also more in general: 'why can Saiyans become that powerful'?

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Re: What is there beyond strength?

Post by emperior » Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:58 pm

Mister_Popo wrote:"Non Goku-specific" "beyond" could also refer to the origins of strength of the Saiyans.
So this message can be applied in different ways: not only 'what's still there for Goku to discover' but also more in general: 'why can Saiyans become that powerful'?
That could be possible, but in a poster distributed at the Comic Con where we can see a planet, Herms translated the large phrase in sideways letters: “Beyond true strength, there is----“
(https://mobile.twitter.com/Herms98/stat ... 1810315265)
It really seems like this will be the theme of the movie. That’s very interesting, I hope it will be handled well.
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Re: What is there beyond strength?

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:27 pm

Popularity

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Re: What is there beyond strength?

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:49 pm

emperior wrote:
Mister_Popo wrote:"Non Goku-specific" "beyond" could also refer to the origins of strength of the Saiyans.
So this message can be applied in different ways: not only 'what's still there for Goku to discover' but also more in general: 'why can Saiyans become that powerful'?
That could be possible, but in a poster distributed at the Comic Con where we can see a planet, Herms translated the large phrase in sideways letters: “Beyond true strength, there is----“
(https://mobile.twitter.com/Herms98/stat ... 1810315265)
It really seems like this will be the theme of the movie. That’s very interesting, I hope it will be handled well.
It certainly is posing a lot of questions moreso than ResF where it simply was "worst wish in history" and then Toriyama being like here's a story about Freeza coming back alive... Enjoy!

He alone for this film talked about Goku/Broly/Vegeta having different destiny's, how everything links up too Freeza and then the producer teasing a multi layered story and of course the trailer backs that up. ResF looking back in hindsight with the information we were given wasn't surprising in how it turned out.

It's added such a layer of intrigue to the film.

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Re: What is there beyond strength?

Post by AnimeNation101 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:30 pm

Well, original line used for the theme of the movie was “the origin of the saiyans’ strength”. I’d think it has to do with S-Cells, Yamoshi’s spirit, stuff like that.

But “beyond strength” is very interesting to think about. It’s either talking about something abstract or its basically just another way of saying “whats the origin of strength. Something like that. Either way, it will be interesting to see what this theme amounts to in the movie
I called it that Gogeta, Bardock, and something Broly related would be in the movie before it was even announced that it was a Broly movie. 8)

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Re: What is there beyond strength?

Post by R. Daneel Olivaw » Fri Jul 27, 2018 4:39 pm

Goku has defeated Jiren
"Jiren, I've found what lies beyond strength."

"And what is that?"

"Instinct."

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Re: What is there beyond strength?

Post by TheOne » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:44 am

I’m going to laugh if it turns out to be something like “friendship” after seeing some answers people put out. Broly ultimately wanting a friend after being used as a tool.
How i predict the tournament will end:

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Re: What is there beyond strength?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:33 pm

What is beyond strength is intelligence. Even absolutely infinite power is useless if you do not have the know-how to apply it correctly. Raw power can always be defeated by intellect. But of course that is just my philosophy.
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Re: What is there beyond strength?

Post by Waluigiman » Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:20 pm

Beyond strength is [spoiler]love.[/spoiler]

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Re: What is there beyond strength?

Post by shadowfox87 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:48 am

A lot of martial arts grandmasters ask themselves the same thing. There are very few people who reach the top, but once they do, they ask "What's next?". Then, they either wait for someone stronger to challenge them or they seek spiritual enlightenment. Since they've already trained their body, their mind is next. This is what leads to meditation and we've seen Jiren do that a lot.

One of the reasons that Roshi entered the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai as Jackie Chun was because he didn't want his students to win. As long as Goku got 2nd place, he would think there is someone stronger and would train harder. Someone like Jiren, who is already at the top and remains unchallenged, will ask the question, "What lies beyond strength?". Jiren stopped believing in friends and relationships because he was betrayed by his friends when he needed them the most. He relies only on his own power and his own sense of justice. He does it without any reward.

One of the things I really hated that the anime did was, make Jiren attack the audience. I feel that is completely out of his character to do and yet, they made him be portrayed as a bad guy temporarily.

One day we'll find out what Jiren's "selfish" wish was and I think we'll be surprised.
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Re: What is there beyond strength?

Post by AnimeNation101 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:03 am

shadowfox87 wrote:A lot of martial arts grandmasters ask themselves the same thing. There are very few people who reach the top, but once they do, they ask "What's next?". Then, they either wait for someone stronger to challenge them or they seek spiritual enlightenment. Since they've already trained their body, their mind is next. This is what leads to meditation and we've seen Jiren do that a lot.

One of the reasons that Roshi entered the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai as Jackie Chun was because he didn't want his students to win. As long as Goku got 2nd place, he would think there is someone stronger and would train harder. Someone like Jiren, who is already at the top and remains unchallenged, will ask the question, "What lies beyond strength?". Jiren stopped believing in friends and relationships because he was betrayed by his friends when he needed them the most. He relies only on his own power and his own sense of justice. He does it without any reward.

One of the things I really hated that the anime did was, make Jiren attack the audience. I feel that is completely out of his character to do and yet, they made him be portrayed as a bad guy temporarily.

One day we'll find out what Jiren's "selfish" wish was and I think we'll be surprised.
Or like many other cool plot points, we’ll never get a follow up and will either have to wait for an interview or never get the answer
I called it that Gogeta, Bardock, and something Broly related would be in the movie before it was even announced that it was a Broly movie. 8)

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Re: What is there beyond strength?

Post by JazzMazz » Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:57 am

AnimeNation101 wrote:
shadowfox87 wrote:A lot of martial arts grandmasters ask themselves the same thing. There are very few people who reach the top, but once they do, they ask "What's next?". Then, they either wait for someone stronger to challenge them or they seek spiritual enlightenment. Since they've already trained their body, their mind is next. This is what leads to meditation and we've seen Jiren do that a lot.

One of the reasons that Roshi entered the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai as Jackie Chun was because he didn't want his students to win. As long as Goku got 2nd place, he would think there is someone stronger and would train harder. Someone like Jiren, who is already at the top and remains unchallenged, will ask the question, "What lies beyond strength?". Jiren stopped believing in friends and relationships because he was betrayed by his friends when he needed them the most. He relies only on his own power and his own sense of justice. He does it without any reward.

One of the things I really hated that the anime did was, make Jiren attack the audience. I feel that is completely out of his character to do and yet, they made him be portrayed as a bad guy temporarily.

One day we'll find out what Jiren's "selfish" wish was and I think we'll be surprised.
Or like many other cool plot points, we’ll never get a follow up and will either have to wait for an interview or never get the answer
Wasn't his wish never to go through the pain and suffering he experienced in his past again?

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Re: What is there beyond strength?

Post by emperior » Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:42 am

JazzMazz wrote:
AnimeNation101 wrote:
shadowfox87 wrote:A lot of martial arts grandmasters ask themselves the same thing. There are very few people who reach the top, but once they do, they ask "What's next?". Then, they either wait for someone stronger to challenge them or they seek spiritual enlightenment. Since they've already trained their body, their mind is next. This is what leads to meditation and we've seen Jiren do that a lot.

One of the reasons that Roshi entered the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai as Jackie Chun was because he didn't want his students to win. As long as Goku got 2nd place, he would think there is someone stronger and would train harder. Someone like Jiren, who is already at the top and remains unchallenged, will ask the question, "What lies beyond strength?". Jiren stopped believing in friends and relationships because he was betrayed by his friends when he needed them the most. He relies only on his own power and his own sense of justice. He does it without any reward.

One of the things I really hated that the anime did was, make Jiren attack the audience. I feel that is completely out of his character to do and yet, they made him be portrayed as a bad guy temporarily.

One day we'll find out what Jiren's "selfish" wish was and I think we'll be surprised.
Or like many other cool plot points, we’ll never get a follow up and will either have to wait for an interview or never get the answer
Wasn't his wish never to go through the pain and suffering he experienced in his past again?
It was never explicitly stated, but in the end the point was that Jiren doesn’t care about his wish anymore and has gotten over it, which is why we are also not told it because it’s no longer important. The point is that Jiren has let go of his past.

Maybe the manga will tell what the wish is, but I don’t mind.
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Re: What is there beyond strength?

Post by Waluigiman » Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:16 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:A lot of martial arts grandmasters ask themselves the same thing. There are very few people who reach the top, but once they do, they ask "What's next?". Then, they either wait for someone stronger to challenge them or they seek spiritual enlightenment. Since they've already trained their body, their mind is next. This is what leads to meditation and we've seen Jiren do that a lot.

One of the reasons that Roshi entered the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai as Jackie Chun was because he didn't want his students to win. As long as Goku got 2nd place, he would think there is someone stronger and would train harder. Someone like Jiren, who is already at the top and remains unchallenged, will ask the question, "What lies beyond strength?". Jiren stopped believing in friends and relationships because he was betrayed by his friends when he needed them the most. He relies only on his own power and his own sense of justice. He does it without any reward.

One of the things I really hated that the anime did was, make Jiren attack the audience. I feel that is completely out of his character to do and yet, they made him be portrayed as a bad guy temporarily.

One day we'll find out what Jiren's "selfish" wish was and I think we'll be surprised.
Funny, I actually thought that Jiren had Ultra Instinct and he was empowered by his meditation and I was expecting Goku to copy him.

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Re: What is there beyond strength?

Post by JazzMazz » Sat Aug 04, 2018 1:02 am

emperior wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
AnimeNation101 wrote: Or like many other cool plot points, we’ll never get a follow up and will either have to wait for an interview or never get the answer
Wasn't his wish never to go through the pain and suffering he experienced in his past again?
It was never explicitly stated, but in the end the point was that Jiren doesn’t care about his wish anymore and has gotten over it, which is why we are also not told it because it’s no longer important. The point is that Jiren has let go of his past.

Maybe the manga will tell what the wish is, but I don’t mind.
It wasn't explicitly stated, but it was extremely inferred that Jiren's motivation was to never suffer the trauma he experienced in his past again.

The entire point of Jiren's character arc in the anime at least, is learning to remake connections with others and getting over his fear of losing, as was demonstrated when Jiren accepted his defeat at the hands of Universe 7, and grinned it off.

I think Jiren accepting his defeat, and forming a connection with others, is what allowed him to get over his desire never to experience the trauma of his past, which he associates with losing, as well as his desire to use the Dragonballs.

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