YAMOSHI was the SSGod from Battle of Gods. No one else.

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Re: YAMOSHI was the SSGod from Battle of Gods. No one else.

Post by AnimeNation101 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:20 pm

emperior wrote:
AnimeNation101 wrote:
BlueBasilisk wrote:I put that bit of lore into the same limbo status as Tarble. Toriyama's new info about SSG doesn't contradict that story, but Super (neither the anime nor the manga as far as I can recall) brings it up. So it might still be applicable, it might not. But I think Toriyama could easily use it again by having that person be the righteous Saiyan Yamoshi's spirit was seeking, and then it found Goku and Vegeta later. That SSG died and accomplished little to nothing so it's not going to make a big impact on the lore either way, I think.

As for why Vegeta didn't know it, it's a story about righteous saiyans trying to overthrow the evil ones who became the Saiyans we know. I can easily see why that story might not get passed around as much as the one about the first Super Saiyan.
Yes but if it really happened, the how come King Kai didn’t tell Goku about it in that dbz episode (that was written by toriyama) talking about the Saiyans history from being on Planet Plant to present times? Surely King Kai would have known of such an important Planet Vegeta event since he know about all the other ones.
You can’t bring up King Kai’s word from a filler as proof. Not a single God knew of Super Saiyan God so why should King Kai of all people. The guy didn’t even know it was Freeza who destroyed Vegeta.

I believe the legend told in Battle of Gods is no longer valid as it wasn’t mentioned in the retelling and Toriyama basically retconned the SSG legend from Shenron to be Yamoshi’s. It’s the same “righteous Saiyan gains immense power but dies outnumbered by the evil ones” and it happened on Sadala.
I think this is enough proof of it.
The lore was written by Toriyama so its not really a filler scene. And of course “the destroyer of planet Vegeta” was left obscure or misleading because if not is would be a spoiler. My point still stands. King Kai knew all that other saiyan history of Planet Vegeta stuff. Of course he would know about a Saiyan God appearing and causing a Civil War on Planet Vegeta. Of course no other gods would know if that happened because Beerus could have been asleep, Shin does a trash job of watching the universe, and Whis probabaly just wasn’t looking at the time. And all the other gods are from other universes. The event would have been contained to just one Planet. One that King Kai happened to know loads about. It doesn’t make sense that he would miss something that big. But he didn’t because it never happened.
I called it that Gogeta, Bardock, and something Broly related would be in the movie before it was even announced that it was a Broly movie. 8)

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Re: YAMOSHI was the SSGod from Battle of Gods. No one else.

Post by emperior » Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:28 pm

AnimeNation101 wrote:
emperior wrote:
AnimeNation101 wrote: Yes but if it really happened, the how come King Kai didn’t tell Goku about it in that dbz episode (that was written by toriyama) talking about the Saiyans history from being on Planet Plant to present times? Surely King Kai would have known of such an important Planet Vegeta event since he know about all the other ones.
You can’t bring up King Kai’s word from a filler as proof. Not a single God knew of Super Saiyan God so why should King Kai of all people. The guy didn’t even know it was Freeza who destroyed Vegeta.

I believe the legend told in Battle of Gods is no longer valid as it wasn’t mentioned in the retelling and Toriyama basically retconned the SSG legend from Shenron to be Yamoshi’s. It’s the same “righteous Saiyan gains immense power but dies outnumbered by the evil ones” and it happened on Sadala.
I think this is enough proof of it.
The lore was written by Toriyama so its not really a filler scene. And of course “the destroyer of planet Vegeta” was left obscure or misleading because if not is would be a spoiler. My point still stands. King Kai knew all that other saiyan history of Planet Vegeta stuff. Of course he would know about a Saiyan God appearing and causing a Civil War on Planet Vegeta. Of course no other gods would know if that happened because Beerus could have been asleep, Shin does a trash job of watching the universe, and Whis probabaly just wasn’t looking at the time. And all the other gods are from other universes. The event would have been contained to just one Planet. One that King Kai happened to know loads about. It doesn’t make sense that he would miss something that big. But he didn’t because it never happened.
Dude that filler scene had some ideas by Toriyama but it was contradicted shortly after when it was revealed that Freeza destroyed the planet. That’s just filler that Toriyama won’t acknowledge nowadays, and has most likely forgotten of it. King Kai was also on BoG and he heard of Beerus’ search for a SSG yet he had no idea about what that was.
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Re: YAMOSHI was the SSGod from Battle of Gods. No one else.

Post by AnimeNation101 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:41 pm

emperior wrote:
AnimeNation101 wrote:
emperior wrote: You can’t bring up King Kai’s word from a filler as proof. Not a single God knew of Super Saiyan God so why should King Kai of all people. The guy didn’t even know it was Freeza who destroyed Vegeta.

I believe the legend told in Battle of Gods is no longer valid as it wasn’t mentioned in the retelling and Toriyama basically retconned the SSG legend from Shenron to be Yamoshi’s. It’s the same “righteous Saiyan gains immense power but dies outnumbered by the evil ones” and it happened on Sadala.
I think this is enough proof of it.
The lore was written by Toriyama so its not really a filler scene. And of course “the destroyer of planet Vegeta” was left obscure or misleading because if not is would be a spoiler. My point still stands. King Kai knew all that other saiyan history of Planet Vegeta stuff. Of course he would know about a Saiyan God appearing and causing a Civil War on Planet Vegeta. Of course no other gods would know if that happened because Beerus could have been asleep, Shin does a trash job of watching the universe, and Whis probabaly just wasn’t looking at the time. And all the other gods are from other universes. The event would have been contained to just one Planet. One that King Kai happened to know loads about. It doesn’t make sense that he would miss something that big. But he didn’t because it never happened.
Dude that filler scene had some ideas by Toriyama but it was contradicted shortly after when it was revealed that Freeza destroyed the planet. That’s just filler that Toriyama won’t acknowledge nowadays, and has most likely forgotten of it. King Kai was also on BoG and he heard of Beerus’ search for a SSG yet he had no idea about what that was.
Yeah. Because King Kai never heard of SSGod. It never happened on Planet Vegeta. Battle of Gods just complicates things. Seeing as how the Battle of Gods movie came after, the Battle of Gods movie is the one that creates a plot hole. And it makes that much more sense that it ends up getting retconned by Toriyama’s interview. The King Kai scene is just more of a reason as to why B.o.G’s movie legend was BS. And no. The scene was just some filler scene with some ideas by Toriyama. All the lore from that scene came from Toriyama. The only info from that scene that was contradicted was the Freeza reveal. Everything else, is still viable and it just as important lore as any other Toriyama-made lore.
I called it that Gogeta, Bardock, and something Broly related would be in the movie before it was even announced that it was a Broly movie. 8)

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Re: YAMOSHI was the SSGod from Battle of Gods. No one else.

Post by Tectorman » Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:53 pm

AnimeNation101 wrote:
Tectorman wrote:
Simere wrote:That says nothing about Yamoshi even being a Super Saiyan God, much less the one and only.
Agreed. That interview says Yamoshi was the first Super Saiyan, he and five other good Saiyans led a failed rebellion, and afterwards, his spirit sought after six more good Saiyans. Ergo, his spirit, drawn to six good Saiyans and, after the ritual, inhabiting one of them for a brief time, was the first SSjG. The same SSjG we saw in the movie fighting those Oozaru. I fail to see how that part of the movie got retconned.

I mean, had the interview said something to the effect of "and his spirit never found a group of six good Saiyans prior to Goku and his friends in the BoG arc", then yes, his wandering spirit would be, prior to Goku himself, the closest thing to a SSjG we ever had, and the movie scene with the original SSjG would be retconned. But the interview doesn't seem to say or remotely imply that.
Its simple. Toriyama is literally asked if the first Super Saiyan and the Super Saiyan God from Battle of Gods are the same person. And he says Yamoshi in a certain sense. The “certain sense” part is left up to interpretation but it seems to imply that Yamoshi’s spirit is technically a super saiyan god as his spirit became that of the spirit of the Super Saiyan God transform. Because he became a spirit, that was what allowed a ritual to be possible to create a Super Saiyan God. So to an extent, his spirit must have has some godlike qualities to it.

This means that the B.o.G movie’s legend has been contradicted as for one, Yamoshi’s battle does not take place on Planet Vegeta and two, Yamoshi does not actually transform into ssgod during his fight.
Sorry, not buying it. Yamoshi is the spirit of the original SSJG on the lookout for six good Saiyans doing that ritual to empower one of them to become a SSJG. It's what he did for Goku in BoG. That didn't make Goku somehow cease to be Goku and become Yamoshi instead. So if we can say that Goku can become a SSJG via the ritual without an identity crisis, why can't What's-His-Name from the movie also have become a SSJG, likewise through the ritual, likewise empowered by Yamoshi's spirit, and likewise without an identity crisis?

You can't argue that Yamoshi is the spirit of the original SSJG that makes other SSJGs possible and that the movie depiction is debunked unless you (1) argue that this makes Goku also "not a SSJG", (2) argue that SSJG Goku cannot be Goku or even "Goku and Yamoshi, but only in a sense" but instead must be "Yamoshi, period, no Goku involved", or (3) like I said above, point out the specific phrasing that states and states explicitly that Yamoshi's spirit never empowered anyone prior to Goku.

As for the King Kai episode, why are you arguing for its relevance? If you're arguing that an interpretation of this interview can retcon the movie, can't it also be argued that the movie, newer than that episode, retcons said episode if the episode contradicts the movie? And if the episode MUST be included, even if it contradicts the movie, MUSTN'T the movie also be included, even if it contradicts an interpretation of this interview?

Or, as an alternative, if this interview has multiple interpretations and some of them contradict previous material and others don't, simply go with the interpretations that don't. And if that can't be done, if this interview can be read to agree with the movie and it can be read to agree with the King Kai episode, but the movie and the King Kai episode cannot agree, then shouldn't we, as you yourself say, favor the newer material over the older?
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Re: YAMOSHI was the SSGod from Battle of Gods. No one else.

Post by HECTOR4 » Sat Aug 04, 2018 2:07 pm

I rescued this from the topic of Super Dragon Ball Heroes:
AnimeNation101 wrote:For one, in the movie, the battle took place on Planet Vegeta. Thats not the case anymore. And for another, Yamoshi never actually goes SSGod while fight but me and some others think that technically Yamoshi could be considered a SSG by being the actual spirit of the form since his spirit is what made the possiblilky of the form SSGod possible through a ritual.

And we know that the legend in the movie was talking about Yamoshi because thats what Toriyama said. So yeah. Everything has been kinda clouded by retconns, contradictions, etc.
No, the legend of BoG and the Toriyama interview can connect perfectly. And no, there's nothing retconed ^^ I'm going to do a copy-paste of everything I've told you, and some things you did not answer them:

At no time in the interview is it said that Yamoshi became the spirit of the SS God, or SS God, or nothing with this, simply that he wandered through space in search of 6 Saiyans and that this is related to the ritual of the SS God (as specified by Tori-Robot in the interview). Yamoshi is simply related to the ritual of the SS God, I repeat, nowhere is it said that he is the SS God or the spirit of the SS God or anything like that.

In DBS, Shenron already mentions that there was a first ritual and the interview is implied that the first ritual occurred in a different place to Sadara (a first ritual that took place outside of Sadara, because Yamoshi traveled through space, and I don't think he wandered through space to return to Sadara again and perform the ritual there. He traveled through space to look for kindly Saiyans in another place, surely in the planet Vegeta, it can not be another place). So there was a first ritual of the SS God, in that ritual Yamoshi didn't become SS God, if not another Saiyan. And after that the spirit of Yamoshi met with the old namekian, who wrote the story of the ritual (and nothing about Yamoshi, as far as we know).

The history of the Saiyans may have been so, both in BoG and in DBS:

Yamoshi became Super Saiyan and died at the hands of evil Saiyans in planet Sadara. The spirit of Yamoshi leaves Sadara and travels through space to another place, looking for 6 kindly Saiyans with whom to perform the SS God's ritual. Later, the Saiyans fight between them and destroy Sadara planet during the battle. The surviving Saiyans came to planet Plant, settled down and had no problems with the Tsufruians for years and years. But between them they fought. A group of Saiyans performed the ritual of the SS God and tried to annihilate the evil Saiyans (Yamoshi's spirit participates in the ritual), but they failed. And after that the spirit of Yamoshi met with the old namekian, who wrote the story of the ritual. The evil Saiyans took control and over time the kindred of those Saiyans began to attack the Tsufruians, until in the end they annihilated them and they took control of the planet Plant/Vegeta.

Everything works equally with the version of BoG as with that of DBS.
AnimeNation101 wrote: I dont really care. At this point you just don’t agree with my evidence and claims and i don’t agree with yours. And unless Toriyama incorporates Yamoshi and ssgod lore stuff into an arc or movie, it will probabaly stay like that. So agree to disagree.
Haha, OK ^^ I'm also going to leave all that out there so people can read it and judge this possibility ^^
Last edited by HECTOR4 on Sat Aug 04, 2018 2:14 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: YAMOSHI was the SSGod from Battle of Gods. No one else.

Post by Ju-NanaGo » Sat Aug 04, 2018 2:09 pm

To be honest... I do think that not even Toriyama knows the story.

For me the whole Yamoshi wandering spirit shit makes no sense after all

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Re: YAMOSHI was the SSGod from Battle of Gods. No one else.

Post by AnimeNation101 » Sat Aug 04, 2018 2:23 pm

HECTOR4 wrote:I rescued this from the topic of Super Dragon Ball Heroes:
AnimeNation101 wrote:For one, in the movie, the battle took place on Planet Vegeta. Thats not the case anymore. And for another, Yamoshi never actually goes SSGod while fight but me and some others think that technically Yamoshi could be considered a SSG by being the actual spirit of the form since his spirit is what made the possiblilky of the form SSGod possible through a ritual.

And we know that the legend in the movie was talking about Yamoshi because thats what Toriyama said. So yeah. Everything has been kinda clouded by retconns, contradictions, etc.
No, the legend of BoG and the Toriyama interview can connect perfectly. And no, there's nothing retconed ^^ I'm going to do a copy-paste of everything I've told you, and some things you did not answer them:

At no time in the interview is it said that Yamoshi became the spirit of the SS God, or SS God, or nothing with this, simply that he wandered through space in search of 6 Saiyans and that this is related to the ritual of the SS God (as specified by Tori-Robot in the interview). Yamoshi is simply related to the ritual of the SS God, I repeat, nowhere is it said that he is the SS God or the spirit of the SS God or anything like that.

In DBS, Shenron already mentions that there was a first ritual and the interview is implied that the first ritual occurred in a different place to Sadara (a first ritual that took place outside of Sadara, because Yamoshi traveled through space, and I don't think he wandered through space to return to Sadara again and perform the ritual there. He traveled through space to look for kindly Saiyans in another place, surely in the planet Vegeta, it can not be another place). So there was a first ritual of the SS God, in that ritual Yamoshi didn't become SS God, if not another Saiyan. And after that the spirit of Yamoshi met with the old namekian, who wrote the story of the ritual (and nothing about Yamoshi, as far as we know).

The history of the Saiyans may have been so, both in BoG and in DBS:

Yamoshi became Super Saiyan and died at the hands of evil Saiyans in planet Sadara. The spirit of Yamoshi leaves Sadara and travels through space to another place, looking for 6 kindly Saiyans with whom to perform the SS God's ritual. Later, the Saiyans fight between them and destroy Sadara planet during the battle. The surviving Saiyans came to planet Plant, settled down and had no problems with the Tsufruians for years and years. But between them they fought. A group of Saiyans performed the ritual of the SS God and tried to annihilate the evil Saiyans (Yamoshi's spirit participates in the ritual), but they failed. And after that the spirit of Yamoshi met with the old namekian, who wrote the story of the ritual. The evil Saiyans took control and over time the kindred of those Saiyans began to attack the Tsufruians, until in the end they annihilated them and they took control of the planet Plant/Vegeta.

Everything works equally with the version of BoG as with that of DBS.
AnimeNation101 wrote: I dont really care. At this point you just don’t agree with my evidence and claims and i don’t agree with yours. And unless Toriyama incorporates Yamoshi and ssgod lore stuff into an arc or movie, it will probabaly stay like that. So agree to disagree.
Haha, OK ^^ I'm also going to leave all that out there so people can read it and judge this possibility ^^
Fair enough. If only all forum discussions could end this well
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Re: YAMOSHI was the SSGod from Battle of Gods. No one else.

Post by HECTOR4 » Sat Aug 04, 2018 2:39 pm

AnimeNation101 wrote: Fair enough. If only all forum discussions could end this well

Exactly. A discussion doesn't mean that people should fight or insult each other ^^

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Re: YAMOSHI was the SSGod from Battle of Gods. No one else.

Post by Meshack » Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:46 am

Yamoshi isn’t the Super Saiyan God from Battle of Gods. Yamoshi died before Super Saiyan God was even a thing. Yamoshi is only the legendary Super Saiyan.

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Re: YAMOSHI was the SSGod from Battle of Gods. No one else.

Post by Meshack » Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:47 am

Ju-NanaGo wrote:To be honest... I do think that not even Toriyama knows the story.

For me the whole Yamoshi wandering spirit shit makes no sense after all
The story is fiction. A story with seven magical balls that summons a dragon to grant wishes doesn’t make sense.

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Re: YAMOSHI was the SSGod from Battle of Gods. No one else.

Post by ekrolo2 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:12 am

Toriyama says he was the first Super Saiyan, and God is something he only sought after his death.

I don't know how Yamoshi's spirit can wander, you can get reincarnated, keep your body and get to train or you keep your body and go to hell. This wandering spirit thing doesn't make a lick of sense as per the lore.
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Re: YAMOSHI was the SSGod from Battle of Gods. No one else.

Post by Draconic » Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:22 am

ekrolo2 wrote:Toriyama says he was the first Super Saiyan, and God is something he only sought after his death.

I don't know how Yamoshi's spirit can wander, you can get reincarnated, keep your body and get to train or you keep your body and go to hell. This wandering spirit thing doesn't make a lick of sense as per the lore.
Maybe evil Saiyans are considered "demons" :lol:
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Re: YAMOSHI was the SSGod from Battle of Gods. No one else.

Post by ekrolo2 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:28 am

Draconic wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:Toriyama says he was the first Super Saiyan, and God is something he only sought after his death.

I don't know how Yamoshi's spirit can wander, you can get reincarnated, keep your body and get to train or you keep your body and go to hell. This wandering spirit thing doesn't make a lick of sense as per the lore.
Maybe evil Saiyans are considered "demons" :lol:
I forgot about the demons and holy fuck, Toriyama would be an actual, scientifically quantifiable moron for doing this.
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Re: YAMOSHI was the SSGod from Battle of Gods. No one else.

Post by Draconic » Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:36 am

ekrolo2 wrote:
Draconic wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:Toriyama says he was the first Super Saiyan, and God is something he only sought after his death.

I don't know how Yamoshi's spirit can wander, you can get reincarnated, keep your body and get to train or you keep your body and go to hell. This wandering spirit thing doesn't make a lick of sense as per the lore.
Maybe evil Saiyans are considered "demons" :lol:
I forgot about the demons and holy fuck, Toriyama would be an actual, scientifically quantifiable moron for doing this.
That would be fucking stupid I agree, but there is precedence for wandering souls, so a new concept introduced wouldn't break the lore. Would just clutter the Saiyan backstory even further.

Beyond Saiyans having infinite potential, having multiple transformations ranging from primitive (Oozaru) to godly (God) or combos of both (Broly's/Kale's), evolving beyond needing tails, getting Zenkais and barely getting old, giving them some form of 'cheating death' would go beyond ridiculous.
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