Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by Dragono » Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:26 am

Super is obviously coming back and this movie is going to make a lot of money so success is guaranteed for modern dragon ball.

That being said, it be a lie to say this stuff is universally loved, in fact i say many people have made a career out of bashing the bloodly hell out of modern dragon ball and the fandom is kind of vitrolic right now, We are kind of like the star wars fandom right now and we haven't had our SOLO moment yet.

Personally, i have enjoyed modern dragon ball with the exception of resurrection f though i am not blind to its flaws and thats what i want to talk about. I want to ask those who have not given up on this franchise, not the folks who 80% to 99% hate it and critique every little aspect of it yet still watch out of some obligation.

What are your problems with the modern dragon ball, why do they bother you and how do you purpose they fix it?

These next 4 months will have a lot of conflict within the fandom because by far the most polarizing thing under the dragon ball name is getting a movie. Honestly, there is no better representation for the state of the current fandom than him. The hatred and love for this guy is on equal parring an dfar surpass those in the middle.

I will start with my gripe. I want dragon ball to pick its path and stay with it. Battle of gods expanded the universe and god hierarchy, Resurrection f brought freeza back, U6 tournament introduced new characters and god hierarchy some more , goku black brought future trunks back, The universal survival tournament introduced 95 characters , a whole bunch of settings and now broly is coming back .

It seems that we keep moving forward then going back and thats not ok with me. I don't care whats done as long as its done good. But I do want a consistent view. If we are just going to keep back, ok. There is a lot of stuff Toriyama dropped because he was working on a weekly manga. You can expand on that and add more stuff to the dragon ball world.

If we are just keep going forward thats fine too, the past is the past, we are in the now. Lets bring osme new shit to compete with the new shit of today.

If we are going to new stuff to go back to all stuff, thats ok too, a perfect blend if you will. But I just want them to pick one and stick with it.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by emperior » Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:39 am

My main grievance with modern Dragon Ball is how it looked. Yep, I like Super a lot but I always disliked its visuals with a passion. Thank God we are finally over it with the new movie, and all evidence points towards this new style being kept.
It’s exactly what I wanted modern DB to look like, as it mixes Toriyama’s new style with his old ones, the colors are those of the manga and they are also using a few techniques to give it a rougher look like in the old days. THAT is the type of fanservice I wanted to see!
I will get to my other problem with modern DB, as it’s clear how the show relies on its past. This is the bad type of fanservice. I am fine with the amount of fanservice Toriyama himself is putting as it’s not that different from how he was doing things back in the day, but pointless fanservice, ,mostly from Toei, is what I can’t accept. Fanservice for the sake of fanservice is just bad.
And I’m not talking about Future Trunks, Black Goku, Kale or Broly. I am talking about the constant callbacks, the references to old glory moments, the repeat of the same plot points from the past, the overuse of the same techniques over and over (mainly Kamehameha and Final Flash). These elements do not change the story in any way.
As for this aspect, Future Trunks arc felt perfect in my opinion as it had almost none of this problems! The fanservice was done well, and it never felt pointless. Hell, Black fired three Kamehamehas at best, Goku fired one or two, Vegeta fired a Final Flash and a Galick Gun, Trunks same as his father but with one more Galick Gun and I liked how he used new techniques, as the easy way would have been for him to use his iconic burning attack over and over.
This problem is mainly present in the ToP, but I will get to it later.

This doesn’t mean the FT arc was perfect. My main issues with the arc is that it needed a few more episodes (the pacing was perfect until episode 61), better consistency, a short explanation for Trunks’ Rage power-up, and some consistent battle damage. Battle damage is a serious issue in Super, where the visuals don’t really show what the characters have been through, and the complete lack of blood doesn’t help either.

I also think the Tournament of Power was especially inconsistent in how it showed each character firing off their best moves over and over with little impact on their stamina. I would have preferred to see new moves or generic ki blasts in this case, to keep the ultimate moves as special. Goku’s fight with Jiren was also a repeat of his fight with Freeza on Namek, so I feel like they could have been slightly more creative.
I’m also not a fan of Vegeta achieving a bluer and more muscular form of Blue with no explanation whatsoever. The overly bright aura definitely didn’t help it.

I don’t care about the going forward and going back with the stories. There isn’t really a rule to that, and I’m fine if this allows them to make more stories.
I also wished Toriyama decided to go over the end of his manga, so that we can finally step into uncharted territory without the already established ending keeping the tension lower.
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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by sintzu » Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:00 am

Dragono wrote:What are your problems with modern dragon ball and how do you purpose they fix it ?
I want to start by saying I've enjoyed the hell out of modern DB and I can't wait for the new movie and Super's return but I do have problems that they seriously need to look into.

1- The arc lengths : Each of the manga's 10 arcs had a lot going on in them such as everything that went down on Namek while Super's (only) villain arc (Black) was very straightforward and short. There was so little going on that it could've been a 90-120 minute long movie. Once Super returns I want it to justify spreading its stories across multiple episodes, I want long story arcs with multiple things going on at the same time to give the feeling that I'm watching an actual arc and not a stretched out story more suitable for a movie.

2- The types of stories : Not counting the movie retellings, 2 of Super's 3 arcs were tournaments with the TOP covering over a year's worth of episodes (55) so not only do I want more variety in the types of stories they tell but I also want them to better manage the time they dedicate for each. The Tournament itself was 35 episodes long, there were 20 episodes before that dedicated towards setting things up and another 9 slice of life episodes before that. All those episodes could've easily been reorganized to give us another full arc. Also worth noting is that the 6 stories we've gotten so far (BOG, RF, Super & Broly) aren't connected as they should be. when you look at the original manga every arc leads smoothly into the next while the stories here are very stand alone. One story ends and the next begins, it doesn't have the sense of one long running story that's just split up into arcs.

3- The movies : 2 of the 3 movies we've gotten revolved around old ideas (Broly and Freeza). I personally liked RF and think that Broly is going to be amazing but that doesn't change the fact that those aren't original ideas like BOG was. They probably already have a rough idea about when the 4th movie will release so from now till then is more than enough time to come up with something original.

4- The concepts : The multiverse is one of the most exciting things we've gotten but it hasn't been well utilized at all. Instead of getting a truly different universe in U6 where new concepts could've been introduced we ended up with alternate Saiyans, Freeza and Namakians, all being very under developed. Why not take advantage of that to give us more original characters like Hit ? Same thing with the other universes, instead of taking their time they rushed in 6 new universes for the tournament and ended up wasting 5 of them.

5- The production : Although it improved as time went on but there's no denying the amount of problems Super's production went through form start to even near the end. Underwhelming fights to very stiff and lifeless animation really held Super back from reaching its full potential. I understand that it was rushed into production at a moment's notice but that's not the case now as they probably have a return date already set so they need to make sure things aren't as bad as they were the first time around.

6- The writing : The writing was all over the place from Goku acting normal one minute to acting like a child the other, Vegeta going back and forth form his well developed self to his annoying Cell arc personality, ChiChi being a meme of herself, etc. They need to get someone who can keep things consistent form start to finish, maybe by setting guidelines that the writers will have to follow as the show goes on. Power levels (not numbers) were a major issue. I'm not saying we need to know exactly how strong A is to B but they need to make it clear where these characters stand in comparison to one another.

7- The secondary characters : I think it's safe to say everyone's happy with how well (beyond my expectations) Vegeta was handled from BOG all the way up to the TOP but there were 2 just as important characters that got completely swept under the rug for the vast majority of modern DB, Gohan and Piccolo. Gohan seemed to be getting back into things during the TOP but it looks like he's out again based on what we know form Broly as he doesn't even have a character design yet, same thing with Piccolo. Gohan wanted to find a power no one else has so why not build up on that ? we know about the namakina book of legends so let Piccolo go find it. There's so much these 2 can add to an arc so hopefully they take advantage of it.

Of course I didn't go into every detail as I'm writing this off the top of my head so chances are what I missed will be brought up by others but taking care of these 7 or at least reducing them will greatly improve things moving forward.
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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by BlueBasilisk » Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:19 am

I don't like that it's 5 years on and we're still still stuck in the armpit of Z between Buu and Uub. I know Toriyama thinks that he made the EoZ characters too old or whatever but Bulma, Satan, Chi Chi and the kids are the only ones who look noticeably older and Bulma offered a solution to her age in-universe. We already know where this is going and I'd like to get there sooner rather than later.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by Grimlock » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:22 am

Dragono wrote:What are your problems with the modern dragon ball, why do they bother you and how do you purpose they fix it?
My problems with modern Dragon Ball is that it is stuck in the past (literally and ironically). It reuses the same old ideas seen when Dragon Ball was still being formed, we still have endless tournaments getting most of the screentime instead of bringing more sagas with an actual plot and with things going on.

I mean, the core of the story can be similar but if you manage to handle things as different as possible and the more you manage to do so, the better and more interesting things will be. See Prison Planet saga for Dragon Ball Heroes, it once again kind of revolved around the Dragon Balls (even though its previous saga also dealt with them) but the context is entirely different and we have other characters getting highlighted.

Since I already mentioned a game, this is what get me mostly confused. We have reached a point where games are far more interesting than what the so-called "main series" presents. While the latter bestows us with retellings and tournaments one right after the other, the games bestow us with Android 21 (and using an idea that Toriyama came up with in interviews), Dark Dragon Balls, Prison Planet (both the latter using the "alternate dimensions" concept, also from Toriyama) and we have a game dealing with Time Patrol vs Time Breakers (Xenoverse). I really would like to know why the series can't come up with something out of the box, that is not afraid of the unexpected, it won't harm the series more than being stuck in the safe zone does.

Modern Dragon Ball keeps revolving around the same characters and bringing old ones who already have their character development done, ones that don't contribute and bring nothing to the table at all. Piccolo, Goten, Trunks, Majin Buu... They all need more than what is giving to them, Piccolo needs a transformation at this point and we still have to see Majin Buu helping the "Z/Super fighters" in a real deal. Goten and Trunks need to be developed on their own, separated from each other a bit, because Goten still lives in Trunks' shadow. Not only that, their heights are completely wrong. One of the things I loved the most in Dragon Ball is how characters age as the time goes by, SIX YEARS has passed since Majin Buu saga but Goten and Trunks erroneously continues to be the same height. And when it comes to Trunks, it is a plothole because Future Trunks was the same age as present Trunks is now and he was taller. It may be a minor thing but it really triggers me. I want the characters to grow, mentally and physically too.

It also misses a lot of opportunities, mostly because of the comfort zone. As you could see in the paragraph above, some ideas come directly from Akira Toriyama, so why he does not use them in the series? Why some ideas and concepts are kept in the interviews only for games to explore them instead of the series? Why haven't we seen Makaio and Makaioshin yet? Why we only see the "alternate dimension" being expanded upon in games and not in the series? Why only Xenoverse 2 took advantage of the hole Goku Black opened with his scythe and used it in a glorious way but not the series? Why it keeps bringing back characters like Broly and Freeza instead of Bardock, Gine, and mainly King Vegeta?

It's bad and it saddens me that everything is made just to please the majority instead of focusing on a story, give people what they want and all that is to it are endless fights/tournaments without anything really interesting behind them, without thought put into it and without any real goal that leads to something even greater and satisfactory it the end. It's fanserice for the sake of fanservice and stuck in the safe zone, that prevents modern Dragon Ball from being a better show, one that you feel like rewatching coutless times and you will always do it with a big smile on your face. I unfortunately don't feel like and I'm not willing to watch this series anytime soon, maybe if I forgot how bad it is I'll probably do it but nowadays? No chance in hell.

No wonder the "main series" is dead to me, hell the last good thing about it was Movie 14. Dragon Ball Minus was a piece of crap, Movie 15 was the very meaning of garbage, and Dragon Ball Super... Two retellings, two tournaments and just one saga with a plot but still a "mediocre" saga due to its lack of daring. We're not in 20th century anymore, this series needs to evolve and needs to change its formulaic mode. Interesting characters and nice interactions revolving around a catchy story that will use anything to move itself forward and be interesting, even if it's a gimmick that normally it wouldn't be used in the past is all I ask for.
Dragono wrote:It seems that we keep moving forward then going back and thats not ok with me.
That is not okay indeed. When you think they finally got something right, they don't explore it and proceeds to focus on something else entirely. They introduced the Multiverse concept but we still don't know anything about it. They introduced Zeno and angels but we still don't know anything about them. They Introduced Zarama and Super Dragon Ball but we still don't know anything about them. They introduced a Tsufurujin and a Yadorat from Universe 6 but not only they were never expanded a bit, they were in another Universe without any explanation. Kinda annoying this attitude from the series, but as I mentioned above, it only harms itself instead of doing a good thing.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by Doctor. » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:56 am

It lacks originality and ambition. Toriyama seems content on writing short, self-contained, small-scope arcs which focus on one or two neat concepts, rather than utilize the world and characters he has created to their fullest potential. Toyotaro lacks the creativity to do anything interesting with them and really bring Toriyama's plots to life. He's constantly referencing the original series and his chapters are filled with exposition explaining every little thing, even stuff that should be obvious and you could infer from context. He's very obviously a fan and not a writer. And the anime tries to expand on Toriyama's napkin plots with their own unique, interesting ideas but they never go anywhere with them, and mostly just fall back on rehashing moments from the original series in order to cater to the casual fans. At the same time, it feels like a lot of the staff doesn't understand what made Dragon Ball unique and special and they just attempt to apply modern Shounen tropes and clichés to the series.

So, get some new blood in because Super lacks any kind of identity whatsoever. The manga desperately tries to be DBZ again and the anime desperately tries to be generic battle Shounen number 4982. For all of its faults, GT felt different. It has its own feel, even if it takes a while until it gets its own identity and separates itself completely from its parents. Bring someone in who understands the series enough to want it to push forward and go into new territory, but not someone who is obsessed with referencing the previous series at every possible opportunity like Toyotaro.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by sintzu » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:10 pm

Doctor. wrote:At the same time, it feels like a lot of the staff doesn't understand what made Dragon Ball unique and special and they just attempt to apply modern Shounen tropes and clichés to the series.
This is a really good point that shows the negative side of bringing something back decades later after its original end. DB is to this day one of the most influential manga ever written but due to a lack of understanding by the people working on it today it's trying to either copy its past or other tropes brought on by other work instead of being the one leading things like it did before. Same thing applies to Toriyama, the stories he's written so far are short contained stories more suitable for self contained movies, not something that's being as one long story simply separated into arcs. I guess that's what happens when you have completely new people work on something this old or there being such a huge time gap that the people who did work on it are so changed that they're basically not the same people they were back during the original run.
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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by emperior » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:19 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Dragono wrote:What are your problems with the modern dragon ball, why do they bother you and how do you purpose they fix it?
Not only that, their heights are completely wrong. One of the things I loved the most in Dragon Ball is how characters age as the time goes by, SIX YEARS has passed since Majin Buu saga but Goten and Trunks erroneously continues to be the same height. And when it comes to Trunks, it is a plothole because Future Trunks was the same age as present Trunks is now and he was taller. It may be a minor thing but it really triggers me. I want the characters to grow, mentally and physically too.
Jaco’s manga explains that Saiyans stay in a kid’s body for a long time, and they use it to their advantage to deceive their opponents and later they have a rapid growth into a body more suitable for battle. This is exactly what happened to Goku.
Kid Trunks is different from his future counterpart, apparently. I wouldn’t mind him finally growing though.
I agree how they still act way too much like kids. The same is true for Marron.
One reason why I want Toriyama to finally go over his manga ending is specifically because I want to see Goten and Trunks finally doing things.
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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by Master Xar » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:36 pm

sintzu wrote:
Doctor. wrote:At the same time, it feels like a lot of the staff doesn't understand what made Dragon Ball unique and special and they just attempt to apply modern Shounen tropes and clichés to the series.
This is a really good point that shows the negative side of bringing something back decades later after its original end. DB is to this day one of the most influential manga ever written but due to a lack of understanding by the people working on it today it's trying to either copy its past or other tropes brought on by other work instead of being the one leading things like it did before. Same thing applies to Toriyama, the stories he's written so far are short contained stories more suitable for self contained movies, not something that's being as one long story simply separated into arcs. I guess that's what happens when you have completely new people work on something this old or there being such a huge time gap that the people who did work on it are so changed that they're basically not the same people they were back during the original run.
Well me personally I like this direction of keeping it a more “at home” and somewhat grounded feeling a lot better, people always questioned why there is such a weird distancing or line between the DB and DBZ fandom, and why so many people hated DB Evolution, and Minus, it’s all in the mood or feel that captures the original audience. It’s why you see Freeza favored over Cell and Buu since he is the real “hooking” or driving force of DBZ’s first two arcs he is the first (Big Bad) while Cell and Buu are less favored because their arcs and moods are so “stand-alone” and may alienate what captured the original audience, not to mention how the fandom is STILL going to this day about power levels and constantly compare any later transformation to the first SSJ form. There is a preference for an original work and what captures a lot of what initially gathered the audience in the first place. It’s all in the sense of “flow” and how the story keeps its approach or has the same “feeling” that captures its original audience.

Super I feel has a better “flow” of being woven into the franchise, it introduces new concepts while reeling itself in with standalone stories that “somewhat” relate to the narrative or themes.

BOG, Champa Arc, and the TOP all work and flow into each other relatively well from both originality AND character-driven. The arcs that are more standalone and plot-driven (ROF, Future Trunks, Broly) all serve to reel the both the audience and the overall story back to the “at home” feeling with DBZ.

I personally love the balancing act here, it’s not too safe, but not too alienating to where it doesn’t feel like a sequel to DBZ. I like it in my opinion.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by Dragono » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:48 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Dragono wrote:What are your problems with the modern dragon ball, why do they bother you and how do you purpose they fix it?
My problems with modern Dragon Ball is that it is stuck in the past (literally and ironically). It reuses the same old ideas seen when Dragon Ball was still being formed, we still have endless tournaments getting most of the screentime instead of bringing more sagas with an actual plot and with things going on.

I mean, the core of the story can be similar but if you manage to handle things as different as possible and the more you manage to do so, the better and more interesting things will be. See Prison Planet saga for Dragon Ball Heroes, it once again kind of revolved around the Dragon Balls (even though its previous saga also dealt with them) but the context is entirely different and we have other characters getting highlighted.

Since I already mentioned a game, this is what get me mostly confused. We have reached a point where games are far more interesting than what the so-called "main series" presents. While the latter bestows us with retellings and tournaments one right after the other, the games bestow us with Android 21 (and using an idea that Toriyama came up with in interviews), Dark Dragon Balls, Prison Planet (both the latter using the "alternate dimensions" concept, also from Toriyama) and we have a game dealing with Time Patrol vs Time Breakers (Xenoverse). I really would like to know why the series can't come up with something out of the box, that is not afraid of the unexpected, it won't harm the series more than being stuck in the safe zone does.

Modern Dragon Ball keeps revolving around the same characters and bringing old ones who already have their character development done, ones that don't contribute and bring nothing to the table at all. Piccolo, Goten, Trunks, Majin Buu... They all need more than what is giving to them, Piccolo needs a transformation at this point and we still have to see Majin Buu helping the "Z/Super fighters" in a real deal. Goten and Trunks need to be developed on their own, separated from each other a bit, because Goten still lives in Trunks' shadow. Not only that, their heights are completely wrong. One of the things I loved the most in Dragon Ball is how characters age as the time goes by, SIX YEARS has passed since Majin Buu saga but Goten and Trunks erroneously continues to be the same height. And when it comes to Trunks, it is a plothole because Future Trunks was the same age as present Trunks is now and he was taller. It may be a minor thing but it really triggers me. I want the characters to grow, mentally and physically too.

It also misses a lot of opportunities, mostly because of the comfort zone. As you could see in the paragraph above, some ideas come directly from Akira Toriyama, so why he does not use them in the series? Why some ideas and concepts are kept in the interviews only for games to explore them instead of the series? Why haven't we seen Makaio and Makaioshin yet? Why we only see the "alternate dimension" being expanded upon in games and not in the series? Why only Xenoverse 2 took advantage of the hole Goku Black opened with his scythe and used it in a glorious way but not the series? Why it keeps bringing back characters like Broly and Freeza instead of Bardock, Gine, and mainly King Vegeta?

It's bad and it saddens me that everything is made just to please the majority instead of focusing on a story, give people what they want and all that is to it are endless fights/tournaments without anything really interesting behind them, without thought put into it and without any real goal that leads to something even greater and satisfactory it the end. It's fanserice for the sake of fanservice and stuck in the safe zone, that prevents modern Dragon Ball from being a better show, one that you feel like rewatching coutless times and you will always do it with a big smile on your face. I unfortunately don't feel like and I'm not willing to watch this series anytime soon, maybe if I forgot how bad it is I'll probably do it but nowadays? No chance in hell.

No wonder the "main series" is dead to me, hell the last good thing about it was Movie 14. Dragon Ball Minus was a piece of crap, Movie 15 was the very meaning of garbage, and Dragon Ball Super... Two retellings, two tournaments and just one saga with a plot but still a "mediocre" saga due to its lack of daring. We're not in 20th century anymore, this series needs to evolve and needs to change its formulaic mode. Interesting characters and nice interactions revolving around a catchy story that will use anything to move itself forward and be interesting, even if it's a gimmick that normally it wouldn't be used in the past is all I ask for.
Dragono wrote:It seems that we keep moving forward then going back and thats not ok with me.
That is not okay indeed. When you think they finally got something right, they don't explore it and proceeds to focus on something else entirely. They introduced the Multiverse concept but we still don't know anything about it. They introduced Zeno and angels but we still don't know anything about them. They Introduced Zarama and Super Dragon Ball but we still don't know anything about them. They introduced a Tsufurujin and a Yadorat from Universe 6 but not only they were never expanded a bit, they were in another Universe without any explanation. Kinda annoying this attitude from the series, but as I mentioned above, it only harms itself instead of doing a good thing.
You do know this thread was for people who have not given up, right?

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by Dragono » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:50 pm

Doctor. wrote:It lacks originality and ambition. Toriyama seems content on writing short, self-contained, small-scope arcs which focus on one or two neat concepts, rather than utilize the world and characters he has created to their fullest potential. Toyotaro lacks the creativity to do anything interesting with them and really bring Toriyama's plots to life. He's constantly referencing the original series and his chapters are filled with exposition explaining every little thing, even stuff that should be obvious and you could infer from context. He's very obviously a fan and not a writer. And the anime tries to expand on Toriyama's napkin plots with their own unique, interesting ideas but they never go anywhere with them, and mostly just fall back on rehashing moments from the original series in order to cater to the casual fans. At the same time, it feels like a lot of the staff doesn't understand what made Dragon Ball unique and special and they just attempt to apply modern Shounen tropes and clichés to the series.

So, get some new blood in because Super lacks any kind of identity whatsoever. The manga desperately tries to be DBZ again and the anime desperately tries to be generic battle Shounen number 4982. For all of its faults, GT felt different. It has its own feel, even if it takes a while until it gets its own identity and separates itself completely from its parents. Bring someone in who understands the series enough to want it to push forward and go into new territory, but not someone who is obsessed with referencing the previous series at every possible opportunity like Toyotaro.
You do know this was for people who have not given up, right?

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by sintzu » Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:00 pm

Grimlock wrote:Some ideas come directly from Akira Toriyama, so why he does not use them in the series? Why some ideas and concepts are kept in the interviews only for games to explore them instead of the series ?
Toriyama said multiple times that he's not working alone and ideas such as Broly being brought back was from the "editorial office", whatever that is. The problem is you've got a staff of writers who can't seem to think out of the box and Toriyama himself isn't the writer he once was so he's not pushing for comepletely new idea and instead is just giving them and fans what they want. That's not to say we haven't gotten anything new but like you said, they never realize their full potential because they seem to not want to spend too much time away from familiar concepts.
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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by Master Xar » Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:10 pm

I will say though I don’t get Grimlock’s whole “movement” he has been on, I understand the feel of wanting the franchise to move into it’s own direction and build on concepts. But you look at it through a very flawed lense.

You see a concept and you think “more expanding on this concept = better” you think that just because the series implies or introduces new things and concepts and simply that the fans want them to be expanded on, means that it should.

...which is already fanservice in and of itself from that logic. Both fans “want” something more or less out of this so both are already fanservice.

Me personally I love the series not expanding too much on the concepts and things introduced in the story because it always keeps us curious, it keeps us thinking, it keeps us discussing and talking about the series.

If every concept and thing in Dragonball were expanded upon and explained in tight little bow there wouldn’t really be much to talk about now would there? It’s all in what keeps you curious. Sure you want the series to expand on it’s ideas. But think about it like this.

Are you absolutely sure that you want to?

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by sintzu » Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:13 pm

Master Xar wrote:If every concept and thing in Dragonball were expanded upon and explained in tight little bow there wouldn’t really be much to talk about now would there? It’s all in what keeps you curious. Sure you want the series to expand on it’s ideas. But think about it like this.

Are you absolutely sure that you want to?
This is a good point but there's a difference between showing too much and too little. They don't need to fully explore everything but they should be doing more than they've done.
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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by Doctor. » Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:17 pm

Dragono wrote:You do know this was for people who have not given up, right?
What's your point?

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by Master Xar » Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:29 pm

sintzu wrote:
Master Xar wrote:If every concept and thing in Dragonball were expanded upon and explained in tight little bow there wouldn’t really be much to talk about now would there? It’s all in what keeps you curious. Sure you want the series to expand on it’s ideas. But think about it like this.

Are you absolutely sure that you want to?
This is a good point but there's a difference between showing too much and too little. They don't need to fully explore everything but they should be doing more than they've done.
Well that depends on you. I personally think that Super has introduced and expanded on a fair bit of it’s concepts and ideas like the GoDs, the other 12 universes, and even expanding on some old ideas like the roles of the Kais, the Potara while leaving some in the air and keeping a balance of that “DBZ” feel in there and even some well delivered Original Dragonball comedy.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by Mister_Popo » Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:38 pm

It's nice to have a constructive debate about Super as well. I have noticed TOEI put a lot of effort into improving the series, and that's why i basically still do tend to give Super the benefice of the doubt.
If you compare the first five episodes with the five last episodes, that does not say everything, but it does say a lot. They've made a gigantic step forward, and they keep on working on further improvements.
I understand the major critics, but some additional optimism may be justified. With the break they are taking now, we may expect they take that time to re-evaluate the series and fix the production problems.
There are several clear signs on the wall they are making efforts to improve the show.

Super was no love at first sight for me neither. I was just rewatching the old Z-anime and i noticed i still preferred the old anime at a given point. During that period we were at the ROF-arc in Super, which wasn't very well animated.
I hung on and decided to give it another chance. I kept following the series and with the battle against Hit in U6 arc i saw a great battle that i really considered to be "Dragon Ball-worthy".
I got intrested in Super and the Future Trunks-arc made clear to me there were still intresting stories to tell about the Dragon World, Toriyama wasn't burned up and still was able to provide the seeds for good stories.
The animation kept improving along with the stories and during the second half of the series, i found myself hooked again, just like in the old days.

This was supposed to be a thread to be critical .. right? Lol, all right, i'll make an effort to give my constructive feedback.
If the series continue, i would like them (keep on) improving these things:

More consistent animation quality
There were episodes with great animation quallity, mostly the major battles in the arc. It's normal for those episodes to stand out. There were other episodes, during FT or TOP-arcs that were still animation-wise not really good. I tend to forgive them a lot. But if i see Goku having two faces or Jiren looking like Elmer Fudd, massive re-used animation, bad artwork ... Please guys, work on the consistency a little bit more.

Less re-use of banked action scenes
Super did have a tight production scheme. I know sometimes banked action scenes are needed, it's in every anime. In Super's case, most notably in TOP, it became too obvious. Nothing against banked animation, bit in an ideal scenario they should use it less often.

One editor / supervisor for the anime like Toyotara is for the manga
It's important to keep consistency in the story, facts musn't contradict within a few episodes time. One supervisor is needed when you don't have a manga like back in the days where everything is based on.

More consistent powerscaling
For the best known shounen fight anime of the world consistent scaling is important. Even now we are discussing about two-base-theories, ridiculously strong baseforms and the unexpected return of SSG. Trunks can't normally slice Zamasu because he's way slower and weaker than the fusion, Jiren should have one shotted Goku and Vegeta by a long term during TOP, there is no point in Beerus only using 0, xxxxxx .. % of his power against SSG Goku (Storylines becomes a little bit unbelievable if you consider those facts).

Fanservice is no shame, but please don't overdo it ...
I thought Kale was the Broly reboot. Now with the new movie, Broly is basically gonna get a second reboot.
When you bring in characters, give them a reason to shine within new story, don't use them as bate. I don't have to see Piccolo, Master Roschi, Krillin, Tien in every episode.
I rather have them in less episodes but i'd like them do something really meaningful in the story for a change.

Bring stories we can't predict
This hangs along with the latter point. We all like original stuff, don't make it predictable.
If we couldn't have predicted the script and still thought it was a good story, then we've witnessed a truely original and creative product.
Why can't Vegeta surpass Goku for a change?
Dare to innovate and don't stay rusted in old patterns.

Give other characters the opportunity to shine
Goku and Vegeta are the main characters. In Z they were as well. In Z though i truely had the impression other characters like Gohan, Piccolo, Goten and Trunks got the chance to shine before Goku and Vegeta took on the main villain.
It will create a more versatile story if they would use other characters more usefully.

Not every episode can be spectacular but give them a meening within the story
Officially Super does not have filler. There are still quite some episodes that don't seem to have a true purpose in the story.
The TOP-arc was great, but some episodes were basically 'filler' inside the arc, for instance when Piccolo got eliminated.
First U4 seemed to be a big threat and at the end it appears to be a hoax, which didn't make sense after the purposed rivalry between Beerus and Quietela.
The same with Beerus losing Champa.
Gohan at one point during TOP seemed to get more emotionally involved with the loss of a Universe.
Later on in the show, nothing more is done with those facts.
There are too much loose story-ends that tend to go 'nowhere'.

Give more explaination why things happen
Of course this is fiction, not everything can be explained. But sometimes very little explaination is given to make it more acceptable, like Trunks Spirit Sword, Vegetas Blue Evolution or the return of SSG to give a few examples.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by Lord Frieza » Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:38 pm

While I liked the US arc since nether the anime or and manga did a good job with it, I honestly that it was simple beyond everyone's involved' s ability to do justice.

I'll get this out of the way, I profered the anime, but in both cases it seems to always boil down to one on one fights anyway. I was really happy about the idea of a Battle Royal, it's by far my most faviort form of formal combat since it more effectively simulates an actual battle, but really it would have been better as just a standerd tournamant since it's far easier to pass, create breathing room and have more going on in the background. For example you could have had some of the gods activly trying to sabatage other universes during the tournament itself.

Which brings me to my second point. Universe 4 was given by far the best buildup second to U11 but they are totally wasted. They had all the right ingredients for a secondery antaganist group, one more out and out villinus then U11but it was all pissed away.
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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:34 pm

Modern Dragon Ball can get FAR too complacent for my liking.

With material like Jaco The Galactic Patrolman, Battle Of Gods and the Champa arc of Dragon Ball Super providing some much needed expansion of the Dragon Ball cosmos, and inherently increasing the variety of stories that can be told, there are some new stories that completely fall back on what made Dragon Ball such a simple yet compelling story, without the sincerity to at least provide some kind of unique spin on its own narrative -- to not make it seem as though its just wanting to recreate Dragon Balls Greatest Hits™.

As much as I wanted to give grief to Super bringing Future Trunks back into the mix and the central antagonist of the Future Trunks arc being "Evil" Goku #74, that arc at least had the creativity to provide an enthralling narrative, distinctive characterization of the central cast and usage of the main characters to gain its own unique identity. As much as I like the Universal Survival arc, that arc was quite guilty with its callbacks that previous material that felt less like a subtle homage to previous material to progress the story in meaningful way, but more of a beat-by-beat recreation of a signature scene known well in the Dragon Ball fandom -- while lacking the nuance and charm -- and feeling generally sloppy in execution. It is basically fan service for the sake of it. And that is something I REALLY resent in any story.

Modern Dragon Ball is very much capable of coming up with wonderfully original concepts within Dragon Ball that not only feel innately liked to the lore of the Dragon Ball, but serves as an avenue for wonderful character growth, progress of abilities among the cast and potentially great future stories. Modern Dragon Ball gave us 11 other universes (with a potential 6 other universes if they pay their cards right), the Hakaishins, God ki, Angels, Ultra Instinct, Zeno, Gods being linked by their life force, the Galactic Patrol, Time Rings, Super Dragon Balls, Zalama, the Namekian Book of Legends and Yamoshi.

But with every wonderful, new concept that is birthed, modern Dragon Ball seem more content to going back to its "old days", with either egregious and unnecessary pandering to Dragon Ball nostalgia or superfluous and self contained stories. Every time modern Dragon Ball material opens a huge door, it seems equally content to close two windows.

The introduction of a multiverse should not have segued into Freeza coming back to for the umpteenth time. Bardock did not need to become the original SSJ or become a more morally scrupulous space pirate. A battle royal featuring eight universe's strongest fighters should not have served as an inconsequential underlining launch pad to Broly getting his FOURTH movie.

The shit I see (Super) Dragon Ball Heroes, with all its flashy material but a complete lack of nuance to convert that material into any kind of meaningful and palatable substance. That junk right there is the real alagmatiation of everything wrong with modern Dragon Ball, and I sure as hell don't want that to be the direction I want the franchise to go to.

That's not to say that fan service is an inherently bad thing, or that you can't attain some good stories out of Dragon Balls "comfort zone". But the franchise eventually needs to move forward in a significant fashion with it's narrative and and create its own image instead of resting on its past glory.

Modern Dragon Ball has brought a hell of a lot of good shit, but it can be much better than it is right now. It just needs someone in a position of power to take that leap of faith and take Dragon Ball into uncharted territory.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:39 pm

I despise how every villain is stronger than the last one. Golden Frieza and Hit being the exception. It's just boring. I can't take Broly seriously when the first original villain that Super 2.0 features will most likely be stronger than Broly.

And it's also nonsensical. Strong or not, a single Saiyan, or a lone Pride Trooper, shouldn't be considered a bigger threat than an immortal and astral being who merged with the very fabric of the cosmos and was transcending time and space.
And now I shall rend the Earth, and cleanse it of all that is impure. So begins the jubilee, heralding the arrival of a divine new world!

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