Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:43 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:I despise how every villain is stronger than the last one.
Dragon Ball has been doing that since day 1.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:47 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
SupremeKai25 wrote:I despise how every villain is stronger than the last one.
Dragon Ball has been doing that since day 1.
A grievance that I had with the old Dragon Ball, and I still have with the modern Dragon Ball. There must be a threshold that cannot be broken, there must be a point when a certain villain has reached the apex and cannot be surpassed anymore. The writers can't go on like this. I thought that Infinite Zamasu would be the greatest villain that Goku and friends would ever face, seeing as he was literally one with the universe. But I guess I was wrong, since apparently Jiren and Broly trash all over Infinite Zamasu.
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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by ekrolo2 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:49 pm

I have to agree with SupremeKai25 on this, we've gotten to the point where the Gods of Destruction are going to be overtaken as the standard moving forward. Jiren already broke the threshold and Broly will have to do the same and everyone who follows them. What then? Spend 3 years catching up Whis then another 3 to the Grand Priest. Okay, what then? We gonna make Goku & Vegeta stronger than Zeno too then reveal that Zeno is just the ruler of one multiverse in a set of an omniverse?!

Yeah, this thing is rapidly reaching a point where it HAS to fracking stop.
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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by Master Xar » Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:21 pm

Well I can definitely agree that Dragonball should stop “upping the ante”’

After Beerus (if this is possibly where the multiverse stops or if the GoDs are all at the same or close level)
I feel that we should stop with the surpassing of the gods, at least as far as on-screen goes. The theme of “surpassing the gods” should definitely stop at Beerus here. Because it’s at this point we are at a point of contention or ridiculousness as far as our suspension of disbelief unless we are to assume they’ll build up a further expansion of the multiverse and reveal that Zeno isn’t the “true god” here (which again isn’t a problem if they execute it well)

I just feel like we need to not go for anymore “surpass the gods” themes to keep the story grounded. Or if the story does decide to do so, it’ll need to shift paradigms, pull a JJBA Stone Ocean rewrite of reality or find some way to get the story back to ground level.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:30 pm

The only way Dragon Ball will abandon the Sorting Algorithm of Evil trope is if skill becomes the determining factor in battles again, rather than going by the old golden rule of "He/She who hits the hardest, wins". But that very likely won't happen. Just having the next "big bad" being bigger and badder than the last "big bad" is Dragon Ball's modus operandi when it comes to storytelling because it's just the most convenient way of writing a plot.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by ekrolo2 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:32 pm

Master Xar wrote:Well I can definitely agree that Dragonball should stop “upping the ante”’

After Beerus (if this is possibly where the multiverse stops or if the GoDs are all at the same or close level)
I feel that we should stop with the surpassing of the gods, at least as far as on-screen goes. The theme of “surpassing the gods” should definitely stop at Beerus here. Because it’s at this point we are at a point of contention or ridiculousness as far as our suspension of disbelief unless we are to assume they’ll build up a further expansion of the multiverse and reveal that Zeno isn’t the “true god” here (which again isn’t a problem if they execute it well)

I just feel like we need to not go for anymore “surpass the gods” themes to keep the story grounded. Or if the story does decide to do so, it’ll need to shift paradigms, pull a JJBA Stone Ocean rewrite of reality or find some way to get the story back to ground level.
I've long held the belief that DB needs a reboot. The main continuity has become severely bloated and a fresh start would really help it iron out the kinks and set new precedents to follow up on.
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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by Grimlock » Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:50 pm

Dragono wrote:You do know this thread was for people who have not given up, right?
Yes, but:

• It is not like people who have given up cannot state their opinions nonetheless.
• You specified that it is not for people who have given up on the franchise, which is not my case. I have only given up on the main series, not the franchise. Luckily Dragon Ball is not just made up of the series that you watch, we have other ways to enjoy it.
sintzu wrote:Toriyama said multiple times that he's not working alone and ideas such as Broly being brought back was from the "editorial office", whatever that is. The problem is you've got a staff of writers who can't seem to think out of the box and Toriyama himself isn't the writer he once was so he's not pushing for comepletely new idea and instead is just giving them and fans what they want. That's not to say we haven't gotten anything new but like you said, they never realize their full potential because they seem to not want to spend too much time away from familiar concepts.
I know Toriyama is not the only problem here, but you know, since he is who he is, he gets credited even for stuff not entirely his fault, well, since/as long as Toriyama allows it he is partially guilty. At any rate, this "editorial office" then should have been composed of people who really want this franchise to move on to new directions and horizons, not ones that push even further into the safe zone. If they are the source of this whole nonsense then Toriyama should leave and proceed to work with people at Dimps company instead...
emperior wrote:Jaco’s manga explains that Saiyans stay in a kid’s body for a long time, and they use it to their advantage to deceive their opponents and later they have a rapid growth into a body more suitable for battle. This is exactly what happened to Goku.
Kid Trunks is different from his future counterpart, apparently. I wouldn’t mind him finally growing though.
I agree how they still act way too much like kids. The same is true for Marron.
One reason why I want Toriyama to finally go over his manga ending is specifically because I want to see Goten and Trunks finally doing things.
Jaco's explanation does not work on Trunks, his height was already very well established so present Trunks should just obey the laws that Future Trunks imposed. I'll give you Goten though, even though if it was the case to portray Trunks properly, Toei/Toriyama would certainly make Goten taller too. And present Trunks is not different from future Trunks when it comes to biological matter. And yeah, to make things worse, we cannot forget about Marron too.

Agree. I also want a story passed AGE 784, it's high time for a "new cast" or at least give them more screentime and whatnot, which is also something that they are seemingly afraid to do so.
Master Xar wrote:You see a concept and you think “more expanding on this concept = better” you think that just because the series implies or introduces new things and concepts and simply that the fans want them to be expanded on, means that it should.
No dude, stop jumping into conclusions. It does not necessarily mean it will be better, that actually relies on the execution. But here is exactly where video-games come in, the way they handle alternate dimension is fine by me, so they prove that expanding on that concept will only enrich the story, the lore in-universe. If it's gonna be good or bad is another issue, but it's a fact that dealing with other ideas not touched previously may get things at least more interesting. Why do you think the Shadow Dragons stand out this much? They do revolve around a good idea, only that its execution was not good.

Please never say that only because "it's expanding means that it's better" issue about me anymore, you're only making false claims, twisting my words and the way I view things.
Master Xar wrote:...which is already fanservice in and of itself from that logic. Both fans “want” something more or less out of this so both are already fanservice.
Yes, obviously it is a fanservice. I want the series to have a story out of the box, it gives me that kind of story, it is a fanservice. It is not different from people who want endless fights, they get what they want, it is a fanservice. At this point everything is fanservice, it has become impossible to do something without listening to what your fanbase is asking. So I don't really know what was your point here.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by Jesus-is Lord » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:34 pm

1. The art style sucks. It takes away from the tone of the show, the old artystyle made our characters more rough.
2. The notable decrease in story writing. Arcs just kinda happen with little reason or rhyme, no connecting the dots except the tournament sagas. In sayain saga, it led to Namek. And the red ribbon arc created the android arc. Not saying we can't have things happen spontaneously or out of nowhere, but more connection would be nice.
3. Lack of consequence, for our heroes they don't really gain much from their arcs. Like in dragon ball and more so in Z, every arc was ESSENTIAL for the character to be strong enough to face the next arc. Many things and choices were made that created actual consequences for the characters. In super, it's like the arcs don't really mean anything. If the future trunks arc never happened, it wouldn't effect goku and vegeta much for the ToP. Same with the universe 6 arc because goku already was learning kaioken in blue. Even with the ToP arc, based on how goku achieved UI - we can assume he just would have gotten it some other time if we was pushed in the same fashion. The only thing you can say is "Well, you'd lose the character interactions and cool fights". Well, is that really important when furthering an cohesive story? Not really.
P.S - for you manga fans, I know the manga tries to somewhat resolve many of my issues above with dabura vs trunks and how it effects the black ad or goku and vegeta learning new stuff because of this arc - But it dosent do it at the level of of db manga or the Orginal anime.
4. Not enough dynamics in the arc, the arcs are WAY TO SIMPLE and straightforward. Z and db used to give us so many twist and turns before we finally reached an conclusion. Super is to straightforward and predictable. For the manga, It did try with the Black arc and the anime did kinda with the ToP. But, eh.
5. To afraid to expand the world of dragon ball, I guess since neither toei nor Toyo has the real power to, but db keeps re using so many tropes. What made db and Z so great was how innovative it is. Also coming up with some new and creative. Super is re using things from Z and db:
Mafuba
Kai's as villian (which isn't bad)
Kaioken
Mssj blue (though don't get confused mssj blue doesn't work the same way as mssj)
Broly (lol)
Characters in the anime spamming moves from Z
Manga making as many refrences as possible to OG manga

Honestly, dragon ball is just to corporate and fan-governed instead of being Orginal and good. Which isn't a bad thing, and dragon ball is by no means failing or bad. It's on the rise, but hopefully it can do better.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by Dragono » Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:33 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
SupremeKai25 wrote:I despise how every villain is stronger than the last one.
Dragon Ball has been doing that since day 1.
A grievance that I had with the old Dragon Ball, and I still have with the modern Dragon Ball. There must be a threshold that cannot be broken, there must be a point when a certain villain has reached the apex and cannot be surpassed anymore. The writers can't go on like this. I thought that Infinite Zamasu would be the greatest villain that Goku and friends would ever face, seeing as he was literally one with the universe. But I guess I was wrong, since apparently Jiren and Broly trash all over Infinite Zamasu.
Um thats kind of the theme of dragon ball. There is always someone stronger and Goku can break any limit.


Is it dumb, of course. But dragon ball is suppose to be dumb.

Asking for logic now, doesn't make sense.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by Dragono » Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:34 am

Lord Beerus wrote:The only way Dragon Ball will abandon the Sorting Algorithm of Evil trope is if skill becomes the determining factor in battles again, rather than going by the old golden rule of "He/She who hits the hardest, wins". But that very likely won't happen. Just having the next "big bad" being bigger and badder than the last "big bad" is Dragon Ball's modus operandi when it comes to storytelling because it's just the most convenient way of writing a plot.
There is no way they can make skill a defining part of this series at this point. They used that logic with roshi and fans were enraged.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by sintzu » Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:18 am

ekrolo2 wrote:I have to agree with SupremeKai25 on this, we've gotten to the point where the Gods of Destruction are going to be overtaken as the standard moving forward. Jiren already broke the threshold and Broly will have to do the same and everyone who follows them. What then? Spend 3 years catching up Whis then another 3 to the Grand Priest. Okay, what then? We gonna make Goku & Vegeta stronger than Zeno too then reveal that Zeno is just the ruler of one multiverse in a set of an omniverse?!

Yeah, this thing is rapidly reaching a point where it HAS to fracking stop.
For some reason the writers think DB will go out of style so they're just rushing everything. Goku went from being weaker than Beerus to possibly surpassing him and the other destroyers with UI overnight. We were told back in BOG that the 12 universes have fighters even greater than Beerus yet in one arc Goku and Vegeta surpassed everyone within 7 of those new universes. Back in the original manga everything was given the proper time to breath and develop. Goku for example needed to take part in 3 tournaments to become the champion with adventure arcs set between each one so by the time he finally won it felt deserving for him and rewarding for us who saw him grow across 6 arcs. Vegeta took nearly 250 chapters to become a good guy as we were able to see him change and develop through the multiple experiences he had along the way, it didn't just come out of nowhere. Same thing with power ups, characters back then had to do actual training and fighting to get stronger but now you've got the likes of Trunks going from not being able to fight Base Black to being able to take him on in his Blue like "Rose" level AND Zamasu at the same time because his "feelings" were hurt. DB is at an all time high and has (or had I should say) the potential to truly build up the dragon world to rival that of other great Shonen such as One Piece but instead it's just wasting everything to seemingly get to the finish line as quick as possible.
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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by Master Xar » Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:24 am

Jesus-is Lord wrote:1. The art style sucks. It takes away from the tone of the show, the old artystyle made our characters more rough.
2. The notable decrease in story writing. Arcs just kinda happen with little reason or rhyme, no connecting the dots except the tournament sagas. In sayain saga, it led to Namek. And the red ribbon arc created the android arc. Not saying we can't have things happen spontaneously or out of nowhere, but more connection would be nice.
3. Lack of consequence, for our heroes they don't really gain much from their arcs. Like in dragon ball and more so in Z, every arc was ESSENTIAL for the character to be strong enough to face the next arc. Many things and choices were made that created actual consequences for the characters. In super, it's like the arcs don't really mean anything. If the future trunks arc never happened, it wouldn't effect goku and vegeta much for the ToP. Same with the universe 6 arc because goku already was learning kaioken in blue. Even with the ToP arc, based on how goku achieved UI - we can assume he just would have gotten it some other time if we was pushed in the same fashion. The only thing you can say is "Well, you'd lose the character interactions and cool fights". Well, is that really important when furthering an cohesive story? Not really.
P.S - for you manga fans, I know the manga tries to somewhat resolve many of my issues above with dabura vs trunks and how it effects the black ad or goku and vegeta learning new stuff because of this arc - But it dosent do it at the level of of db manga or the Orginal anime.
4. Not enough dynamics in the arc, the arcs are WAY TO SIMPLE and straightforward. Z and db used to give us so many twist and turns before we finally reached an conclusion. Super is to straightforward and predictable. For the manga, It did try with the Black arc and the anime did kinda with the ToP. But, eh.
5. To afraid to expand the world of dragon ball, I guess since neither toei nor Toyo has the real power to, but db keeps re using so many tropes. What made db and Z so great was how innovative it is. Also coming up with some new and creative. Super is re using things from Z and db:
Mafuba
Kai's as villian (which isn't bad)
Kaioken
Mssj blue (though don't get confused mssj blue doesn't work the same way as mssj)
Broly (lol)
Characters in the anime spamming moves from Z
Manga making as many refrences as possible to OG manga

Honestly, dragon ball is just to corporate and fan-governed instead of being Orginal and good. Which isn't a bad thing, and dragon ball is by no means failing or bad. It's on the rise, but hopefully it can do better.
1.) Agreed. Even before Yamamuro’s changes I was never a fan of the over-polished look. Everything looks too clean, rigid, and stiff.

2.) Well that depends on how you see the context. Zamasu’s coming to learn of Goku and his hatred for mortals has an ambiguous origin for instance. From what we see in the present, Zamasu comes to learn of Goku through the U6 Tournament footage on “Godtube” from what Gowasu is watching, assuming that the present is the “origin” so there is the Future Trunks arc of that gives you anything.


3.) Well they do do that outside of the BOG and tournament arcs. Or they can go the route of using anything in there and integrate them retroactively. The TOP was smart with it in that what they came away with the arc I’m about to mention is used.

ROF gives the heroes something from completing their journey that many people seem to overlook. Who is the one member that was pretty much key to the final stretch of the tournament of power and finishing off Jiren? Freeza. Or at least the knowledge of his current power to be used as a teammate while Buu sleeps on the job. He was one of the top MVP’s of the whole squad here.

The Future Trunks arc may or may not have given them something they can’t really use yet. Whether that be Trunks and the fact that they at least saved him from the timeline’s destruction or Mai. But something tells me they aren’t going to have the knowledge in a thread I’m making today.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by Simere » Tue Aug 07, 2018 6:35 am

ekrolo2 wrote:I have to agree with SupremeKai25 on this, we've gotten to the point where the Gods of Destruction are going to be overtaken as the standard moving forward. Jiren already broke the threshold and Broly will have to do the same and everyone who follows them. What then? Spend 3 years catching up Whis then another 3 to the Grand Priest. Okay, what then? We gonna make Goku & Vegeta stronger than Zeno too then reveal that Zeno is just the ruler of one multiverse in a set of an omniverse?!

Yeah, this thing is rapidly reaching a point where it HAS to fracking stop.
Personally, I can imagine at least five levels above the angels before I'd feel like stopping. Wouldn't be slow about reaching them, either. And even then, I'd only stop it where Goku goes off into the unknown to continue his journey, just at a level we can't imagine anymore.

If Dragon Ball ever does reach that point where its premise stops functioning then it should actually stop. No reboots, no remakes, no next generations. Let Dragon Ball be what it is, and if someone has new ideas about doing things "better" they should make their own story.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by Dragono » Tue Aug 07, 2018 6:59 am

Grimlock wrote:
Dragono wrote:You do know this thread was for people who have not given up, right?
Yes, but:

• It is not like people who have given up cannot state their opinions nonetheless.
• You specified that it is not for people who have given up on the franchise, which is not my case. I have only given up on the main series, not the franchise. Luckily Dragon Ball is not just made up of the series that you watch, we have other ways to enjoy it.
sintzu wrote:Toriyama said multiple times that he's not working alone and ideas such as Broly being brought back was from the "editorial office", whatever that is. The problem is you've got a staff of writers who can't seem to think out of the box and Toriyama himself isn't the writer he once was so he's not pushing for comepletely new idea and instead is just giving them and fans what they want. That's not to say we haven't gotten anything new but like you said, they never realize their full potential because they seem to not want to spend too much time away from familiar concepts.
I know Toriyama is not the only problem here, but you know, since he is who he is, he gets credited even for stuff not entirely his fault, well, since/as long as Toriyama allows it he is partially guilty. At any rate, this "editorial office" then should have been composed of people who really want this franchise to move on to new directions and horizons, not ones that push even further into the safe zone. If they are the source of this whole nonsense then Toriyama should leave and proceed to work with people at Dimps company instead...
emperior wrote:Jaco’s manga explains that Saiyans stay in a kid’s body for a long time, and they use it to their advantage to deceive their opponents and later they have a rapid growth into a body more suitable for battle. This is exactly what happened to Goku.
Kid Trunks is different from his future counterpart, apparently. I wouldn’t mind him finally growing though.
I agree how they still act way too much like kids. The same is true for Marron.
One reason why I want Toriyama to finally go over his manga ending is specifically because I want to see Goten and Trunks finally doing things.
Jaco's explanation does not work on Trunks, his height was already very well established so present Trunks should just obey the laws that Future Trunks imposed. I'll give you Goten though, even though if it was the case to portray Trunks properly, Toei/Toriyama would certainly make Goten taller too. And present Trunks is not different from future Trunks when it comes to biological matter. And yeah, to make things worse, we cannot forget about Marron too.

Agree. I also want a story passed AGE 784, it's high time for a "new cast" or at least give them more screentime and whatnot, which is also something that they are seemingly afraid to do so.
Master Xar wrote:You see a concept and you think “more expanding on this concept = better” you think that just because the series implies or introduces new things and concepts and simply that the fans want them to be expanded on, means that it should.
No dude, stop jumping into conclusions. It does not necessarily mean it will be better, that actually relies on the execution. But here is exactly where video-games come in, the way they handle alternate dimension is fine by me, so they prove that expanding on that concept will only enrich the story, the lore in-universe. If it's gonna be good or bad is another issue, but it's a fact that dealing with other ideas not touched previously may get things at least more interesting. Why do you think the Shadow Dragons stand out this much? They do revolve around a good idea, only that its execution was not good.

Please never say that only because "it's expanding means that it's better" issue about me anymore, you're only making false claims, twisting my words and the way I view things.
Master Xar wrote:...which is already fanservice in and of itself from that logic. Both fans “want” something more or less out of this so both are already fanservice.
Yes, obviously it is a fanservice. I want the series to have a story out of the box, it gives me that kind of story, it is a fanservice. It is not different from people who want endless fights, they get what they want, it is a fanservice. At this point everything is fanservice, it has become impossible to do something without listening to what your fanbase is asking. So I don't really know what was your point here.
Then you have given up on the franchise.

Dragon ball fighterz story line is just a repeat of cell and buu's and toriyam designed that character. The xenoverse series is literally about going back in time and the main 2 villains were also designed by toriyama and heroes may be the worst offender of this as they are just villains or heores given shit from the main storyline or using toriymas ideas. Not to mention japan has gone out of their way, to make sure heroes stays in japan so not many people really care about it.

This is nothing new by the way as most of the movie plots or movie villains are just rehashes from the main storyline.

There is no other way slice it, toriyama's name is on everything important, fanservice is all over the place, new ideas that are explored are truly old ideas that toriyama threw around that were never meant to be much and most of things of the new things that dragon ball has done were not universally received because they were not executed well.

At this point we are just defending shit that is the same as the shit we are attacking.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by Grimlock » Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:51 am

Dragono wrote:Then you have given up on the franchise.
Yes, because the video-games that I play and enjoy, even though they have "Dragon Ball" in their title, they must belong to One Piece or Naruto since they are not part of the Dragon Ball franchise according to you and your logic then. :)
Dragono wrote:This is nothing new by the way as most of the movie plots or movie villains are just rehashes from the main storyline.
Yes, but if Broly can be rearranged, then so can everyone else.
Dragono wrote:There is no other way slice it, toriyama's name is on everything important, fanservice is all over the place, new ideas that are explored are truly old ideas that toriyama threw around that were never meant to be much and most of things of the new things that dragon ball has done were not universally received because they were not executed well.
What do you mean "they were never meant to be much"? And yes, I have already addressed the execution of things. But again, if video-games can handle it, I'm sure Toriyama can too even though he is not in his prime anymore.
Dragono wrote:At this point we are just defending shit that is the same as the shit we are attacking.
No, I am defending shit that does what the main shit should do.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by jplaya2023 » Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:41 am

DB Super's issues

1. horrible animation (ssj3 goku beerus) goku's ssj2 hair being wrong,

2. horrible and unexplained powerscaling (no explanation of how U6 saiyans can immediately turn ssj without any detail explaining how other than plot)

3. useless characters being introduced and having the spotlight on (yamcha, tien, chaozu, krilian etc..)

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by Hawk9211 » Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:25 pm

It lacks originality,creativity and any desire of moving forward.It goes one step in new direction and two steps backwards.My in depth answer is a mix of doctor’s,ekrolo and grimlock’s comments.
Why power levels are important?
The genre and roots of dragon ball

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by supersaiyanZero » Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:58 pm

It was a soulless, generic cash grab filled with fanservice and nothing resembling a coherent, well written (or well animated for that matter) story. You really can't argue against that, unfortunately. I mean the entirety of the series can be summed up with 2 moments - Piccolo "sacrificing himself" to save Gohan in a lazy, completely soulless rip off of a memorable scene, and when a Female Broly literally tricked us into watching a cheap ripoff of movie 8 frame by frame.

Add a bunch of filler characters nobody really gives a shit about (that don't seem to belong in the same series), the putrid humor meant for 3 year olds, and a big bad antagonist that's just about as interesting as watching paint dry and you've got yourself an embarrassingly bad series.

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Jesus-is Lord
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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by Jesus-is Lord » Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:23 pm

supersaiyanZero wrote:It was a soulless, generic cash grab filled with fanservice and nothing resembling a coherent, well written (or well animated for that matter) story. You really can't argue against that, unfortunately. I mean the entirety of the series can be summed up with 2 moments - Piccolo "sacrificing himself" to save Gohan in a lazy, completely soulless rip off of a memorable scene, and when a Female Broly literally tricked us into watching a cheap ripoff of movie 8 frame by frame.

Add a bunch of filler characters nobody really gives a shit about (that don't seem to belong in the same series), the putrid humor meant for 3 year olds, and a big bad antagonist that's just about as interesting as watching paint dry and you've got yourself an embarrassingly bad series.
If toei adapted toyotaro manga in the same fashion it adapted Z (obviously with this new yammuro arstyle but other then that it's the same), would you have less of a problem, more of an problem or about the same?

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by Mister_Popo » Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:34 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Dragono wrote:You do know this thread was for people who have not given up, right?
Yes, but:

• It is not like people who have given up cannot state their opinions nonetheless.
• You specified that it is not for people who have given up on the franchise, which is not my case. I have only given up on the main series, not the franchise. Luckily Dragon Ball is not just made up of the series that you watch, we have other ways to enjoy it.
sintzu wrote:Toriyama said multiple times that he's not working alone and ideas such as Broly being brought back was from the "editorial office", whatever that is. The problem is you've got a staff of writers who can't seem to think out of the box and Toriyama himself isn't the writer he once was so he's not pushing for comepletely new idea and instead is just giving them and fans what they want. That's not to say we haven't gotten anything new but like you said, they never realize their full potential because they seem to not want to spend too much time away from familiar concepts.
I know Toriyama is not the only problem here, but you know, since he is who he is, he gets credited even for stuff not entirely his fault, well, since/as long as Toriyama allows it he is partially guilty. At any rate, this "editorial office" then should have been composed of people who really want this franchise to move on to new directions and horizons, not ones that push even further into the safe zone. If they are the source of this whole nonsense then Toriyama should leave and proceed to work with people at Dimps company instead...
emperior wrote:Jaco’s manga explains that Saiyans stay in a kid’s body for a long time, and they use it to their advantage to deceive their opponents and later they have a rapid growth into a body more suitable for battle. This is exactly what happened to Goku.
Kid Trunks is different from his future counterpart, apparently. I wouldn’t mind him finally growing though.
I agree how they still act way too much like kids. The same is true for Marron.
One reason why I want Toriyama to finally go over his manga ending is specifically because I want to see Goten and Trunks finally doing things.
Jaco's explanation does not work on Trunks, his height was already very well established so present Trunks should just obey the laws that Future Trunks imposed. I'll give you Goten though, even though if it was the case to portray Trunks properly, Toei/Toriyama would certainly make Goten taller too. And present Trunks is not different from future Trunks when it comes to biological matter. And yeah, to make things worse, we cannot forget about Marron too.

Agree. I also want a story passed AGE 784, it's high time for a "new cast" or at least give them more screentime and whatnot, which is also something that they are seemingly afraid to do so.
Master Xar wrote:You see a concept and you think “more expanding on this concept = better” you think that just because the series implies or introduces new things and concepts and simply that the fans want them to be expanded on, means that it should.
No dude, stop jumping into conclusions. It does not necessarily mean it will be better, that actually relies on the execution. But here is exactly where video-games come in, the way they handle alternate dimension is fine by me, so they prove that expanding on that concept will only enrich the story, the lore in-universe. If it's gonna be good or bad is another issue, but it's a fact that dealing with other ideas not touched previously may get things at least more interesting. Why do you think the Shadow Dragons stand out this much? They do revolve around a good idea, only that its execution was not good.

Please never say that only because "it's expanding means that it's better" issue about me anymore, you're only making false claims, twisting my words and the way I view things.
Master Xar wrote:...which is already fanservice in and of itself from that logic. Both fans “want” something more or less out of this so both are already fanservice.
Yes, obviously it is a fanservice. I want the series to have a story out of the box, it gives me that kind of story, it is a fanservice. It is not different from people who want endless fights, they get what they want, it is a fanservice. At this point everything is fanservice, it has become impossible to do something without listening to what your fanbase is asking. So I don't really know what was your point here.

You know an awful lot of Super for a guy who says he doesn't like it. I bet you've seen the most (an probably all) of the episodes and you are going to watch the movie as well?
Now ... this must have some reason like ... whether you like it or not, it still appears to intrest you more than you would say.
Moreover you are always discussing the latest content in a very driven, motivated way.
Would you really make that kind of sacrifices for something you dislike that much?

I bet, if some of those so called non-DBS-believers would take part in a quiz 'How good do you know Super?' with a 1 million prize on it for giving the right answers, they would win it gratiously.
Last edited by Mister_Popo on Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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