Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

[Lionel]

A grievance that I had with the old Dragon Ball, and I still have with the modern Dragon Ball. There must be a threshold that cannot be broken, there must be a point when a certain villain has reached the apex and cannot be surpassed anymore. The writers can't go on like this. I thought that Infinite Zamasu would be the greatest villain that Goku and friends would ever face, seeing as he was literally one with the universe. But I guess I was wrong, since apparently Jiren and Broly trash all over Infinite Zamasu.

Wrong. Saiyans (and some others) by nature have infinite potential and no limits. There essentially isn't a threshold that can't eventually be broken. Making one would contradict the entire nature of the franchise and Goku's character in particular.

Besides, these characters can easily blow up universes, so there's no way they intended Infinite Zamasu to be the strongest threat ever.

This "Saiyan has no limits thing" was never a thing until Super and in my eyes the concept sucks.

While the concept existed in some capacity back in the original manga, I feel like it's become tasteless and uninspiring by this point -- like whenever we see this Saiyan or that Saiyan breaking through their limits by gaining a new transformation or whatever, I just feel like rolling my eyes because it's devolved into a cliche.

If I were to say that Piccolo's imagination -- thus the applicability of his materialisation magic becomes multivarious and complex -- had no limitations thanks to Kami's "wisdom", would that be rooted in established fact? No. Given what it is, such a premise doesn't seem plausible. It speaks to the grievance that I personally have with the oversaturation of Saiyan centrism. Sadly, continual layer building of their transformational and power gaining lore is easier. Ultra Instinct was admittedly a step in the right direction, but I wish others could benefit from these opportunities besides just Goku.

[SaiyanGod117]

Q: Why did you chose to make this story after the Majin Buu saga?

Akira Toriyama: I wanted to use all of the characters, and I wondered which saga was the best, so I decided that it would be several years after Majin Buu showed up, and everyone was in their strongest condition at that time. Do you remember Uub? when I created Uub, Bulma and Krillin were really old, so I thought it would be difficult to adjust the story.

Thanks.

1. Those quotes from Vegeta and Freeza were clearly referencing the fact that Saiyans constantly get stronger as they fight (which is a separate concept/ability from zenkais, the ability to get stronger after healing from a near-death state.) because of their "bottomless potential". Those quotes were not a reference to zenkais.

No, they were due to Zenkais, Frieza was just ignorant of the fact that Vegeta's power boost were attributed to Zenkais, in the Z manga Saiyans never got stronger as they fought, I remember they always would say that but it would never happen.

2. You are ignoring the fact that saiyans constantly "breaking their limits" was always a thing. In the Android arc before they went into the ROSAT, it was assumed that SSJ1 was the end all be all of saiyan potential, but that was proven wrong

.
I'm not, in fact, I agreed with you but at the end of the manga their limits were reached. There's not much else to be said.

3. That interview merely said that everyone was at their strongest at the time of the story (which was the Buu arc).

I think your right, I misinterpreted and misremembered it, actually to be honest I don't know.

Toriyama never said that they couldn't get any stronger than that (and he never said that SSJ3, SSJ2 and Ultimate form was their true limits, that's just your headcanon)

While that previous interview is ambiguous this one is more clear cut:
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... interview/

Akira Toriyama

How did you feel as you were drawing the final portions of the series?

So before the Boo story arc began, I said “Once this next thing wraps up (Boo Arc), I want to end it no matter what.” Because I thought there was no way for any stronger guys to pop up, or for Goku to get any stronger than he already was. So my starting point for the Boo arc was, “This is the end, so I’m going to draw whatever I want!

and in that very movie (BoG) both Goku and Vegeta unlock new levels of power beyond what they had in the Buu arc. If that was their limits then they wouldn't have gotten any stronger at all during BoG.

Goku only accessed new levels of power due to God Ritual and I'm pretty sure Vegeta's upper limits were brought all out from the Rage boost, likewise, Gohan didn't seemingly get any stronger since his potential was already brought out by Old kai. By and large, I'm still certain they could had still made incremental creeps in power but not nearly big enough to say they surpassed or broke their limits.

Besides, both the original manga and the Daizenshuu had depicted/implied Goku and Vegeta in the end of Z being much stronger than they were in the Buu saga (and stronger then Gohan, who was the strongest non-fused character in the Buu arc and still trained afterwards).

Well from what I've seen the original manga has never showed that and the Daizenshuu contradicts the words of Toriyama which takes precedence over any guidebook.

4. Both the Daizenshuu and Super Exciting Guides were co-written and approved by Toriyama and they both say that Saiyans have infinite potential. So you can't dismissed them out of bias.

I remember he wrote an excerpt for the SEG, but outside of that all he did was approve the Daizenshuu that's why I said its secondary canon. It definitely holds a lot of value, however, the official manga and author takes precedence.

[zarmack]

Q: Why did you chose to make this story after the Majin Buu saga?

Akira Toriyama: I wanted to use all of the characters, and I wondered which saga was the best, so I decided that it would be several years after Majin Buu showed up, and everyone was in their strongest condition at that time. Do you remember Uub? when I created Uub, Bulma and Krillin were really old, so I thought it would be difficult to adjust the story.

Thanks.

1. Those quotes from Vegeta and Freeza were clearly referencing the fact that Saiyans constantly get stronger as they fight (which is a separate concept/ability from zenkais, the ability to get stronger after healing from a near-death state.) because of their "bottomless potential". Those quotes were not a reference to zenkais.

No, they were due to Zenkais, Frieza was just ignorant of the fact that Vegeta's power boost were attributed to Zenkais, in the Z manga Saiyans never got stronger as they fought, I remember they always would say that but it would never happen.

2. You are ignoring the fact that saiyans constantly "breaking their limits" was always a thing. In the Android arc before they went into the ROSAT, it was assumed that SSJ1 was the end all be all of saiyan potential, but that was proven wrong

.
I'm not, in fact, I agreed with you but at the end of the manga their limits were reached. There's not much else to be said.

3. That interview merely said that everyone was at their strongest at the time of the story (which was the Buu arc).

I think your right, I misinterpreted and misremembered it, actually to be honest I don't know.

Toriyama never said that they couldn't get any stronger than that (and he never said that SSJ3, SSJ2 and Ultimate form was their true limits, that's just your headcanon)

While that previous interview is ambiguous this one is more clear cut:
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... interview/

Akira Toriyama

How did you feel as you were drawing the final portions of the series?

So before the Boo story arc began, I said “Once this next thing wraps up (Boo Arc), I want to end it no matter what.” Because I thought there was no way for any stronger guys to pop up, or for Goku to get any stronger than he already was. So my starting point for the Boo arc was, “This is the end, so I’m going to draw whatever I want!

and in that very movie (BoG) both Goku and Vegeta unlock new levels of power beyond what they had in the Buu arc. If that was their limits then they wouldn't have gotten any stronger at all during BoG.

Goku only accessed new levels of power due to God Ritual and I'm pretty sure Vegeta's upper limits were brought all out from the Rage boost, likewise, Gohan didn't seemingly get any stronger since his potential was already brought out by Old kai. By and large, I'm still certain they could had still made incremental creeps in power but not nearly big enough to say they surpassed or broke their limits.

Besides, both the original manga and the Daizenshuu had depicted/implied Goku and Vegeta in the end of Z being much stronger than they were in the Buu saga (and stronger then Gohan, who was the strongest non-fused character in the Buu arc and still trained afterwards).

Well from what I've seen the original manga has never showed that and the Daizenshuu contradicts the words of Toriyama which takes precedence over any guidebook.

4. Both the Daizenshuu and Super Exciting Guides were co-written and approved by Toriyama and they both say that Saiyans have infinite potential. So you can't dismissed them out of bias.

I remember he wrote an excerpt for the SEG, but outside of that all he did was approve the Daizenshuu that's why I said its secondary canon.

1. There was no reference to zenkais in those post, and yes there are examples of saiyans getting stronger as they fight in the original manga (SSJ Goku vs 100% Freeza for example).

2. The fact that Goku and Vegeta got any degree stronger at all in BoG means that logically they broke their limits. If they where at their limits, the God ritual wouldn't have made Goku any stronger, nor would Vegeta's rage boost have happened at all. And Gohan wasn't any stronger in BoG than he was in the Buu arc simply because he stopped training.

3. Toriyama didn't have SSJ3 in mind when he started writing the Buu arc (it was an on the spot idea he made for Goku vs Fat Buu.) So he basically contradicted himself in that interview.

4. Toriyama outright declared Goku to be the strongest character at the end of Z (despite being weaker than Gotenks, Gohan and Vegito in the Buu arc)
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... yama-best/
That wouldn't have been possible if his Buu arc powers were his limits.

5. He didn't just wrote an excerpt, he gave several interviews and directly commentary in all 7 Daizenshuu guides. Its as official as you can get.

[BWri]

A grievance that I had with the old Dragon Ball, and I still have with the modern Dragon Ball. There must be a threshold that cannot be broken, there must be a point when a certain villain has reached the apex and cannot be surpassed anymore. The writers can't go on like this. I thought that Infinite Zamasu would be the greatest villain that Goku and friends would ever face, seeing as he was literally one with the universe. But I guess I was wrong, since apparently Jiren and Broly trash all over Infinite Zamasu.

Wrong. Saiyans (and some others) by nature have infinite potential and no limits. There essentially isn't a threshold that can't eventually be broken. Making one would contradict the entire nature of the franchise and Goku's character in particular.

Besides, these characters can easily blow up universes, so there's no way they intended Infinite Zamasu to be the strongest threat ever.

This "Saiyan has no limits thing" was never a thing until Super and in my eyes the concept sucks.

There was really no limits in the first place. The characters tend to reference limits but it can't really be taken seriously since these characters have broken their limits time and time again. Hell, as recently as the Universe 6 arc Goku and Vegeta said that they could get no stronger even with 3 years of training in the Time Chamber.

We've seen in the past that even humans can outdo a Saiyan when they train together using the same methods of training. We've seen that a Namekian (with a fusion hack and divided powers) can outpace a Saiyan's base form doing the same training and even reach a power similar to their legendary transformation. And in Super we've seen a human (Krillin) who can keep pace with an Android who is leaps and bounds ahead of Namek arc Frieza and SS Goku.

There have never been limits in DB. Toriyama just uses them to streamline his narrative from time to time, but when he doesn't need them he has the characters shatter them on a grand scale. Look at freakin' Roshi. We all thought he stopped growing back in DB. This old legend is now going toe to toe with Frost and freakin' Jiren. It's madness, but this tells you everything about so called limits. In universe, its just mental blocks you could say. Out of universe it's Toriyama keeping things convenient for himself.

[SaiyanGod117]

1. There was no reference to zenkais in those post, and yes there are examples of saiyans getting stronger as they fight in the original manga (SSJ Goku vs 100% Freeza for example).

That's not a example, never once in that fight did Goku grow in power due to fighting and the SSJ transformation doesn't count as you get it through an a emontial trigger.

2. The fact that Goku and Vegeta got any degree stronger at all in BoG means that logically they broke their limits. If they where at their limits, the God ritual wouldn't have made Goku any stronger,

Breaking your limit would be unlocking a new level of power like a transformation or making one's already existing form exponentially stronger-i.e., the SSJ form in Cell Saga. Not making incremental creeps in power that would also diminish over and plateau over time. Addtionally, a person can still train for the purpose of keeping their skills sharp and not necessarily for getting stronger. Furthermore, the God ritual would have made Goku substantially stronger whether he was at his limit or not, as it was suppose be his stepping stone to propel him into a level of strength he wouldn't reach on his own. Explicably, without the GOD powerup, there would be have been no way for him to reach levels of the like such as SSB and beyond. Likewise, Super has also changed that but before it was clear cut what Goku's limit was.

nor would Vegeta's rage boost have happened at all.

Well he only said for Goku, and if Goku at nearing or at his limit then it would have been a matter of time for Vegeta.

And Gohan wasn't any stronger in BoG than he was in the Buu arc simply because he stopped training.

You're contradicting yourself because before you said.

"Besides, both the original manga and the Daizenshuu had depicted/implied Goku and Vegeta in the end of Z being much stronger than they were in the Buu saga (and stronger then Gohan, who was the strongest non-fused character in the Buu arc and still trained afterwards)."

3. Toriyama didn't have SSJ3 in mind when he started writing the Buu arc (it was an on the spot idea he made for Goku vs Fat Buu.) So he basically contradicted himself in that interview.

True, but not fully, as he made it seem like SSJ3 was a form Goku was hiding and had all along so there's still a possible probability he still had that in mind.

4. Toriyama outright declared Goku to be the strongest character at the end of Z (despite being weaker than Gotenks, Gohan and Vegito in the Buu arc)
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... yama-best/
That wouldn't have been possible if his Buu arc powers were his limits.

Goku definitely wasn't stronger than Gohan or any of the fusions at the End of Z, much less Vegeito. Also, from looking at the interview Toriyama was saying Goku was the coolest, and his statement of "Pure strongest" can be interpreted in many ways. Then he went on to say "Goku is #1 after all" to be honest I think he just flattering Goku.

5. He didn't just wrote an excerpt, he gave several interviews and directly commentary in all 7 Daizenshuu guides. Its as official as you can get.

Offical as you can get would mean he wrote the Daizenshuu, he didn't write it just approved it. Now, the interview mean something but I'm pretty sure it's just miscellaneous questions and answers. Even without him saying that, I've realized from this debate that Saiyans had always had some capacity for unlimited potential. Or just not to be taken seriously when they say they've had reached their limit, like others have said, but it just wasn't so thoroughly absued like it's been now in Super.