There is one criticism of super I will never agree with

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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There is one criticism of super I will never agree with

Post by Dragono » Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:17 am

That it has too many tournaments. Dragon ball is a martial arts anime. Son Goku is warrior trying to become the strongest and break his limits . How does this criticism make any sense in this context? You can say they aren't good but too say that they are too many doesn't.

Dragon ball is about fighting, first and foremost, its what it is known for over its story. Storytelling in dragon ball is not bad but its often used as a way to tie the fights together which is the exact thing a tournament is good for.

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Re: There is one criticism of super I will never agree with

Post by emperior » Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:28 am

I am always been a big fan of tournaments in Dragon Ball, they were my favorite part of the original so I was happy to see a classic DB tournament in the Champa arc, and it was also great for Toriyama to come up with a Battle Royale tournament to introduce lots of strong fighters and to also utilize the Gods’ presence to introduce Ultra Insinct and its backstory.
Two tournaments isn’t too much. I think the only reason why some people were disappointed is that weekly Super ended with it only having a new arc with a big baddie, as the retellings were telling stories we already saw with the movies.
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Re: There is one criticism of super I will never agree with

Post by sintzu » Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:36 am

The issue isn't completely about the tournaments but rather how they dominated 2 thirds of Super's original content. Had they not wasted time on those retellings and gave us more variety in terms of arcs then no one (mostly) would've complained.
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Re: There is one criticism of super I will never agree with

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:30 am

Because tournaments are lazy and boring. Tournaments are just an excuse to avoid writing a gripping and elaborate plot and introduce a well-written and captivating villain. How could anyone find tournaments entertaining? There is hardly any tension, everyone knows that the -antagonist- cannot kill the protagonists, everyone knows that there are rules made to restrain the -antagonist-, and so I fail to see how there is any tension in such a storyline. Sure, I won't lie that there are awesome moments like Goku going Ultra Instinct and all of that, but from a story perspective, a tournament is just the most basic and generic idea possible.

There is a reason why there were so many popular fan-theories such as "Grand Priest is evil!" or "Future Zeno is Zamasu!". Many people clearly didn't want the entire arc to be a long tournament, they were expecting a twist, which did not come. Especially since there was already one tournament arc in Super.
Dragon ball is a martial arts anime.
Dragon Ball Z clearly evolved beyond that. Let's see, Saiyan arc, not a tournament, Frieeza arc, not a tournament, Android arc, not a tournament, Cell arc, a "tournament" (it is clear that it wasn't a real tournament), Buu arc, not a tournament for the majority of the time.
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Re: There is one criticism of super I will never agree with

Post by DragonBallFoodie » Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:37 am

The Tournament of Power was installed so that the Universes would not go to war with each other. And even if they did, Universe 7 would probably still come out on top.

In that sense, both Tournaments in the show made a refreshing contrast to the apocalyptic and hopeless wasteland Zamasu's arc had wrought.
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Re: There is one criticism of super I will never agree with

Post by Dragono » Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:50 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:Because tournaments are lazy and boring. Tournaments are just an excuse to avoid writing a gripping and elaborate plot and introduce a well-written and captivating villain. How could anyone find tournaments entertaining? There is hardly any tension, everyone knows that the -antagonist- cannot kill the protagonists, everyone knows that there are rules made to restrain the -antagonist-, and so I fail to see how there is any tension in such a storyline. Sure, I won't lie that there are awesome moments like Goku going Ultra Instinct and all of that, but from a story perspective, a tournament is just the most basic and generic idea possible.

There is a reason why there were so many popular fan-theories such as "Grand Priest is evil!" or "Future Zeno is Zamasu!". Many people clearly didn't want the entire arc to be a long tournament, they were expecting a twist, which did not come. Especially since there was already one tournament arc in Super.
Dragon ball is a martial arts anime.
Dragon Ball Z clearly evolved beyond that. Let's see, Saiyan arc, not a tournament, Frieeza arc, not a tournament, Android arc, not a tournament, Cell arc, a "tournament" (it is clear that it wasn't a real tournament), Buu arc, not a tournament for the majority of the time.
Tension in a series where death means nothing. Not going to question that logic.

Tournaments aren't about tension, there about competition and seeing your characters test their abilities that they have work hard for. Especially when your main character's mantra is breaking his limits and wanting to fight for the sake of fighting.

Not too mention, dragon ball is often considered better than z and that had 4 tournaments, 2 of them back to back.

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Re: There is one criticism of super I will never agree with

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:03 am

Tension in a series where death means nothing. Not going to question that logic.
As we have clearly seen from the Future Trunks arc, death means a lot when you have no Dragon Balls around to save your hide.
there about competition
Competition? Universe 7 just roflstomped most of the other teams in the Tournament of Power arc. Only in the last 9 episodes, did they start to get into trouble because Jiren finally woke up and decided that he was done meditating.

It's even worse in the manga, with Universe 7 stomping four different teams in a single chapter.
and seeing your characters test their abilities that they have work hard for.
And how is that exclusive to a tournament-based arc?
Especially when your main character's mantra is breaking his limits and wanting to fight for the sake of fighting.
Oh, God forbid that after yet another arc about tournaments, some people are starting to get tired of the same, boring old formula. It's not like we already had a carbon copy of Jiren a few arcs before that. Besides, What's next? We already had a multiversal tournament. Are we going to make yet another multiversal tournament, this time involving the other four universes?
Not too mention, dragon ball is often considered better than z and that had 4 tournaments, 2 of them back to back.
Yet Dragon Ball Z is vastly more popular than the original Dragon Ball. How many original Dragon Ball characters are there in Xenoverse, Fighterz, Heroes, Legends, or any other popular Dragon Ball videogame? Thought so. Dragon Ball might be more beloved by long-time fans, but Dragon Ball Z is much more popular, and popularity is what's driving this franchise forward. In case the upcoming Broly movie didn't make it painfully obvious.
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Re: There is one criticism of super I will never agree with

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:54 am

Tournaments can be incredibly compelling, it's all just about how you can execute them. People will forget that tournaments took up most of the runtime of your anime, if you manage to write them very well. For some fans, the Champa arc and Universal Survival arc, with regards to the general quality of their "tournaments", left a lot to be desired.

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Re: There is one criticism of super I will never agree with

Post by OhHiRenan » Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:04 am

I love a good tournament arc, but neither of Super's tournaments have been what I'm looking for. I'd love for a traditional eight man tournament like in the old days.

U6 had a great premise, emulating itself after the Baba tourney, but it made the mistake of letting Vegeta fight four of U6's five competitors. The Tournament of Power likewise had a solid premise, but the anime slowed everything down way too much for my liking. So long as there are no interruptions, I feel a traditional tournament could work well.
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Re: There is one criticism of super I will never agree with

Post by Hawk9211 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:36 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:Because tournaments are lazy and boring. Tournaments are just an excuse to avoid writing a gripping and elaborate plot and introduce a well-written and captivating villain. How could anyone find tournaments entertaining? There is hardly any tension, everyone knows that the -antagonist- cannot kill the protagonists, everyone knows that there are rules made to restrain the -antagonist-, and so I fail to see how there is any tension in such a storyline. Sure, I won't lie that there are awesome moments like Goku going Ultra Instinct and all of that, but from a story perspective, a tournament is just the most basic and generic idea possible.

There is a reason why there were so many popular fan-theories such as "Grand Priest is evil!" or "Future Zeno is Zamasu!". Many people clearly didn't want the entire arc to be a long tournament, they were expecting a twist, which did not come. Especially since there was already one tournament arc in Super.
I always disagreed about tension in dragon ball franchise,but leave that aside for now.You can do that all in a tournament.We have seen that before unless in 23 world tournament Piccolo was not gonna kill goku.A tournament with twist is still a tournament.Sounds like you want better execution and bit of complexity.
Dragon Ball Z clearly evolved beyond that. Let's see, Saiyan arc, not a tournament, Frieeza arc, not a tournament, Android arc, not a tournament, Cell arc, a "tournament" (it is clear that it wasn't a real tournament), Buu arc, not a tournament for the majority of the time.
It was,is and will be a martial arts franchise.Google xianxia.Scope doesn’t change anything,many xianxia characters will finger flick the entire dragon ball franchise even some of most ridiculous fanfics.
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Re: There is one criticism of super I will never agree with

Post by kudo6000 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:45 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:There is a reason why there were so many popular fan-theories such as "Grand Priest is evil!" or "Future Zeno is Zamasu!”
I know that last one was probably just an example, but I couldn’t even begin to grasp any sense that’d make.

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Re: There is one criticism of super I will never agree with

Post by Mister_Popo » Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:02 am

TOP could hardly be called a classic tournament.

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Re: There is one criticism of super I will never agree with

Post by Dragono » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:57 pm

kudo6000 wrote:
SupremeKai25 wrote:There is a reason why there were so many popular fan-theories such as "Grand Priest is evil!" or "Future Zeno is Zamasu!”
I know that last one was probably just an example, but I couldn’t even begin to grasp any sense that’d make.
We had Goten black as a theory.

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Re: There is one criticism of super I will never agree with

Post by Jackalope89 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:09 pm

I agree with the OP. Plus, tournaments have been a mainstay of the series since Dragon Ball itself.

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Re: There is one criticism of super I will never agree with

Post by PFM18 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:50 pm

Dragono wrote:That it has too many tournaments. Dragon ball is a martial arts anime. Son Goku is warrior trying to become the strongest and break his limits . How does this criticism make any sense in this context? You can say they aren't good but too say that they are too many doesn't.

Dragon ball is about fighting, first and foremost, its what it is known for over its story. Storytelling in dragon ball is not bad but its often used as a way to tie the fights together which is the exact thing a tournament is good for.
People love coming up with all kinds of excuses to hate DBS even if it contradicts their assessments of the other two Dragon Ball Series.

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Re: There is one criticism of super I will never agree with

Post by Zephyr » Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:56 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:Because tournaments are lazy and boring. Tournaments are just an excuse to avoid writing a gripping and elaborate plot and introduce a well-written and captivating villain. How could anyone find tournaments entertaining? There is hardly any tension, everyone knows that the -antagonist- cannot kill the protagonists, everyone knows that there are rules made to restrain the -antagonist-, and so I fail to see how there is any tension in such a storyline.
If you ever get around to reading Akira Toriyama's Dragon Ball (which ran in Weekly Shonen Jump from 20 November 1984 to 23 May 1995) or watching Dragon Ball Super (a fresh new anime that aired from 05 July 2015 to March of this very year), you'll eventually realize that even tournaments can have real, life or death, world ending consequences. You'll also learn that villains participating in such tournaments can, and do, break these "restraining" rules.
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Dragon ball is a martial arts anime.
Dragon Ball Z clearly evolved beyond that. Let's see, Saiyan arc, not a tournament, Frieeza arc, not a tournament, Android arc, not a tournament, Cell arc, a "tournament" (it is clear that it wasn't a real tournament), Buu arc, not a tournament for the majority of the time.
It clearly did not. These are still martial artists doing martial arts against other martial artists, even if some of these martial artists are extraterrestrial and/or artificially created through science, and even if the martial arts is sometimes done in outer space. And that's completely regardless of whether or not anything Raditz-onward is "a tournament". Which, a lot of it is basically treated like one. Vegeta and Nappa treat the fight with the Earthlings like a game. Cell treated it like a game. The Saiyans treated their assault on Babidi like a game, and even after Buu destroyed Earth, Goku and Vegeta took turns because ganging up on him wouldn't be the honorable thing to do. Nevermind the fact that an overwhelming number of these recurring characters are literally wearing martial arts uniforms from the first chapter to the last.

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Re: There is one criticism of super I will never agree with

Post by climatestrange » Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:40 pm

I don't have any problem with tournaments, but I think they work better as shorter arcs. The ToP was a great idea, but it certainly didn't need to be a 50+ episode arc. The Dark Tournament from YYH is the only long tournament arc I've seen that works. Even then, it was shorter than the ToP.

I think the larger issue is that tournaments have been the only way DBS has shown us other universes. There are so many interesting stories that can be told now that Dragon Ball has a multiverse. Despite that, most of the stories have been tournaments or retreads. Bring back Freeza. Bring back Future Trunks. Bring back Broli. It holds DBS back and prevents it from establishing its own identity beyond servicing people who grew up watching DBZ.

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Re: There is one criticism of super I will never agree with

Post by mahakaishin1991 » Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:59 am

sintzu wrote:The issue isn't completely about the tournaments but rather how they dominated 2 thirds of Super's original content. Had they not wasted time on those retellings and gave us more variety in terms of arcs then no one (mostly) would've complained.
Tournaments, I feel, make more sense.

Super ups it's focus on Goku as a competitive fighter over him being an asian superman whose so so nice. It makes sense for tournaments to fit the character, as we dont have many immediate threats in his own universe, let alone challenging ones. We'd be retreading Black's time-space stuff to get a villain most of the time

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Re: There is one criticism of super I will never agree with

Post by Master Xar » Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:43 am

Yeah, tournaments are fine for me, they are Dragonball’s mainstay, it’s gripping to just simply watch two people with two different fighting styles just... fighting. It speaks to me. I once started with DBZ and went back from that to the Original Dragonball and I breathed it all in and just payed attention to the comedy and fighting.

It all speaks to me what the fighters are and what they are about without saying any words. Fists clashing like ideals, resolve in the characters spurring on and recovering or getting back up from a hit. Counters, leg sweeps, judo throws. I’ve also come to understand Dragonball’s interesting way of speaking and talking... and I now know and love the series all the more for it.

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Re: There is one criticism of super I will never agree with

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:50 am

If you ever get around to reading Akira Toriyama's Dragon Ball (which ran in Weekly Shonen Jump from 20 November 1984 to 23 May 1995) or watching Dragon Ball Super (a fresh new anime that aired from 05 July 2015 to March of this very year),
My avatar is Zamasu's face, I'd say it's pretty clear that I have watched Super. Although, I admit that it was a challenge to get through all those boring filler episodes of the Tournament of Power. How could anyone not fall asleep while watching Universe 7 stomp effortlessly through the likes of Universe 2/4/9/10?
even tournaments can have real, life or death,
To die in a tournament, you'd have to be matched against a fool, or be a crippled old man. If it's the latter, I would have to wonder what you are doing in a tournament in the first place.
world ending consequences.
Like the Tournament of Power? Right.
You'll also learn that villains participating in such tournaments can, and do, break these "restraining" rules.
And get erased on spot for doing that, like in the case of Frost.
These are still martial artists doing martial arts against other martial artists,
But not in a martial tournament. You have this notion that you need to be in a tournament setting to apply your awesome martial arts, which is not the case.
Last edited by SupremeKai25 on Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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