Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

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TajinRice
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Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by TajinRice » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:42 pm

Before any whiny person thinks this is ridiculous or some mod comes in here saying "dont promote this here". In all jobs when things are not going well. You are allowed to finish things out and they find someone new. Toyotaro has the artist skills to draw. But he does not have a clue on what hes doing story wise. He is not a writer. Nor is he a guy who can stay consistent or have a mind to understand what he does and how it affects the fans and the past stories of the series. It needs to stop. Toriyama had a different person do the manga for Son Goku and friends return. Give that person a shot. Or demote Toyotaro and have someone like Toshio who writes for the anime be the writer for the manga and Toyotaro just illustrates it with art.

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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by BlueBasilisk » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:47 pm

TajinRice wrote:Toriyama had a different person do the manga for Son Goku and friends return. Give that person a shot..
That was Naho Ooishi. She also did Episode of Bardock and is currently doing Dragon Ball SD.

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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by Kaboom » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:52 pm

You are aware that Toyotaro gets direct feedback and approval on his drafts from Toriyama, right? He's not just some renegade writer doing whatever he wants.

If you just don't like the direction or details of how both of them are handling the manga's story, fine, but Toyotaro's committed no narrative sins worth being fired for.
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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by LightBing » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:58 pm

I strongly disagree. He's has provided average to good writing with a few shining moments and most importantly his writing is consistent.
His Trunks storyline in the manga and Frost's chapter in ToP are in my opinion some of the best things to come out of Super.

It would be a mistake to remove him since he created a relationship with Mr.Toriyama and the other cogs that make the Dragon Ball machine run. So even if there's currently better people, the improvement probably wouldn't be massive and the reset would be detrimental.
Besides it's clear he's getting better with time.

That said I'm open to new people if they have the go to create Dragon Ball from scratch, without supervision from Mr.Toriyama or anybody else.

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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by emperior » Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:00 pm

While I agree I would rather see someone like Naho Ooishi or Dragon Garow Lee handling the Super’s manga with Toyotaro helping or just being moved to another project, I also think it’s unfair to be too hard on Toyotaro just because his ToP arc isn’t as good as we wanted it to be. His other arcs were decent to good and he is probably being rushed to go straight to the Broly portion around December to promote the movie. His ToP feels almost as rushed as his BoG arc, and that’s quite a difference if we compare it to the other two arcs Toyotaro worked on.
You also have a point about people being demoted or fired when their work isn’t as good as expected, and Toyotaro shouldn’t live in the comfort of his work. I don’t know what the behind the scenes are, but the being rushed thing is still just an excuse I came up with, and there probably shouldn’t be excuses.
Mangakas get their mangas cancelled when their work isn’t liked by the readers. Toyo’s is a promotional manga which probably already surpassed Shueisha’s expectations. Or maybe not. Either way, his manga will sell just because it’s Dragon Ball and the main story is written by Toriyama. If given free reign, Toyo’s manga probably wouldn’t last.
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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by OhHiRenan » Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:04 pm

Toyotaro’s dialogue for Super has been consistently better than Super’s and the manga’s plotting & pacing has been better than the anime’s since the start of the Universe 6 Tournament.

It’s insane to me how much vitriol the manga has gained in the past few months whereas the anime’s shoddy version of the Tournament of Power survive entirely on “hype” and style over substance. I’m not saying the Super manga is substantial in any meaningful way, but it at least feels more in-line with what Dragon Ball is. Or at least was.
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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by shadowfox87 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:07 pm

Toriyama handpicked Toyotaro based on his previous work with DBH Victory Mission and DBAF as toyble. He didn't just pick him out of the blue randomly because his name starts with "To". He is aware of Naho Oishi and complimented her. However, he even stated during the interview with Naho Oishi, that his own style of storytelling for Bardock is DB Minus and not Episode of Bardock despite what everyone thinks. DB Minus will be the primary background story in the upcoming movie as well. As for Dragon Garrow Lee, he is excellent at comedy and gag scenes, but his art style is nowhere close to Toriyama's. Toriyama himself stated that the person who is the closest in terms of art to his, is Toyotaro. Therefore, if you don't like Toyotaro's storytelling, too bad because almost all of the drafts are supervised by Toriyama. Toriyama said in an interview that there is always something that "bugs" him with the storyboards of the anime but with Toytoaro, he can take it easy and give it an ok right off the bat. All these storytelling points that people aren't like of Toyotaro, are actually closer to Toriyama's style. Read the manga for it is as a separate continuity. So far, there are more plot holes in the anime than in the manga. Bad story writing and plot holes are two different things. Also, wait for the entire chapter to be translated and fully released on Viz before jumping to conclusions. The anime is canon to itself and the manga is canon to itself. If you didn't like Toyotaro's latest chapter, then just stop reading the manga, plain and simple. There will soon be another interview of Toriyama on Sept. 4th and I'm sure the manga will be discussed.
Last edited by shadowfox87 on Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by Cetra » Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:11 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:He didn't just pick him out of the blue randomly because his name starts with "To".
Imagine he actually did that. That would be so Akira Toriyama.

I am not satisfied with anything Toyble does from a narrative perspective or some scenes but if I look past that I can still enjoy it.
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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by shadowfox87 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:15 pm

Cetra wrote:
shadowfox87 wrote:He didn't just pick him out of the blue randomly because his name starts with "To".
Imagine he actually did that. That would be so Akira Toriyama.

I am not satisfied with anything Toyble does from a narrative perspective or some scenes but if I look past that I can still enjoy it.
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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by kudo6000 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:15 pm

Cetra wrote:
shadowfox87 wrote:He didn't just pick him out of the blue randomly because his name starts with "To".
Imagine he actually did that. That would be so Akira Toriyama.
That would be admittedly hilarious.

On a serious note, I feel like Toriyama really only approved of Toyotaro being his "successor" because that would mean that he wouldn't have to draw the series himself. If I recall, though, didn't Shuiesha choose Toyotaro and not Toriyama?

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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by PFM18 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:24 pm

kudo6000 wrote:
Cetra wrote:
shadowfox87 wrote:He didn't just pick him out of the blue randomly because his name starts with "To".
Imagine he actually did that. That would be so Akira Toriyama.
That would be admittedly hilarious.

On a serious note, I feel like Toriyama really only approved of Toyotaro being his "successor" because that would mean that he wouldn't have to draw the series himself. If I recall, though, didn't Shuiesha choose Toyotaro and not Toriyama?
Yeah pretty much. Toriyama said himself that he doesn't want to ever have to draw manga again. This way he can write the over-arching story without actually worrying about what he considers to be the grueling process of actually drawing it himself.

I know by this point I have probably said this enough times, but I am not satisfied with Toyotaro's writing decisions in the slightest. I will say that I would not be angry if he were to be fired and I will leave it at that.

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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by kudo6000 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:28 pm

The cons in Toyotaro's manga outweigh the cons in Toei's anime adaptation. There hasn't been a single enjoyable arc, for me. His art style is also painfully mediocre in comparison to even Toriyama's more "lazily" depicted style towards the end of the original serialization. He lacks creativity and the story suffers because of it.

I would fear for the future of this franchise if Dragon Ball wasn't a mass medium run by multiple people now.

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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by PFM18 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:41 pm

kudo6000 wrote:The cons in Toyotaro's manga outweigh the cons in Toei's anime adaptation. There hasn't been a single enjoyable arc, for me. His art style is also painfully mediocre in comparison to even Toriyama's more "lazily" depicted style towards the end of the original serialization. He lacks creativity and the story suffers because of it.

I would fear for the future of this franchise if Dragon Ball wasn't a mass medium run by multiple people now.
I agree with everything you said outside of his art being "painfully mediocre." I think it looks damn near as good as Toriyama's, and if the purpose was to emulate Toriyama's style then he did a fantastic job in doing so.

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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by ekrolo2 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:42 pm

If Toyotaro deserves to get fired over the manga, he better be joined by everyone involved with Super (minus the animators) because where the writing is concerned nobody should stay.
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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by emperior » Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:51 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:Toriyama handpicked Toyotaro based on his previous work with DBH Victory Mission and DBAF as toyble. He didn't just pick him out of the blue randomly because his name starts with "To". He is aware of Naho Oishi and complimented her. However, he even stated during the interview with Naho Oishi, that his own style of storytelling for Bardock is DB Minus and not Episode of Bardock despite what everyone thinks. DB Minus will be the primary background story in the upcoming movie as well. As for Dragon Garrow Lee, he is excellent at comedy and gag scenes, but his art style is nowhere close to Toriyama's. Toriyama himself stated that the person who is the closest in terms of art to his, is Toyotaro. Therefore, if you don't like Toyotaro's storytelling, too bad because almost all of the drafts are supervised by Toriyama. Toriyama said in an interview that there is always something that "bugs" him with the storyboards of the anime but with Toytoaro, he can take it easy and give it an ok right off the bat. All these storytelling points that people aren't like of Toyotaro, are actually closer to Toriyama's style. Read the manga for it is as a separate continuity. So far, there are more plot holes in the anime than in the manga. Bad story writing and plot holes are two different things. Also, wait for the entire chapter to be translated and fully released on Viz before jumping to conclusions. The anime is canon to itself and the manga is canon to itself. If you didn't like Toyotaro's latest chapter, then just stop reading the manga, plain and simple. There will soon be another interview of Toriyama on Sept. 4th and I'm sure the manga will be discussed.
Toriyama didn't nitpick Toyotaro, and he surely never saw his AF work. We don't even know if he personally chose Toyotaro between him, Ooishi and potentially other mangakas. My idea is that they just asked Toriyama for the OK and he approved, probably because he liked how Toyotaro drew the promotional manga of RoF.

Dragon Garow Lee's artstyle is closer to Toriyama's than Toyotaro. Did you ever read the original manga? Lee is able to copy many of Toriyama's styles as shown in his Yamcha manga.
Toyotaro's bodies are completely different from Toriyama's. His faces too are definitely different. Surely, his style is very Dragon Ball but it's also his own thing. When Toriyama stated that Toyotaro's style is the closest to his I think he probably only had Yamamuro's, Ooishi's and Toyo's styles in mind. He most likely never saw anything from Lee before, and now there's also Shintani who is almost a 1:1 to him. This idea Toriyama had has probably changed.
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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by Chuquita » Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:04 pm

I stopped buying Toyotaro's manga after volume 5; partly because I'm not the biggest fan of the ToP (I only liked a third of it) and because Toyo wasn't doing anything with his version of it that I liked enough to continue purchasing. The anime version of the ToP has Takahashi; Toyo's art is more a mixture of a decade or so ago Yamamuro before he fully lost his touch and a little bit of Nakatsuru. It's serviceable, but it doesn't pop imo. It doesn't look based on any of Toriyama's art styles.

I wondered in another thread if he'd try to update his style to the incoming Shintani era, but I feel like he won't.

I don't think I'd fire him, but I would probably move him onto some other project the way they did Yamamuro. Bring in someone fresh for the inevitable Brolli movie manga and or the return of Super to tv manga adaption.
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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by Miracles » Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:10 pm

Kaboom wrote:You are aware that Toyotaro gets direct feedback and approval on his drafts from Toriyama, right? He's not just some renegade writer doing whatever he wants.

If you just don't like the direction or details of how both of them are handling the manga's story, fine, but Toyotaro's committed no narrative sins worth being fired for.
ekrolo2 wrote:If Toyotaro deserves to get fired over the manga, he better be joined by everyone involved with Super (minus the animators) because where the writing is concerned nobody should stay.
Truthfully said.
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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by sintzu » Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:10 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:If Toyotaro deserves to get fired over the manga, he better be joined by everyone involved with Super (minus the animators) because where the writing is concerned nobody should stay.
This 100%. Super's issues start with Toriyama as he's the head writer. He's the one who gives Toei and Toyotaro bare bone scripts (if you can even call them that) to work with. As far as we know Toriyama works closely with both parties so what you like or don't like goes through him and gets his approval. Next on the list would be Toei's writers as they clearly don't understand what it means for a show to have consistency. We're told and shown something one episode only for it to be completely contradicted in the next so whoever's bright idea it was to not have a head writer at Toei to keep things consistent should also go. Modern DB as a whole needs a complete overhaul when it comes to the writing department and as far as I'm concerned Toyotaro is the last person who should go as he's just following what's being given to him.
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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by IM21 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:04 pm

Kaboom wrote:You are aware that Toyotaro gets direct feedback and approval on his drafts from Toriyama, right? He's not just some renegade writer doing whatever he wants.

If you just don't like the direction or details of how both of them are handling the manga's story, fine, but Toyotaro's committed no narrative sins worth being fired for.
This. Some people probably think Toyo is doing this all on his own while the reality is that Toriyama approves every chapter that comes out.

If some of you don't like it, there is a lot of fan manga out there or just don't read it. It's pretty simple.

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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by AnimeNation101 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:18 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:
Cetra wrote:
shadowfox87 wrote:He didn't just pick him out of the blue randomly because his name starts with "To".
Imagine he actually did that. That would be so Akira Toriyama.

I am not satisfied with anything Toyble does from a narrative perspective or some scenes but if I look past that I can still enjoy it.
Toei, Toriyama, Toyotaro, Toshio Yoshitaka, Tadayoshi Yamamuro, Tatsuya Nagamine. No coincidence at all. Totally random.
Toriyama didn’t even pick out Toyotaro. He was picked up by Shueisha to do the DBH Victory Mission manga and later he requested Shueisha to let him be the manga writer and artist of the DBS Manga back when it was solely promotional and they said yes. Toriyama didn’t go out of his way to pick Toyotaro and let him work on the manga. Toyotaro was what was brought to him from Shueisha and Toriyama just went along with it.
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