Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
sintzu
Banned
Posts: 13583
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:41 pm

Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by sintzu » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:31 pm

PFM18 wrote:It certainly holds a candle to DBZ if not being equals with it. DB is a good bit better than both imo.
Equal how ? Z takes its time with each arc as each one has multiple characters and plot points happening at the same time while Super just stretches out Toriyama's drafts. Can you really say the lackluster Black arc is as good as the Namek or Cell arcs ? look at how much was going on in the Namek arc from everyone fighting for the DBs, characters coming in and out of the story and everything with Freeza. Then look at Black's arc which can be summed up as Goku and friends getting beat up, leaving, getting beat up again, etc. Look at the tournaments in the original DB then look at Champa's. the original 3 took their time with the characters and fights, they made them feel like events compared to the Goku and Vegeta show Super gave us and to make things worse, that was Super's first original arc. I don't know how you can look at the original and Super and say they're equal when they couldn't be more different. The original DB is one of the most influential manga series ever written yet you're saying Super is on its level ? I highly doubt anyone's going to look at Super for inspiration while creating a manga.
As far as other Shonen go, you are comparing the 3rd series in a franchise to Shonen's that are just starting out.
I'm talking about long running ones like Naruto and One Piece, both in terms of writing and production, both of which leave Super in the dust.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

User avatar
Skar
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 769
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:04 pm
Location: US

Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by Skar » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:20 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:If Toyotaro deserves to get fired over the manga, he better be joined by everyone involved with Super (minus the animators) because where the writing is concerned nobody should stay.
I feel the same way to be honest. I don't think they should be fired but Toyotaro isn't the only one at fault here. Based on all the differences between the two, Toriyama's outline doesn't seem very detailed. Bringing back a franchise after so many years needs more supervision from the author or at least someone who worked on the original. When I looked the other anime credits of Toei's current writers, I don't think any of them were around during the original anime.

The anime had great animation for the major battles but I can't say I enjoyed the writing. If I read a detailed synopsis for the episodes and imagine it as just a fanfiction without flashy animation then the writing feels like it's all over the place and not much is really noteworthy. It's like if an author has a team of writers working with him on a novel and says "Alright, here are the major plot points you need to cover. Each one of you works on a few chapters, add in your own details, and them put them all together".

The manga has it's own problem. It seems that Toyotaro is rushed so he's more concerned with checking off the points in Toriyama's outline and then breezing through almost everything else. There were a few things I did prefer over the anime but overall it feels like it's moving too fast once the actual tournament started.

It's hard to care as a fan if you feel there's very little effort into the series. Aside from the animation for major episodes, they're doing the bare minimum of what qualifies as passable in terms of writing and characterization in my opinion. I think it's a testament to Dragonball's popularity because I don't know if any other series could get away with handled like this. I can't come up with a reason to to justify any of this other than "I love Dragonball so I'll keep watching hoping it gets better" and that applies to both the anime and manga.

Waluigiman
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 192
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:14 pm

Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by Waluigiman » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:13 pm

He should stay longer, maybe the time scheduling is affecting his true potential and if it is not the case, experience will make him worthier.

User avatar
Lord Beerus
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20898
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:20 pm
Location: A temple on a giant tree
Contact:

Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:23 pm

I think Toyotaro, the Toei staff and Toriyama just have to start having creative meetings together to discuss how the narrative of Super should progress. Nobody needs to be fired.

User avatar
PFM18
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 3701
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:23 pm

Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by PFM18 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:25 pm

Then look at Black's arc which can be summed up as Goku and friends getting beat up, leaving, getting beat up again, etc.
This is a gross oversimplification of that arc. You could literally say something similar about almost every arc. In the Namek Arc "They are just beating up Freeza's henchmen until Freeza shows up." They are fighting his henchman and outside of the Dragon Balls there really isn't that much else going on. Yes, I do consider it to be the best arc in the franchise myself, but I also consider the Zamasu arc to be right up there with it.
they made them feel like events compared to the Goku and Vegeta show Super gave us
I see that as a natural development of the characters. Goku and Vegeta are the pure-blooded Saiyan warriors who devote their life to fighting, they should be by far the strongest and the ones to take on any oncoming threats. Besides, how the "Goku and Vegeta show" was avoided in DBZ is that the cast was literally left waiting for Goku every single time. It became a trope that happened with ridiculous frequency to the point where it became very predictable and boring. The usefulness of the rest of the cast literally stops as soon as Goku shows up. Outside of the fight vs Vegeta in the Saiyan arc, everyone's usefulness constitutes holding down the fort until Goku shows up. I would take a "Goku and Vegeta show" over a "wait for Goku show" any day of the week. Now, don't get me wrong, I think that DBZ is better but they certainly are on the same level and I think it is strange to sit here and say that they aren't in the same league.
lackluster Black arc is as good as the Namek or Cell arcs ?
I don't consider it better but I consider it to be pretty damn close. The Cell and Namek arcs are the two best arcs in the franchise to me and the Zamasu arc is right up there with them. If it wasn't for the poor ending and how Trunks's power scaling was handled, I would consider it the best arc in the franchise to be quite frank with you. It gave us a villain with a nuanced character and legitimate motivations for the first time ever rather than a generic evil guy every single damn time. It featured somebody other than Goku or Gohan being integral in the defeat of the main villain(even if Trunks had some strange moments.)

DBS features characters receiving power boosts that are ultimately more interesting and nuanced than "I spent X amount of time training." Three of Vegeta's moments where he gained huge power boosts are a reflection of his improvements in character and actually had meaning further than "yeah I totally punched the air for a year in that chamber." Aside from the two rage-induced transformations, it pretty much always comes down to spending more time training in DBZ. Generally speaking, Super Vegeta as a character is by far my favorite iteration of Vegeta and without it I would have been stuck with the garbage that is Buu arc Vegeta.

The fights are just flat out better and more interesting in Super. They have fights that aren't strictly decided by power, have more fights that aren't complete domination by one side, and feature generally more dynamic fights. Additionally, unlike DBZ, they have fights with interesting clashes in ideals and motivations rather than just being a clash of fists.

Like I said, I consider DBZ to be slightly better, but they are more or less on the same level with DB being significantly above both of them.

User avatar
ZombieVito
I Live Here
Posts: 4318
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:47 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:I think Toyotaro, the Toei staff and Toriyama just have to start having creative meetings together to discuss how the narrative of Super should progress. Nobody needs to be fired.
His art is amateurish.

That alone should be enough to replace him.

User avatar
Rakurai
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1258
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:48 pm
Contact:

Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by Rakurai » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:54 pm

Draconic wrote:Eh... Some people like the manga and it sells decently. There's no point in firing him if he's doing his job and I am sure most everybody în charge is happy with him. As much as I dislike the manga (the only DB product I've ever dropped entirely) it is taking it way too far to have him lose his living, especially since he seems genuinely pasionate and trying to (unsuccessfully) improve.

Separating the author from the product is the best. Don't attack him. Just stop giving his work attention. Don't discuss it, don't read it, don't share it (including unofficial uploads, since that's still giving it exposure). Stop buying the volumes, stuff like that. If you hate the manga enough to wish it's writer fired, this option shouldn't be that hard for you to take.
I wholeheartedly agree with you. This is honestly the stance that people should take when it comes to hating a product and wanting it to fail (for whatever reasons be it petty or vindictive the person might have).

That being said, I love the direction in which Toyo has taken his manga. I buy both the English and Japanese volumes and would drop big money if they came out with a figurine of Goku using Hakai or SSG Vegeta. On the other hand, I've never bought any anime products like the Blu-rays or figurines like SSB-KK Goku (which I don't care for either way tbh).
Super Dragon Ball Heroes Universe Mission translation compilation here. All translations are done and owned by me.

SDBH 9th anniversary the secret development interview here. Learn how original SDBH characters such as SS3 Raditz, SS4 Bardock, Robel, & more were conceived!

User avatar
Ki Breaker
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6570
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:15 am
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by Ki Breaker » Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:46 am

I am not sure where all this negativity is coming from, has the entire fandom taken a dislike to the manga suddenly or are people who like the manga simply not willing to participate anymore? Like it is for me..

The manga is by far the only thing with super's name attached that I like, and would very much appreciate if it keeps on going the same way it is now, it could improve upon a few things but that can be said about every media in existence, I have no complaints given the circumstances the manga is produced in
The Lord moves in mysterious ways but you don't have to. Please use your blinker

User avatar
sintzu
Banned
Posts: 13583
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:41 pm

Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by sintzu » Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:28 am

Ki Breaker wrote:I am not sure where all this negativity is coming from, has the entire fandom taken a dislike to the manga suddenly or are people who like the manga simply not willing to participate anymore? Like it is for me..
I've loved the manga up till the tournament's start and was always defending it but when it comes to the tournament itself, Toyotaro dropped the ball. That doesn't mean the entire manga is bad or that it can't get better in the future, just that this one part isn't very good.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

User avatar
supersaiyanZero
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 415
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:10 am

Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by supersaiyanZero » Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:33 pm

PFM18 wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:If Toyotaro deserves to get fired over the manga, he better be joined by everyone involved with Super (minus the animators) because where the writing is concerned nobody should stay.
This is so overdramatic. Super revived the franchise it sure as hell isn't producing writing worth firing everyone over.
Ekrolo is right. Some of the worst writing I've seen in an anime and lets be real - it didn't "revive" the franchise as much as they piggybacked on the previous success of the name and characters and just rushed out a bunch of garbage with Goku and co. in it. And you know what what? It worked, because we are desperate for anything Dragonball.

User avatar
Alruneia
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1627
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:40 pm
Location: Norway
Contact:

Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by Alruneia » Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:44 pm

Ki Breaker wrote:I am not sure where all this negativity is coming from, has the entire fandom taken a dislike to the manga suddenly or are people who like the manga simply not willing to participate anymore? Like it is for me.
I think it's safe to say that a lot of people who like the manga can't be bothered to get into fights with the people who dislike it anymore, yes. And I use the word "fight" instead of "argument" because that's really how it gets sometimes. There's denial of facts, childish insults and "how dare you like what I don't"-mentality everywhere (on all sides of the debate... during all debates), and sometimes the best thing you can do is to not waste your time with it, since it'll just sap all your energy and ruin your day to even try. It's seriously a shame, because I know healthy discussion between people who like the manga and people who dislike the manga is totally possible, but the bad apples really do spoil the bunch, and that's how you end up with this kind of situation.

Oh, and to the topic of the thread: He really doesn't.
Current avatar: DBU Bulla
Probably Kanzenshuu's biggest Bulla fangirl. Dragon Ball Ultimate (fanfic) progress: 64 out of 150 chapters complete

JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: Action Blue - link
(I'm just gonna start working on chapters 12-18...)

User avatar
sintzu
Banned
Posts: 13583
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:41 pm

Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by sintzu » Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:54 pm

supersaiyanZero wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:If Toyotaro deserves to get fired over the manga, he better be joined by everyone involved with Super (minus the animators) because where the writing is concerned nobody should stay.
This is so overdramatic. Super revived the franchise it sure as hell isn't producing writing worth firing everyone over.
Ekrolo is right. It didn't "revive" the franchise as much as they piggybacked on the previous success of the name and characters and just rushed out a bunch of garbage with Goku and co. in it.
If we're talking about what revived the franchise (alongside it already being popular), it was the BOG movie. That movie to this day is still not only the best thing about modern DB but also the only thing that feels like a legitimate continuation of the original story. That's not to say what came after wasn't good but it's bogged down with bad writing and fan service, something BOG didn't suffer from.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

SuperVirginGod
Newbie
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:18 am

Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by SuperVirginGod » Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:03 pm

I hope the Japanese fanbase isn't this venomous towards toyo.

Let's not forget that toyo is still learning, even toriyama knows that and toyo is under his wings. Give him some time coz it will take some time for him to become a pro. We all know the implications of it when they call him toriyama's successor. It means he will replace toriyama in the future after his retirement and they will brand the new material under his name and he'll become the future toriyama. I think this is also one of the main reason why some people have a grudge against this poor guy. They fear that he will replace toriyama and there is a good reason behind this fear i am not denying that.

Liking this or that arc can be subjective and you can't decide someone's fate based on your personal likings.

User avatar
sintzu
Banned
Posts: 13583
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:41 pm

Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by sintzu » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:31 pm

SuperVirginGod wrote:Toyo will replace toriyama in the future after his retirement and they will brand the new material under his name and he'll become the future toriyama. I think this is also one of the main reason why some people have a grudge against this poor guy.
DB is being handled in a collaborative way under multiple parties, even with Toriyama currently involved. Toriyama seems to be a guide for what the others want, not a full on writer taking DB into his own hands, something Toyotaro will probably do if he does take his place.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

User avatar
perucho1990
I Live Here
Posts: 2347
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 5:04 pm

Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by perucho1990 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:47 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:I think Toyotaro, the Toei staff and Toriyama just have to start having creative meetings together to discuss how the narrative of Super should progress. Nobody needs to be fired.
I'm going with this, Toyotaro, Toei, and Toriyama pretty much need to work together.

Toyotaro has some interesting ideas but lack proper execution, and doesnt help that other rookies mangakas like Ueda(artist for Fairy Tail 100 years quest), and Ikemoto(artist for Boruto) already seem better than him.

User avatar
Steven Bloodriver
I Live Here
Posts: 2855
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:06 pm

Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by Steven Bloodriver » Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:52 pm

TajinRice wrote:Before any whiny person thinks this is ridiculous or some mod comes in here saying "dont promote this here". In all jobs when things are not going well. You are allowed to finish things out and they find someone new. Toyotaro has the artist skills to draw. But he does not have a clue on what hes doing story wise. He is not a writer. Nor is he a guy who can stay consistent or have a mind to understand what he does and how it affects the fans and the past stories of the series. It needs to stop. Toriyama had a different person do the manga for Son Goku and friends return. Give that person a shot. Or demote Toyotaro and have someone like Toshio who writes for the anime be the writer for the manga and Toyotaro just illustrates it with art.
I completely agree, Toyotarō is definitely no DragonGarowLEE.

superfan2024
Regular
Posts: 654
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by superfan2024 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:12 pm

Lmao, why isn't this thread locked yet?

User avatar
Cure Dragon 255
I Live Here
Posts: 3735
Joined: Thu May 03, 2012 5:23 pm

Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:18 pm

TajinRice wrote:Before any whiny person thinks this is ridiculous or some mod comes in here saying "dont promote this here". In all jobs when things are not going well. You are allowed to finish things out and they find someone new. Toyotaro has the artist skills to draw. But he does not have a clue on what hes doing story wise. He is not a writer. Nor is he a guy who can stay consistent or have a mind to understand what he does and how it affects the fans and the past stories of the series. It needs to stop. Toriyama had a different person do the manga for Son Goku and friends return. Give that person a shot. Or demote Toyotaro and have someone like Toshio who writes for the anime be the writer for the manga and Toyotaro just illustrates it with art.
Too late lol.
AnimeMaakuo wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:38 am
Enjoy unboxing crap :thumbup:. Your continued support for crap will give us more crap for many years to come! :clap:.
90sDBZ wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm
19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

User avatar
Rakurai
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1258
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:48 pm
Contact:

Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by Rakurai » Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:33 pm

Steven Bloodriver wrote:
TajinRice wrote:Before any whiny person thinks this is ridiculous or some mod comes in here saying "dont promote this here". In all jobs when things are not going well. You are allowed to finish things out and they find someone new. Toyotaro has the artist skills to draw. But he does not have a clue on what hes doing story wise. He is not a writer. Nor is he a guy who can stay consistent or have a mind to understand what he does and how it affects the fans and the past stories of the series. It needs to stop. Toriyama had a different person do the manga for Son Goku and friends return. Give that person a shot. Or demote Toyotaro and have someone like Toshio who writes for the anime be the writer for the manga and Toyotaro just illustrates it with art.
I completely agree, Toyotarō is definitely no DragonGarowLEE.
DragonGarrow Lee is seriously overrated compared to Toyo. What has he shown that can compare with Toyo's works? The Yamcha story? That can't even be compared to a full serialization like DBS.

I'd rather read Toyo's DBAF work than his DB Sai work.
Super Dragon Ball Heroes Universe Mission translation compilation here. All translations are done and owned by me.

SDBH 9th anniversary the secret development interview here. Learn how original SDBH characters such as SS3 Raditz, SS4 Bardock, Robel, & more were conceived!

User avatar
BanterTheGreat
Newbie
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:30 am

Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by BanterTheGreat » Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:11 am

I agree with everything Alruneia said, but to give my own opinions:

I like the manga, a lot. I find it better than the anime on nearly every way, except certain hype moments like the final Jiren vs Everyone fight.

This thread is absolutely toxic and ridiculous. Come on now, why do you think nobody actually comes to defend the manga here? Because its the same stuff all the time, a pointless argument that only ends up becoming demoralising if you actually want to discuss a chapter in any other way than 'screw toyo he fanfic writer'. I left other sites because I couldn't talk about the manga positively without being bombarded with negative comments. Now the same is happening here? What happened to life and let life. 70% of the manga megathread is arguments about why the manga sucks / defending the manga why it doesn't suck.

Do you see me calling for toei to just quit making the DBS anime and give it to another animation studio? No, even if I don't like 90% of the damn thing, the powerscaling is thrown out of the window, random transformations make it look like fanfiction and it drags on for way to long, but do you know what? I don't start threads like this, because I know that there are fans, and it would seem incredibly dickish for me to just make a wholly negative thread about how the entire thing sucks and that toei cannot handle dragonball, even if I agree with said statement. Threads like this just become piles of negativity and toxicity.

The only thing I am happy about is that toei/toyo don't read western forums.

Post Reply