Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by ricky84 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 4:59 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
ricky84 wrote:The Buu saga, the Baby arc and anime version of the Black arc are all superior to Pre-King Piccolo arcs and the Android/Cell arc. Early DB before King Piccolo is nothing noteworthy outside of the Crane School storyline. And the Buu saga looking back is highly underrated.
The Baby arc is severely underrated along with the character himself and I'd even say the Shadow Dragon arc, especially the last part has lots of strong points. Earlier DB didn't blow my socks off but I didn't find it offensively shit the way most of the modern content is or the horrendous Cell arc. The Majin Boo one is a mixed bag for me, there's a lot to like about it but it goes on for far too long and a lot of the big players in it like Gotenks, Super Boo, Vegetto and Ultimate Gohan are beyond boring.
Boring? Vegito has more personality and charisma than 99% of the franchise's cast. Some fans even like him more than Goku and Vegeta separately.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:09 pm

ricky84 wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
ricky84 wrote:The Buu saga, the Baby arc and anime version of the Black arc are all superior to Pre-King Piccolo arcs and the Android/Cell arc. Early DB before King Piccolo is nothing noteworthy outside of the Crane School storyline. And the Buu saga looking back is highly underrated.
The Baby arc is severely underrated along with the character himself and I'd even say the Shadow Dragon arc, especially the last part has lots of strong points. Earlier DB didn't blow my socks off but I didn't find it offensively shit the way most of the modern content is or the horrendous Cell arc. The Majin Boo one is a mixed bag for me, there's a lot to like about it but it goes on for far too long and a lot of the big players in it like Gotenks, Super Boo, Vegetto and Ultimate Gohan are beyond boring.
Boring? Vegito has more personality and charisma than 99% of the franchise's cast. Some fans even like him more than Goku and Vegeta separately.
Vegetto is really boring to me, he's just a cocky asshole like Gotenks except his moveset is considerably blander than Gotenks'. I feel like he gets by solely based on the fact he's a fusion of Goku & Vegeta and being the most OP mofo in the original run.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by sintzu » Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:33 pm

Hawk9211 wrote:BOG pointed to a new direction,but it was dropped.
I don't think it was dropped but rather the franchise has become stuck between trying to follow that new direction and staying in Z's shadow. After the new direction of BOG, the decided to continue with a familiar face, Freeza in RF. After that they decided to explore another universe with a tournament but had 2 of the new 5 fighters be familiar alternate Saiyans and Freeza. After that they decided to dive into a U10 story but instead of having it set there they set it in Trunks' timeline. Last but not least, the new movie. Toriyama wanted to go into the Saiyans' history but instead of doing it through a new character, we're getting Broly again.
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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by Hawk9211 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:50 pm

sintzu wrote:
Hawk9211 wrote:BOG pointed to a new direction,but it was dropped.
I don't think it was dropped but rather the franchise has become stuck between trying to follow that new direction and staying in Z's shadow. After the new direction of BOG, the decided to continue with a familiar face, Freeza in RF. After that they decided to explore another universe with a tournament but had 2 of the new 5 fighters be familiar alternate Saiyans and Freeza. After that they decided to dive into a U10 story but instead of having it set there they set it in Trunks' timeline. Last but not least, the new movie. Toriyama wanted to go into the Saiyans' history but instead of doing it through a new character, we're getting Broly again.
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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by Hawk9211 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:51 pm

sintzu wrote:
Hawk9211 wrote:BOG pointed to a new direction,but it was dropped.
I don't think it was dropped but rather the franchise has become stuck between trying to follow that new direction and staying in Z's shadow. After the new direction of BOG, the decided to continue with a familiar face, Freeza in RF. After that they decided to explore another universe with a tournament but had 2 of the new 5 fighters be familiar alternate Saiyans and Freeza. After that they decided to dive into a U10 story but instead of having it set there they set it in Trunks' timeline. Last but not least, the new movie. Toriyama wanted to go into the Saiyans' history but instead of doing it through a new character, we're getting Broly again.
They are literally going in circles,circles that are getting smaller.They take one step ahead and two steps backwards.
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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:58 pm

Cipher wrote:
shadowfox87 wrote:Exactly. An author shouldn't be judged for a single chapter or a few instances. He's done much more work. The majority of the people in this forum haven't even read Victory Mission. Toyotaro needs more chapters to add more detail between panels. However, since he's limited to a monthly manga and limited number of pages per chapter, he can only do so much. If this was a weekly manga in Shonen Jump, things would be a lot different.
I think that might kill the poor guy. Weekly is for manga gods.

But yes, I think we'd be seeing better work from him an environment with a more comfortable monthly page count (Super's current chapters are long), and probably without the creative pressures of working under Toriyama and with de-facto pacing deadlines of upcoming Super arcs, movies, etc.

Which is also not me recommending that Toyotaro just run the show on the sequel while Toriyama steps away. I don't know what I'm suggesting other than that Toyotaro is a better comic author and artist than the current chapters in Super would otherwise indicate.
I think Toyotaro would thrive if he got to do his own version of Super, using only general premises similar to the anime. As it stands, the manga has two big issue I feel make it such a lightning rod for people. 1) A lot of it is hitting exactly the same beats as the anime but because the bombast of the anime is not present here due in part to the fact its a manga, lacking in voice acting, music and movement and Toyotaro's own limitations as a fighting artist, it makes a lot of people who love the anime consider the manga as a lesser, diet version of the main product. 2) when Toyotaro DOES do something different, people who've experienced this most similar thing in the anime will react poorly or get thrown off by whatever alteration he puts forth. This is a BIG problem with the anime & manga community where if an anime adaptation of the manga changed anything, it would get lynched for it and now, the opposite is happening to Toyotaro.

Hence why I think Toyotaro should've been allowed to do his own version of Super. No Toriyama oversight, no strict adherence to the outlines. He gets the story premise, rough ideas for who's supposed to appear in the new arc than just let loose to do his own thing. Might be better, might be worse but it would immediately tell people how different it is and would let it be judged on its own two feet. As it stands, the manga is stuck between a rock and an irrelevant place where lots and lots of stuff is exactly the same as the anime while others isn't which doesn't help it for the reasons I explained above.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by Marlowe89 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:35 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:*snip*
There's a lot of truth to that, but I think a bigger part of the problem was the decision to have two different versions of the same story in the first place. Tribalism tends to be a natural occurrence in larger fanbases, and it's exacerbated in situations like this on both sides. That's not to claim it applies to everyone - some people love or hate both formats of Super, and others at least might see the merits of both - but it leads to a lot of individuals taking every opportunity they can to shit on the version they don't like while doing the polar opposite for the version they prefer. There's a fine line between trying to assess these stories fairly and with an open mind, and displaying overwhelming bias to the point that you're criticizing one for the same thing you'd give the other an easy pass for all while rationalizing its presence.

If I'm coming across as preachy here, that's not my intention: I think a perfect world would have Toyotaro and Toei working together to play off of each other's strengths, but that's also coming from someone who wants to enjoy DBS as something more than a simple cash-in multimedia project.

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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:07 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:*snip*
There's a lot of truth to that, but I think a bigger part of the problem was the decision to have two different versions of the same story in the first place. Whether people want to acknowledge it or not, tribalism tends to be a natural occurrence in larger fanbases; it's exacerbated in situations like this on both sides. That's not to claim it applies to everyone - some people love or hate both formats of Super, and others at least might see the merits of both - but it leads to a lot of individuals taking every opportunity they can to shit on the version they don't like while doing the polar opposite for the version they prefer. There's a fine line between trying to assess these stories fairly and with an open mind, and displaying overwhelming bias to the point that you're criticizing one for the same thing you'd give the other an easy pass for all while rationalizing its presence.

If I'm coming across as preachy here, that's not my intention: I think a perfect world would have Toyotaro and Toei working together to play off of each other's strengths, but that's also coming from someone who wants to enjoy DBS as something more than a simple cash-in multimedia project.

The anime is doing well. The manga is doing well. That's all that matters really. Evidently nothing is being affected. Don't think Toei/Sheuisha need to worry that a few fans squabble. Let them.

This is DB we already have fandoms within a fandom you know, where people activately take pleasure in X character not doing well etc. So no matter what we'd get stuff like this. Problem as always is with this fanbase. I mean this thread itself is ridiculous. I don't like the manga much but to say Toyotaro should get fired over something subjective is very dumb.

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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by PFM18 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:58 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:Gonna be even more of a "radical" here than PFM18 and say everything after Namek was a mistake.
Because it is so radical to say that Dragon Ball Super, which is very popular right now, is actually good.....
supersaiyanZero wrote:Let's put it this way - if DBS didn't have characters that looked like Goku and Vegeta, it would be more bottom of the barrel than it already is.
I don't much care for unfounded speculation such as this. Objectively speaking Dragon Ball Super has performed very well and it is reasonable to assume that this is a reflection of the quality of the show.
lack/Zamasu was an interesting villain, I will give you that, even though I think the execution was butchered beyond belief
I can't help but disagree here but I don't have anything further to say because you didn't actually make any points critiquing the execution of the villain so there's nothing to refute.
And I'm not even going to address the "ideals and motivations" argument from you because anybody who tries to tell me there was some deeper nuanced multi-layered clash of ideals in Goku vs Jiren is just not fit to form an opinion. Period.
Ok, this is just hilarious. You pretend as though it is so ridiculous to say that there's a layered conflict within the Goku vs Jiren fight when it is clear as day that this is the case and one of the directors literally wrote up several pages explaining the nuance of this fight. If you want to pretend that this wasn't the case, that is fine and it isyour own prerogative, but don't sit here and discredit other people's opinions based on your irrational conclusions.

Just the premise of saying "they're just not fit to form an opinion" as though there are some arbitrary requirements to form an opinion is comically ridiculous. You're essentially just saying "I'm right because I say so and my opinion is better than yours."
And DBS characters reveiving power boosts that are more interesting and nuanced? LOL, are you serious? I can't even take this seriously. There is not one transformation or power boost in that entire series that felt like it had any weight or "nuance" as you put it whatsoever. And the fights, sigh, were abysmal for the most part. I still think Recoome vs Vegeta shits on almost any fight in Super - and ironically enough Recoome in that regard was everything that Jiren was supposed to be in terms of an opponent.
The truth of the matter is that this series is littered with instances like this whether you choose to see them or not. You may not take it seriously but I don't particularly care. As far as not taking things seriously though, the bolded is something that is truly hard to take seriously and illustrates how incredibly biased are if you can't even give the fights in the series the credit they deserve.
Last edited by PFM18 on Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by batistabus » Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:19 am

As a wise man once said...
The only person other than Toriyama who has shown to be able to put out decent enough art while also crafting a Toriyama-esque story in the 25+ years this franchise has been around is Toyotaro.
If we never got a Toyotaro DBS manga, I wouldn't care NEARLY as much about Super as I do. The biggest draw this series offers me is continued contributions by Toriyama, whose flavor is far too muddled in Toei's version for my liking.

If Dragon Ball is to ever continue without Toriyama - which will hopefully not be for a very long time - Toyotaro is the only person I trust to tell the story of Son Goku and his friends. Toei should stick to extended-universe content (the Bardock special) or blatant fan-service commercials (Dragon Ball Heroes).

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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by prince212 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:43 am

batistabus wrote:As a wise man once said...
The only person other than Toriyama who has shown to be able to put out decent enough art while also crafting a Toriyama-esque story in the 25+ years this franchise has been around is Toyotaro.
If we never got a Toyotaro DBS manga, I wouldn't care NEARLY as much about Super as I do. The biggest draw this series offers me is continued contributions by Toriyama, whose flavor is far too muddled in Toei's version for my liking.

If Dragon Ball is to ever continue without Toriyama - which will hopefully not be for a very long time - Toyotaro is the only person I trust to tell the story of Son Goku and his friends. Toei should stick to extended-universe content (the Bardock special) or blatant fan-service commercials (Dragon Ball Heroes).
I’m more than ok with TOyotaro drawing this manga . About him continuing the series without TOriyama ... I don’t have any idea , We don’t know if he’s capable or not , because right now ... he’s not really writing anything, he’s adapting some script or ideas On top of that he is being supervised by toriyama and who knows ... so we don’t know if he’s good or not at storytelling... I mean after his db af .. that was good for my taste , in fact super had a bunch of surprisingly coincidences
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by Koitsukai » Sun Aug 26, 2018 2:10 am

I absolutely disagree with this thread in every way, about Toyotaro's work and about wanting some dude who draws get sacked like is just a hobby, and this made me wonder... is Toyotaro earning enough cash to really don't give too fucks by now if they do let him go? totally off topic, yeah, I'm asking if he is well-paid or if it is like the male pornstar thing?

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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by sintzu » Sun Aug 26, 2018 3:07 am

PFM18 wrote:Because it is so radical to say that Dragon Ball Super is actually good.....

Dragon Ball Super has performed very well and it is reasonable to assume that this is a reflection of the quality of the show.
It's good in the sense that it can be watched and enjoyed but once you start comparing it to other anime, including DB/Z, it starts to fall apart.

Its performance is a reflection of the franchise's popularity as not many franchises can afford to put out such a flawed product and get away with it.
Koitsukai wrote:Is Toyotaro earning enough cash to really don't give too fucks by now if they do let him go?
Of course not as the only people who can do that are veterans like Toriyama and other huge name Mangaka. He's working on DB so I'm sure they're paying him well but not to the point where he can afford to just be fired.
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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by BanterTheGreat » Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:21 am

TajinRice wrote: Eastern forums are just as upset. And heres where you are wrong. Toei owns DB. So if they put out a bad product you cant call for a different studio. What you can do is call for different directors and show runners. Toyotaro is an employee. And hes doing a terrible job. 90% of the fan base have not been happy with his work since late Zamasu arc. Your problem is you want the world to be all bubble gum and rainbows. No its not like that. And to say someone should be reassigned or let go and maybe someone else should be given a shot to head the manga is not toxic. If something is bad it can be called for what it is or everything everywhere will continue to crank out garbage. I guess we cant criticize the Transformers movies, we cant say it needs a new director so on and so forth right?

Do you hear me make threats about how Toei should have never owned DB? How they should just stop the series because its trash? How they should fire all writers currently working on it? Good job with pulling that 90% out of your behind mind you. Having a random percentage come from nowhere is pointless, You know what is toxic? The fact that people can't enjoy the manga because half the thread is full of people debating and the other half is drawn out by said debate. So please, give some source, and I expect a whole study about this good old 90%. Because guess what, the manga sells fine.

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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by Cipher » Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:51 am

prince212 wrote:I’m more than ok with TOyotaro drawing this manga . About him continuing the series without TOriyama ... I don’t have any idea , We don’t know if he’s capable or not , because right now ... he’s not really writing anything, he’s adapting some script or ideas On top of that he is being supervised by toriyama and who knows ... so we don’t know if he’s good or not at storytelling... I mean after his db af .. that was good for my taste , in fact super had a bunch of surprisingly coincidences
Again, having recently read the entirety of Victory Mission, which is--amazingly, shockingly, a well-constructed comic and easily Toyotaro's best--he's a much better scripter than either AF (which I can't say many kind things about, other than nailing occasional character-based humor) or Super (okay) let on. He definitely captures the Toriyama elements of treating his casts sincerely no matter how absurd the circumstances, being willing to go big and play loose with his own rules, and nailing dry humor. Not on the level of Toriyama, but I think he's easily the major fan/spin-off artist who's come closest to the original's tone and spirit.

I'll note for the record that I don't want to see the story of Goku and friends continued without Toriyama. But reading Victory Mission brought me around on the idea of someone doing a kind of continuation like that, provided the writer has some kind of vision for it. (Which sounds weird since I'm talking about a promotional comic, but bear with and read through my bizarre journey into winding up liking it through that Twitter read-through--though that's also a special case in that it's a stealth GT sequel and thus playing off of ideas that have already diverged from Toriyama, so I don't know.)

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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by sangofe » Sun Aug 26, 2018 9:26 am

Cipher wrote:
prince212 wrote:I’m more than ok with TOyotaro drawing this manga . About him continuing the series without TOriyama ... I don’t have any idea , We don’t know if he’s capable or not , because right now ... he’s not really writing anything, he’s adapting some script or ideas On top of that he is being supervised by toriyama and who knows ... so we don’t know if he’s good or not at storytelling... I mean after his db af .. that was good for my taste , in fact super had a bunch of surprisingly coincidences
Again, having recently read the entirety of Victory Mission, which is--amazingly, shockingly, a well-constructed comic and easily Toyotaro's best--he's a much better scripter than either AF (which I can't say many kind things about, other than nailing occasional character-based humor) or Super (okay) let on. He definitely captures the Toriyama elements of treating his casts sincerely no matter how absurd the circumstances, being willing to go big and play loose with his own rules, and nailing dry humor. Not on the level of Toriyama, but I think he's easily the major fan/spin-off artist who's come closest to the original's tone and spirit.

I'll note for the record that I don't want to see the story of Goku and friends continued without Toriyama. But reading Victory Mission brought me around on the idea of someone doing a kind of continuation like that, provided the writer has some kind of vision for it. (Which sounds weird since I'm talking about a promotional comic, but bear with and read through my bizarre journey into winding up liking it through that Twitter read-through--though that's also a special case in that it's a stealth GT sequel and thus playing off of ideas that have already diverged from Toriyama, so I don't know.)
Has this been translated to english?

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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by Draconic » Sun Aug 26, 2018 9:39 am

ekrolo2 wrote:I think Toyotaro would thrive if he got to do his own version of Super, using only general premises similar to the anime. As it stands, the manga has two big issue I feel make it such a lightning rod for people. 1) A lot of it is hitting exactly the same beats as the anime but because the bombast of the anime is not present here due in part to the fact its a manga, lacking in voice acting, music and movement and Toyotaro's own limitations as a fighting artist, it makes a lot of people who love the anime consider the manga as a lesser, diet version of the main product. 2) when Toyotaro DOES do something different, people who've experienced this most similar thing in the anime will react poorly or get thrown off by whatever alteration he puts forth. This is a BIG problem with the anime & manga community where if an anime adaptation of the manga changed anything, it would get lynched for it and now, the opposite is happening to Toyotaro.

Hence why I think Toyotaro should've been allowed to do his own version of Super. No Toriyama oversight, no strict adherence to the outlines. He gets the story premise, rough ideas for who's supposed to appear in the new arc than just let loose to do his own thing. Might be better, might be worse but it would immediately tell people how different it is and would let it be judged on its own two feet. As it stands, the manga is stuck between a rock and an irrelevant place where lots and lots of stuff is exactly the same as the anime while others isn't which doesn't help it for the reasons I explained above.
Quite surprisingly I agree with the idea of what you're trying to get here, but the bold part is very ignorant, I must say. The bombastic nature of the anime is not given by it's movement, it's voice acting or it's music. It's given from how all those things are blended together to convey said spectacle.

While the manga doesn't have these advantages, by nature of being a comic, it has it's own fair share.
For one, by being on page, he's not limited by cutting between frames. This gives it the advantage of conveying exactly what he wants by directing the flow of a scene in a much more personal manner, by basically instructing the reader on how to follow the action (as opposed to dictating in animated format).
The other is the spread page (or half spread), in which he can break the pace of any scene to indicate the impact of one particular moment, a turning point in the scene or simply a cool looking pose.
And, another big one is consistency in art. Sure, when the animators are great it's cool to see their styles brought to the forefront, but in turn can also pull you out of a scene if it's not done well. This is something a comic artist doesn't even have to worry about. Even anatomical mistakes become part of his style (Toyo's necks?) and at one point accepted or at least expected.

The reason the manga isn't getting as bombastic as the anime is because Toyotaro doesn't seem to grasp his fundemental advantages, compared to the animators and directors of the show. I've never really seen this kind of rethoric before the Super manga. Not with Toriyama, who was an amazing action artist in his prime, even when he started to lose his steam in the Buu arc, many of his fights being as great or greater to read than they are to watch and not with the plethora of other mangaka (or western artists for that matter) writing action comics.
The manga can easily achive the same heights of spectacle the anime does, as it's been proven in the finale of the Zamasu arc, which is as enjoyabe to read as it was to watch episode 66 or, if we extend the argument beyond fights, as evidenced by the spectacular introduction of Goku Black.
Vegetto Blue and Blue Goku vs Zamasu are terrific fights and single handedly redeemed that arc for me, so to excuse the manga's blandness and less than mediocre spectacle by saying it just seems like it because the anime excels at it is just that, an excuse.

It's not even because Toyotaro is a mediocre fighting artist. I'm sure there's more going on behind the scenes that stop him from achieving his full potential, but if the anime is open to criticism when it drops the ball on spectacle, even though we know it's scheduling problems, the manga is as well.
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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by Cipher » Sun Aug 26, 2018 9:51 am

sangofe wrote:Has this been translated to english?
Sadly on the first thirteen chapters well, and only through 15 in any quality. (Which is a real shame, since 16 is where it really comes into its own, even though it's fun and well-crafted before that.)

I do suspect someone will see to it that the back half gets a translation in the near future though.
Draconic wrote:It's not even because Toyotaro is a mediocre fighting artist. I'm sure there's more going on behind the scenes that stop him from achieving his full potential, but if the anime is open to criticism when it drops the ball on spectacle, even though we know it's scheduling problems, the manga is as well.
I actually thought Toyotaro was just a mediocre action artist, because even at its best, Super's action has always felt a little bland to me. (Though I wind up liking it overall on other grounds.) Victory Mission brought me around on that, as, while paneling is still cramped and his page flow isn't as good as Toriyamas, it has some truly enjoyable fights.

I suspect both the intense page count and strict creative environment of Super are really bringing him down. That, and potentially the all-action nature of the current arc burning him out.

Toriyama could do it, but most people aren't Toriyama. If they were, we probably wouldn't be talking about Dragon Ball thirty years later.

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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:05 am

Draconic wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:I think Toyotaro would thrive if he got to do his own version of Super, using only general premises similar to the anime. As it stands, the manga has two big issue I feel make it such a lightning rod for people. 1) A lot of it is hitting exactly the same beats as the anime but because the bombast of the anime is not present here due in part to the fact its a manga, lacking in voice acting, music and movement and Toyotaro's own limitations as a fighting artist, it makes a lot of people who love the anime consider the manga as a lesser, diet version of the main product. 2) when Toyotaro DOES do something different, people who've experienced this most similar thing in the anime will react poorly or get thrown off by whatever alteration he puts forth. This is a BIG problem with the anime & manga community where if an anime adaptation of the manga changed anything, it would get lynched for it and now, the opposite is happening to Toyotaro.

Hence why I think Toyotaro should've been allowed to do his own version of Super. No Toriyama oversight, no strict adherence to the outlines. He gets the story premise, rough ideas for who's supposed to appear in the new arc than just let loose to do his own thing. Might be better, might be worse but it would immediately tell people how different it is and would let it be judged on its own two feet. As it stands, the manga is stuck between a rock and an irrelevant place where lots and lots of stuff is exactly the same as the anime while others isn't which doesn't help it for the reasons I explained above.
Quite surprisingly I agree with the idea of what you're trying to get here, but the bold part is very ignorant, I must say. The bombastic nature of the anime is not given by it's movement, it's voice acting or it's music. It's given from how all those things are blended together to convey said spectacle.

While the manga doesn't have these advantages, by nature of being a comic, it has it's own fair share.
For one, by being on page, he's not limited by cutting between frames. This gives it the advantage of conveying exactly what he wants by directing the flow of a scene in a much more personal manner, by basically instructing the reader on how to follow the action (as opposed to dictating in animated format).
The other is the spread page (or half spread), in which he can break the pace of any scene to indicate the impact of one particular moment, a turning point in the scene or simply a cool looking pose.
And, another big one is consistency in art. Sure, when the animators are great it's cool to see their styles brought to the forefront, but in turn can also pull you out of a scene if it's not done well. This is something a comic artist doesn't even have to worry about. Even anatomical mistakes become part of his style (Toyo's necks?) and at one point accepted or at least expected.

The reason the manga isn't getting as bombastic as the anime is because Toyotaro doesn't seem to grasp his fundemental advantages, compared to the animators and directors of the show. I've never really seen this kind of rethoric before the Super manga. Not with Toriyama, who was an amazing action artist in his prime, even when he started to lose his steam in the Buu arc, many of his fights being as great or greater to read than they are to watch and not with the plethora of other mangaka (or western artists for that matter) writing action comics.
The manga can easily achive the same heights of spectacle the anime does, as it's been proven in the finale of the Zamasu arc, which is as enjoyabe to read as it was to watch episode 66 or, if we extend the argument beyond fights, as evidenced by the spectacular introduction of Goku Black.
Vegetto Blue and Blue Goku vs Zamasu are terrific fights and single handedly redeemed that arc for me, so to excuse the manga's blandness and less than mediocre spectacle by saying it just seems like it because the anime excels at it is just that, an excuse.

It's not even because Toyotaro is a mediocre fighting artist. I'm sure there's more going on behind the scenes that stop him from achieving his full potential, but if the anime is open to criticism when it drops the ball on spectacle, even though we know it's scheduling problems, the manga is as well.
I probably worded that poorly, what I meant to convey is the fact comics and by extension manga, have a harder time to pulling off things film and television can precisely because they lack voice acting, music and elements like it. Which isn't to say a good artist can't make something as impactul, like you said, Black's manga introduction and Merged Zamasu vs Completed Blue Goku are perfect examples of Toyotaro, nevermind Toriyama, pulling it off thanks to the way scenes are framed, choreography,... but it is an absolutely easier time for a TV show & film to do it thanks to elements manga & comics don't have. Frank Miller pretty famously talked about this exact thing.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):

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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Mon Aug 27, 2018 2:43 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:*snip*
There's a lot of truth to that, but I think a bigger part of the problem was the decision to have two different versions of the same story in the first place. Tribalism tends to be a natural occurrence in larger fanbases, and it's exacerbated in situations like this on both sides. That's not to claim it applies to everyone - some people love or hate both formats of Super, and others at least might see the merits of both - but it leads to a lot of individuals taking every opportunity they can to shit on the version they don't like while doing the polar opposite for the version they prefer. There's a fine line between trying to assess these stories fairly and with an open mind, and displaying overwhelming bias to the point that you're criticizing one for the same thing you'd give the other an easy pass for all while rationalizing its presence.

If I'm coming across as preachy here, that's not my intention: I think a perfect world would have Toyotaro and Toei working together to play off of each other's strengths, but that's also coming from someone who wants to enjoy DBS as something more than a simple cash-in multimedia project.
I just don't see the tribalism in the Super fandom to be very legitimate though, most of it comes from people who hate the bad writing in the anime, often hold the manga in higher regard as the 'alternate' version of events or even going as far as expecting it to "fix" nitpicks off the anime people have. Therefore they will stand by the manga for the majority of concepts they feel it handles better. Where as the Anime fans tend to be the very vocal casual side and newbies to the DB franchise and are mostly defending the anime off of the immense hype they put on it just because its new and cinematic. Most people I've seen that hate the manga, only do so because they have memes going for the hype of the anime they have and they don't like that the manga doesn't reflect it. Or there are people who for whatever reason just assume the anime is what the "true" events are because it came out first.

Your point on people not assessing the series' fairly is correct. Because people don't judge the manga within its own continuity or at least what it is connected to. The DB manga. Not the anime. People who extensively bash the manga, tend to do so in favor of the anime off so much as just a scene preference as opposed to analyzing the concepts and quality of their representation. For example, people have set the bar high for how they want to see UI in the manga, based on Toei exaggerating it into a power up, but if Toyotaro doesn't do what they expect it to be based on Toei's writing, he will automatically be dumped on for not giving the same cinematic experiences, even if his direction wasn't going the same way to begin with.

Then there just is the inevitable where a series like DB that is mostly made up of anime casuals, you're going to have a lot of surface-thinking where momentary stimulation and memes become how promotion is decided among the majority. Not actual assessment; but people deemed as "hating" or "too negative" when their hype is at stake. Thats pretty much how I've seen it from people who defend the anime collectively.
Last edited by SingleFringe&Sparks on Mon Aug 27, 2018 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.

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