Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

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ekrolo2
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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by ekrolo2 » Mon Aug 27, 2018 3:26 pm

SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:I just don't see the tribalism in the Super fandom to be very legitimate though, most of it comes from people who hate the bad writing in the anime, often hold the manga in higher regard as the 'alternate' version of events or even going as far as expecting it to "fix" nitpicks off the anime people have. Therefore they will stand by the manga for the majority of conceits they feel it handles better. Where as the Anime fans tend to be the very vocal casual side and newbies to the DB franchise and are mostly defending the anime off of the immense hype they put on it just because its new and cinematic. Most people I've seen that hate the manga, only do so because they have memes going for the hype of the anime they have and they don't like that the manga doesn't reflect it. Or there are people who for whatever reason just assume the anime is what the "true" events are because it came out first.

Your point on people not assessing the series' fairly is correct. Because people don't judge the manga within its own continuity or at least what it is connected to. The DB manga. Not the anime. People who extensively bash the manga, tend to do so in favor of the anime, off so much as just a scene preference as opposed to analyzing the concepts and quality of their representation. If the Super anime had bad areas of writing in it, comparing the manga to an already bad aspect in the anime doesn't make sense. For example, people have set the bar high for how they want to see UI in the manga, based on Toei exaggerating it into a power up, but if Toyotaro doesn't do what they expect it to be based on Toei's writing, he will automatically be dumped on for not giving the same cinematic experiences, even if his direction wasn't going the same way to begin with.

Then there just is the inevitable where a series like DB that is mostly made up of anime casuals, you're going to have a lot of surface-thinking where momentary stimulation and memes become how promotion is decided among the majority. Not actual assessment people deem as "hating" or "too negative" when their hype is at stake. Thats pretty much how I've seen it from people who defend the anime collectively.
The manga absolutely has a perception problem with the fandom where lots of people can't or won't judge it on its own merits but to say the anime people are all casuals who can't think to handwave away the mangas own issues isn't really fair either. As someone who recently went through the Black arc again in the manga and completely removed all anime comparisons away, issues persist. Manga Black is a generic DB antagonist past his excellent introduction, clunky exposition is plentiful for things we don't really need it for and certain revelations scream ass pull-y like Trunks' healing and the tone deafness of the ending. Regardless if the anime existed, these would be legitimate problems with the manga's version of events.
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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Mon Aug 27, 2018 3:38 pm

TajinRice wrote:Eastern forums are just as upset.
Where is your proof of this?
TajinRice wrote:Toyotaro is an employee. And hes doing a terrible job. 90% of the fan base have not been happy with his work since late Zamasu arc.
There isnt much storyline to judge that on and most of the key events in the TOP arc are basically the same. I don't see where the excessive hate comes from over it. The arc itself had nothing much to it at all. Ths most people complain about what character is doing what or fighting whom as their source of nitpicking. Based on their logic, wishful match-ups not happening does not make the manga's events bad.[/quote]
TajinRice wrote:Your problem is you want the world to be all bubble gum and rainbows. No its not like that. And to say someone should be reassigned or let go and maybe someone else should be given a shot to head the manga is not toxic.
It is toxic if he should be fired over arbitrary aspects of the manga you don't like, let alone people not liking it for their own reasons, with biases in mind. Who would you replace him with I've not yet read any DB fanfic/doujinshi that was equally as good as the prime of the series and I'd argue most of the Super anime's writers barely know DB at all but just writing in all the easiest cliche'd shounen tropes to fill in the plot. Nothing more. Toyotaro might as well be the best that we have.
TajinRice wrote:If something is bad it can be called for what it is or everything everywhere will continue to crank out garbage. I guess we cant criticize the Transformers movies, we cant say it needs a new director so on and so forth right?
If you define the manga being bad, when just compared to the Super anime - I cant take that assessment seriously.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.

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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by PFM18 » Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:34 pm

SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:If you define the manga being bad, when just compared to the Super anime - I cant take that assessment seriously
And why not?

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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by reecehoward » Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:42 pm

BlueBasilisk wrote:I don't think he should be fired, but he really should take some time to work on his fundamentals. Anatomy, compososition, and story structure in particular.
This right here. Toyo has potential, but for some reason when I read the manga I feel like no one's really reigning him in and questioning his decisions. Toriyama had tgat during his original run up until the Buu arc, and that arc suffers the most because of it. Everything Toyo has written is beneath the quality of that arc, which speaks volumes to me. On top of all of that, I truly believe in the depths of my heart that of the anime followed Toyo's work, I wouldn't be interested in any of Super's newcomers. Like almost all of them fall flat the way he writes them. These past few chapters have been completely unacceptable. Give him an editor, one who doesn't let anything slide and makes Toyotaro step his game up, especially if fans are wanting the manga to be the main product like back in the day. Just my opinion.

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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by Miracles » Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:43 pm

The guy traced Captain America and got rewarded by Shuiesha labeling the Super manga as the official continuity of Toriyama's original Dragonball manga.

I also hear he is having an interview coming out with Toriyama in the next volume too.


He isn't going anywhere. :lol:
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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by sintzu » Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:49 am

Miracles wrote:I hear he is having an interview coming out with Toriyama in the next volume too.
Thanks for the reminder. :thumbup: If I'm not mistaking it'll be out on the 4th of September.
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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by Cipher » Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:08 am

Miracles wrote:The guy traced Captain America and got rewarded by Shuiesha labeling the Super manga as the official continuity of Toriyama's original Dragonball manga.
...When did this happen?

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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:41 am

Cipher wrote:
Miracles wrote:The guy traced Captain America and got rewarded by Shuiesha labeling the Super manga as the official continuity of Toriyama's original Dragonball manga.
...When did this happen?
You mean the tracing accusations? Back in May.

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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by Cipher » Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:13 am

Lord Beerus wrote:
Cipher wrote:
Miracles wrote:The guy traced Captain America and got rewarded by Shuiesha labeling the Super manga as the official continuity of Toriyama's original Dragonball manga.
...When did this happen?
You mean the tracing accusations? Back in May.
No; I was around and active when that was a big discussion. I meant the second part.

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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:24 am

Cipher wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
Cipher wrote: ...When did this happen?
You mean the tracing accusations? Back in May.
No; I was around and active when that was a big discussion. I meant the second part.
Oh, that. What he's referring to is the Dragon Ball mural that was put on display for San Diego Comic-Con this year which mention that Dragon Ball Super manga was the "canon" sequel to the Toriyama's manga. It was later discovered that the display was translated, edited and fact checked by the Viz editor for the Dragon Ball Super manga.

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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by Green_Goblin » Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:36 pm

The only problems I had with Toyotaro so far were the chapters of the Tournament of Power chapters, that's it. His art is good, he just have fell short in this rushed pace required from him due to the upcoming Broly movie PR manga. BTW I was disappointed that in the ToP he didn't portrayed the eliminations of many fighters. But, welp, it's rushed.

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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by The gr » Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:47 pm

No while i haven't enjoyed the last two Top chapter, I still think he is doing a fine job promoting DBS and the art isn't as bad as people think, just please read Goku vs Merged Zamasu.

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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by Nazabrax » Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:55 pm

While not being bad at all, I seriously think that there's something very lack luster in Toyble's writing and his way of depicting enemies feels very fanfiction and generic somehow. And while I find his skill at drawing Toriyama characters quite compelling, it is still a long shot from the original work (I barely can remember manga panels from Toyotaro and all of the ones I find memorable seem to be quasi traced from Toriyama's work). And as minimum as it is the supervision from Toriyama, I still find him way more on point with his corrections than Toyo, like the ones Tori did with Toyble first Zamasu design (after all, that is what Tori excells at: character design).

Toyble manages to do very good fights from time to time though, like Zamasu vs Goku last battle or Vegito vs Zamasu...but those encounters are supposed to be the climax of their arc so those battles being at least good was expected. I don't think he should be fired tho; I think what he needs is way better direction besides Toriyama; I believe that Toyotaro lacks his own Torishima-like editor since Toriyama is too soft and goes along with most of the things Toyo goes for, besides pivotal plot points.

But Toriyama also is not thaaat good and unfortunately, since his way of writing is basically creating everything at the moment instead of carefuly planning the plot, his storytelling skills are also diminished due to the fact that he is not drawing the manga like before; I guess that when he drew it he focused a lot more on the development of his story due to investing way more time and direct effort in his work. Toriyama says him not having to draw anymore helps him to invest more time on creating a story, but I believe he's just in a confort zone and that prevents his greatest storytelling skills to show up; we'll see if he really means that "I want to make it look as if everything was connected from The beginning so that I can look cool" when the Broly movie finally shows up in theaters.

If Toyo doesn't stop being generic (Black in the manga is Zaiko and personalitiy Wise both are generic AF) and improves his story telling then I'm not happy with him being Tori succesor.

I also think that the best Toyo has are his drawing skills, but his composition sense and creativity are quite lame. Who is The guy that drew the doujinshi where Goku changes places with Vegeta? If I had to pick anyone to draw the manga after TOP it would definitively be him. I just find his composition sense way more developed and eye pleasing, not to mention his fighting panels are very superior to Toyble ones IMO.

Sorry about the bad english.
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One evening half a year ago, I picked up a stray cat. It was raining that night, and the cat looked so pitiful, I decided to bring it into the house until the rain stopped. But, it's a cute, friendly cat, and we ended up keeping it after all. It's solid black, so we named it "Koge" ("scorched"). In addition, my assistant hates big cats. Matsuyama-kun gets really scared when he comes into work now.

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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by reecehoward » Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:13 pm

Nazabrax wrote:While not being bad at all, I seriously think that there's something very lack luster in Toyble's writing and his way of depicting enemies feels very fanfiction and generic somehow. And while I find his skill at drawing Toriyama characters quite compelling, it is still a long shot from the original work (I barely can remember manga panels from Toyotaro and all of the ones I find memorable seem to be quasi traced from Toriyama's work). And as minimum as it is the supervision from Toriyama, I still find him way more on point with his corrections than Toyo, like the ones Tori did with Toyble first Zamasu design (after all, that is what Tori excells at: character design).

Toyble manages to do very good fights from time to time though, like Zamasu vs Goku last battle or Vegito vs Zamasu...but those encounters are supposed to be the climax of their arc so those battles being at least good was expected. I don't think he should be fired tho; I think what he needs is way better direction besides Toriyama; I believe that Toyotaro lacks his own Torishima-like editor since Toriyama is too soft and goes along with most of the things Toyo goes for, besides pivotal plot points.

But Toriyama also is not thaaat good and unfortunately, since his way of writing is basically creating everything at the moment instead of carefuly planning the plot, his storytelling skills are also diminished due to the fact that he is not drawing the manga like before; I guess that when he drew it he focused a lot more on the development of his story due to investing way more time and direct effort in his work. Toriyama says him not having to draw anymore helps him to invest more time on creating a story, but I believe he's just in a confort zone and that prevents his greatest storytelling skills to show up; we'll see if he really means that "I want to make it look as if everything was connected from The beginning so that I can look cool" when the Broly movie finally shows up in theaters.

If Toyo doesn't stop being generic (Black in the manga is Zaiko and personalitiy Wise both are generic AF) and improves his story telling then I'm not happy with him being Tori succesor.

I also think that the best Toyo has are his drawing skills, but his composition sense and creativity are quite lame. Who is The guy that drew the doujinshi where Goku changes places with Vegeta? If I had to pick anyone to draw the manga after TOP it would definitively be him. I just find his composition sense way more developed and eye pleasing, not to mention his fighting panels are very superior to Toyble ones IMO.

Sorry about the bad english.
Your english is quite fine!

I agree with everything you've said. I find that Toyo writing is very lackluster. Even when he tries to implement unique ideas, his lack of writing fundamentals show as he tends to break sooooo many rules, even ones he creates. It's very frustrating. Toyo really just needs someone to help him in his writing. Like if he can get that part down, I think a lot of the fanbase would be more welcome to his vision.

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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by Ssjcell » Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:53 pm

I like that he had Gohan be able to beat kefla that was legit

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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by ricky84 » Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:57 pm

Toyotaro is an okay artist but a horrible writer. Especially when it comes to things like character writing and plotting. There are plently of fanfic writers and artist that are much better than he is.
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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:08 pm

I think the people that need to go are fans who overreact and rant about untranslated raw leaks of a manga chapter. This seems to be a huge issue in the db fandom and I feel like DB Youtubers are to blame for this when they give reviews on manga chapters before any official translations. Personally I wish Shueisha had gotten these channels shut down, it would have helped discussions in this fandom but unfortunately it didn't happen.

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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by sintzu » Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:10 pm

ricky84 wrote:Toyotaro is a horrible writer. Especially when it comes to things like character writing and plotting. There are plently of fanfic writers and artist that are much better than he is.
This also applies to Toei's writers and an argument can be made that Toriyama currently falls under this as well.
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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:26 pm

sintzu wrote:
ricky84 wrote:Toyotaro is a horrible writer. Especially when it comes to things like character writing and plotting. There are plently of fanfic writers and artist that are much better than he is.
This also applies to Toei's writers and an argument can be made that Toriyama currently falls under this as well.
Toei, Toyotaro and Toriyama are all guilty of bad writing with some of modern Dragon Ball's stories.

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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by zarmack » Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:19 am

SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:
Marlowe89 wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:*snip*
There's a lot of truth to that, but I think a bigger part of the problem was the decision to have two different versions of the same story in the first place. Tribalism tends to be a natural occurrence in larger fanbases, and it's exacerbated in situations like this on both sides. That's not to claim it applies to everyone - some people love or hate both formats of Super, and others at least might see the merits of both - but it leads to a lot of individuals taking every opportunity they can to shit on the version they don't like while doing the polar opposite for the version they prefer. There's a fine line between trying to assess these stories fairly and with an open mind, and displaying overwhelming bias to the point that you're criticizing one for the same thing you'd give the other an easy pass for all while rationalizing its presence.

If I'm coming across as preachy here, that's not my intention: I think a perfect world would have Toyotaro and Toei working together to play off of each other's strengths, but that's also coming from someone who wants to enjoy DBS as something more than a simple cash-in multimedia project.
I just don't see the tribalism in the Super fandom to be very legitimate though, most of it comes from people who hate the bad writing in the anime, often hold the manga in higher regard as the 'alternate' version of events or even going as far as expecting it to "fix" nitpicks off the anime people have. Therefore they will stand by the manga for the majority of concepts they feel it handles better. Where as the Anime fans tend to be the very vocal casual side and newbies to the DB franchise and are mostly defending the anime off of the immense hype they put on it just because its new and cinematic. Most people I've seen that hate the manga, only do so because they have memes going for the hype of the anime they have and they don't like that the manga doesn't reflect it. Or there are people who for whatever reason just assume the anime is what the "true" events are because it came out first.

Your point on people not assessing the series' fairly is correct. Because people don't judge the manga within its own continuity or at least what it is connected to. The DB manga. Not the anime. People who extensively bash the manga, tend to do so in favor of the anime off so much as just a scene preference as opposed to analyzing the concepts and quality of their representation. For example, people have set the bar high for how they want to see UI in the manga, based on Toei exaggerating it into a power up, but if Toyotaro doesn't do what they expect it to be based on Toei's writing, he will automatically be dumped on for not giving the same cinematic experiences, even if his direction wasn't going the same way to begin with.

Then there just is the inevitable where a series like DB that is mostly made up of anime casuals, you're going to have a lot of surface-thinking where momentary stimulation and memes become how promotion is decided among the majority. Not actual assessment; but people deemed as "hating" or "too negative" when their hype is at stake. Thats pretty much how I've seen it from people who defend the anime collectively.
Biggest strawman ever.

Most people who hate the manga do so because they see it as an objectively horrible work of fiction. Most of the criticism of the manga doesn't come from comparisons with the anime version, they judge it on its own merits like any other work of fiction (such as Toyotaro's inability to write ANY character beyond one dimension, his inability to write credible & imposing antagonists, his inability to create tension at all, his tracing and endless "homages", his inability to effectively utilize the supporting cast, his powerscaling, his poor understanding of anatomy, his tendency to over-explain things in ways that weren't needed, his tendency to make characters forget things they already learned/experienced in DB(Z) just for some forced attempts at character development, etc). And besides, most of the arguments people use to say the manga is better boils down to fallacious reasoning, hypocritical complains about the anime, and using low standards to deflect criticism of it like "DB is not an ensemble" or "DB always had bad writing" that they would never use with another series.

And your post comes across as pseudo-intellectual snobbery against people who prefer the anime, assuming anyone who prefers it over the manga must be some tasteless "anime casual" (as if anyone needs to watch 50+ other anime to tell if a series is good or not :roll: .). Otaku snobs use that same fallacy to dismiss anyone who has any DB series as one of their favorites.

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