Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by VegettoEX » Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:38 am

Both sides of this "______ fans only ______ because ______" need to go. It's total nonsense. Attempting to describe large swaths of fans in sweeping generalizations is ridiculous and in no way lives up to the spirit of our community guidelines.

Have conversations with the actual living, breathing human beings you're interacting with here and respond to actual points of critique.

Several of you already have multiple account strikes and are not posting (or reporting posts) in good faith. It would be a shame if you were not longer allowed to visit this website.
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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by TobyS » Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:37 am

There's nothing wrong with not liking the manga . they are wrong IMO but it's a free country.

I can't understand the pathological desire to post about it months after the point you conclude it has no value.

I can only conclude that if they spend the time bashing the manga instead of shutting the fuck up and watching the anime they can only be motivated by some sick nihilistic desire to try and lessen other peoples enjoyment of it as a goal within itself.

It's the same old entitled whining every month.

They'd have a bit more of a leg to stand on if the manga was the only continuation and they felt it irreparably hurt DB as a franchise . but even then they aren't bitching to anyone in a position of power to do something about it.

I accept responsibility that I could just stop posting here to avoid it. But:
1. “Why should I leave, they're the ones who suck”
2. After enjoying the manga every month and knowing no one IRL who likes DB I have the urge to discuss the series with other fans, in a neutral or positive manner. I mostly enjoy every chapter and can never predict what trumped up charges people will level against it, so every month I come back like a battered husband thinking “this time it will be different” and it never is.

I think mods nuked someone's attempt at a positivity thread, I guess they prefer constantly striking the accounts of the whiners...
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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by VegettoEX » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:18 pm

TobyS wrote:There's nothing wrong with not liking the manga . they are wrong IMO but it's a free country.

I can't understand the pathological desire to post about it months after the point you conclude it has no value.

I can only conclude that if they spend the time bashing the manga instead of shutting the fuck up and watching the anime they can only be motivated by some sick nihilistic desire to try and lessen other peoples enjoyment of it as a goal within itself.

It's the same old entitled whining every month.

They'd have a bit more of a leg to stand on if the manga was the only continuation and they felt it irreparably hurt DB as a franchise . but even then they aren't bitching to anyone in a position of power to do something about it.

I accept responsibility that I could just stop posting here to avoid it. But:
1. “Why should I leave, they're the ones who suck”
2. After enjoying the manga every month and knowing no one IRL who likes DB I have the urge to discuss the series with other fans, in a neutral or positive manner. I mostly enjoy every chapter and can never predict what trumped up charges people will level against it, so every month I come back like a battered husband thinking “this time it will be different” and it never is.
This is an inappropriate contribution on all levels.
TobyS wrote:I think mods nuked someone's attempt at a positivity thread, I guess they prefer constantly striking the accounts of the whiners...
I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, but there's no need for a positivity-specific thread; simply have a conversation, and all opinions will be welcome, entertained, and engaged with.
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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by Acetona » Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:22 pm

I agree with you, but for the wrong reasons.

The writing is subpar at best, yes. But it's a little bit better than the anime's. The worst parts from the manga are present in both, so I don't blame Toyotaro, but Toriyama himself. He completely lost his touch.

And for the art itself, I can't stand it. The characters look ugly, the anatomy isn't very DB-esque and I hate the panel outline so much. I don't know if they're terrible because of him or his V-Jump editors (as some other V-Jump manga suffer from this terrible layout, like Digimon Xros Wars), but it's really painful to read.
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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by Son-Kakaroto » Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:44 pm

Acetona wrote:I agree with you, but for the wrong reasons.

The writing is subpar at best, yes. But it's a little bit better than the anime's. The worst parts from the manga are present in both, so I don't blame Toyotaro, but Toriyama himself. He completely lost his touch.

And for the art itself, I can't stand it. The characters look ugly, the anatomy isn't very DB-esque and I hate the panel outline so much. I don't know if they're terrible because of him or his V-Jump editors (as some other V-Jump manga suffer from this terrible layout, like Digimon Xros Wars), but it's really painful to read.
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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by Miracles » Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:55 am

Toyotaro tries to keeps the continuity of Toriyama's original DB. The way he recently connected Ultra Instinct with similar teachings from DB was good writing.

He is going into the new year doing the next arc for the DB Super manga. I highly doubt he is going anywhere.

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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by Acetona » Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:34 pm

Son-Kakaroto wrote:snip
Honestly, God Vegeta looks god awful (no pun intended)
And you kinda grasped what I think about Toyo's anatomy. It's too much realistic for something like Dragon Ball, while their faces are completely cartoonish
And Evil Boo isn't a fair example, his body is distorted but that's because Toriyama didn't try to be anatomical accurate while designing him. Hell, his muscles aren't even similar to other characters'.
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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by Son-Kakaroto » Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:49 pm

Acetona wrote:
Son-Kakaroto wrote:snip
Honestly, God Vegeta looks god awful (no pun intended)
And you kinda grasped what I think about Toyo's anatomy. It's too much realistic for something like Dragon Ball, while their faces are completely cartoonish
And Evil Boo isn't a fair example, his body is distorted but that's because Toriyama didn't try to be anatomical accurate while designing him. Hell, his muscles aren't even similar to other characters'.
I dissagree, but okay.

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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:59 pm

Acetona wrote:
Son-Kakaroto wrote:snip
Honestly, God Vegeta looks god awful (no pun intended)
And you kinda grasped what I think about Toyo's anatomy. It's too much realistic for something like Dragon Ball, while their faces are completely cartoonish
And Evil Boo isn't a fair example, his body is distorted but that's because Toriyama didn't try to be anatomical accurate while designing him. Hell, his muscles aren't even similar to other characters'.
I disagree with this. Toyotaro's art is a lot cleaner than Toriyama's style in the Buu arc that was much more ridged clearly than his work on other things. His own anatomy was not as polished there as it is in his other works. Whether it as intended style or quality decline is debatable, but not everything Toriyama does should held in such a bias, simply to compare someone else doing something differently. If anything Toyotaro's art is a lot closer to the anime's higher quality character designs than it compares to the manga. Just look at Toriyama's SS3 debut panel compared to the same scene used in the anime. Toriyama's art has been much better than that, to just assume the anatomy differences were intentional.

I'm also not seeing the issue with SSG Vegeta. There is nothing that much to say besides him being a skinnier model alike what was done for Goku's SSG in the movie. What is the problem? If it looks odd to you then most likely its the form itself not looking good on Vegeta's usual range of proportions. Not Toyotaro.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.

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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:06 pm

zarmack wrote:Then there just is the inevitable where a series like DB that is mostly made up of anime casuals, you're going to have a lot of surface-thinking where momentary stimulation and memes become how promotion is decided among the majority. Not actual assessment; but people deemed as "hating" or "too negative" when their hype is at stake. Thats pretty much how I've seen it from people who defend the anime collectively.
I was mostly referring to my frustration with the reaction/recap channels on youtube, rather than actual criticism off legitimate forums. Its not a strawman, just a generalization. That was my mistake, making a cross platform rant. Then again the title of this thread, triggered that frustration. People whom I assumed came off youtube to say "Toyotaro should be fired".
zarmack wrote:Most people who hate the manga do so because they see it as an objectively horrible work of fiction.
I disagree. Do people only think that because its a manga written by a fan they equate to a doujinshi? What makes Toyotaro's work inherently fanfiction over the anime? If Toriyama has nothing to do with the anime at all and its being written independently by staff writers off other shows that vaguely know Dragonball themselves? I mean none of the magical girl stuff was in the manga, so I take it that it was invented by Toei for Ribrianne just to reference Pretty Cure. The SSB Kaioken and the other "throwbacks" were also done to appeal to the fanbases as well, which usually is how people come to saying something is fanfiction.
zarmack wrote:Most of the criticism of the manga doesn't come from comparisons with the anime version.
Then how to people determine what they get their idea of tension or suspense from?
zarmack wrote:They judge it on its own merits like any other work of fiction (such as Toyotaro's inability to write ANY character beyond one dimension, his inability to write credible & imposing antagonists, his inability to create tension at all, his tracing and endless "homages", his inability to effectively utilize the supporting cast, his powerscaling, his poor understanding of anatomy, his tendency to over-explain things in ways that weren't needed, his tendency to make characters forget things they already learned/experienced in DB(Z) just for some forced attempts at character development, etc).
Literally all of that are issues are equally in the anime though, but people make claims that the manga's quality is restricted by these issues just to to discredit Toyotaro entirely for them.

The anime's own repetition, poor character usage, characters being one dimensional, like Goku or antagonists( being primarily all talk-no-action like Jiren and Zamasu), the "homages" all throughout the TOP used as actual plot-points, (Vegeta's Final Explosion), the anime's own inability to properly balance the supporting cast usage (be it ignoring them or shoving them in unrealistic situations messing up the scaling or claiming some one was training in secret to justify it), the equally and consistently bad character art (Like Goku and Berserker Kale's character models tend to be), the anime's issue of not explaining anything necessary but then giving too much commentary about nothing, and the anime's own issues of characters forgetting things or being treated like humans. (No. 18 breaking a sword on her arm, one strong enough to cut Freeza in half, is injured by a sprained angle now?) and its own forced attempts at character development? (the Future Trunks & Mai romance out of no where?)

My problem is asserting that these issues only exist in the manga thus making it lower quality to the anime for them, while the anime is excused for it in hindsight to these claims against Toyotaro. I'm not denying the issues exist.
zarmack wrote:And besides, most of the arguments people use to say the manga is better boils down to fallacious reasoning, hypocritical complaints about the anime, and using low standards to deflect criticism of it like "DB is not an ensemble" or "DB always had bad writing" that they would never use with another series.
Thats really no different to how people defend the anime. Hypocritical complaints. People use them to defend their 'side' selectively.
zarmack wrote:And your post comes across as pseudo-intellectual snobbery against people who prefer the anime, assuming anyone who prefers it over the manga must be some tasteless "anime casual" (as if anyone needs to watch 50+ other anime to tell if a series is good or not :roll: .). Otaku snobs use that same fallacy to dismiss anyone who has any DB series as one of their favorites.
It just slipped into a rant about reaction channels. I base my standards off of what logic in the writing makes more sense for a situation portrayed, so I guess that would make me feel snobby if people do not share my context of reflection. It annoys me when people claim one platform had better "moments" thus cherry-picking a basis, then trying to justify the rest of it against what its compared to. Primarily the UI debacle between portrayals. I'm in the camp of "it shouldn't have been treated like power up" vs. others who say "the anime looked cooler, the manga was boring". People can have that opinion but its not actual criticism. They're impressions. Not concepts.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.

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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by Acetona » Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:06 pm

SingleFringe&Sparks wrote: I disagree with this. Toyotaro's art is a lot cleaner than Toriyama's style in the Buu arc that was much more ridged clearly than his work on other things. His own anatomy was not as polished there as it is in his other works. Whether it as intended style or quality decline is debatable, but not everything Toriyama does should held in such a bias, simply to compare someone else doing something differently. If anything Toyotaro's art is a lot closer to the anime's higher quality character designs than it compares to the manga. Just look at Toriyama's SS3 debut panel compared to the same scene used in the anime. Toriyama's art has been much better than that, to just assume the anatomy differences were intentional.

I'm also not seeing the issue with SSG Vegeta. There is nothing that much to say besides him being a skinnier model alike what was done for Goku's SSG in the movie. What is the problem? If it looks odd to you then most likely its the form itself not looking good on Vegeta's usual range of proportions. Not Toyotaro.
I'm not biased at Toriyama's artwork. His peak was on Freeza arc. But he was still drawing awesomely, just look at Dragon Quest III SFC remake artworks. Nowadays his style is underwhelming and Toyotaro is definitely better though.

And it is Toyotaro, really. His arms are so skinny and yet they have huge muscles. It feels like his arms's bones are thin as hell. Maybe not, but that's what I see. God Goku in the movie looked way better than this.
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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by Cetra » Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:45 pm

Acetona wrote: I'm not biased at Toriyama's artwork. His peak was on Freeza arc. But he was still drawing awesomely, just look at Dragon Quest III SFC remake artworks. Nowadays his style is underwhelming and Toyotaro is definitely better though.
I hope you know they studio has in-house artists that draw with Toriyama-san's style. Not everything Dragon Quest is directly drawn by him.
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Re: Toyotaro needs to be let go/fired

Post by Acetona » Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:37 pm

Cetra wrote:
Acetona wrote: I'm not biased at Toriyama's artwork. His peak was on Freeza arc. But he was still drawing awesomely, just look at Dragon Quest III SFC remake artworks. Nowadays his style is underwhelming and Toyotaro is definitely better though.
I hope you know they studio has in-house artists that draw with Toriyama-san's style. Not everything Dragon Quest is directly drawn by him.
That's even more reason to not choose Toyotaro to draw the manga though.
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