Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

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Re: Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by ricky84 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:38 pm

There are several ways to add more tension:

1) Kill off Beerus (temporary). This would get rid of Whis as well since Angels get "deactivated" (whatever that means) when their GoD dies.

2) Introduce evil Angels. There use to be 18 universes and 6 got erased. When Zeno erases a universe he seems to spare the Angels as shown in the ToP. This could mean those missing 6 Angels are still alive.

3) Have the GoDs and Angels turn on the Z-crew for whatever reason.

4. Introduce another Infintie Zamasu/Anti-Monitor type character than even Zeno can't erase.
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Re: Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by ricky84 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:41 pm

shadowmaria wrote:Not at all. Baby, Super #17, and the Shadow Dragon's are all formidable foes
Most of the Shadow Dragons were fodder to SSJ4 Goku. Hell, 2 of them were even killed by base Goku without a Spirit Bomb and Rage Shenron was killed by rain lol.

Only Nova, Syn and Omega were real threats.
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Re: Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by Saturnine » Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:07 am

I still have a hard time justifying the power of the strongest of the shadow dragons. But as for UI, even it didn't instantly dominate Jiren, so it is by no means an insta-win button.

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Re: Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by Lionel » Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:41 am

In respect to general might, there's still unexplored avenues for future material. But in fights where the opposing enemies are of comparable power, Ultra Instinct's name-brand recognition as an enlightened state of autonomous bodily movement does make one initially ponder how the other party is expected to combat such a state in a contest of choreographic manoeuvring. I then realise that Jiren achieved this very result despite not exhibiting any noteworthy abilities outside of his sheer force of power. Maybe it's difficult to translate meticulous stylistic variances in combat form here with a series like Dragon Ball.

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Re: Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by BanterTheGreat » Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:47 am

As long as goku isn't fighting while in Ultra Instinct, I wont feel tension because he isn't going all out. The problem with UI is that as long as it is not used, I just feel like he can pop into it and save the day, like what happened at the tournament.

Its the same feeling as like half of the tournament, where goku is using lesser forms and gets pushed back, but we all know he can just overpower everyone the moment he transforms further, or the Goku vs Hit fight in the manga, where goku was stomping Hit while SSG, so there was no tension aswell.

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Re: Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by GodVegetto91 » Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:27 pm

ricky84 wrote:There are several ways to add more tension:

1) Kill off Beerus (temporary). This would get rid of Whis as well since Angels get "deactivated" (whatever that means) when their GoD dies.

2) Introduce evil Angels. There use to be 18 universes and 6 got erased. When Zeno erases a universe he seems to spare the Angels as shown in the ToP. This could mean those missing 6 Angels are still alive.

3) Have the GoDs and Angels turn on the Z-crew for whatever reason.

4. Introduce another Infintie Zamasu/Anti-Monitor type character than even Zeno can't erase.
Okay and then what? The heroes lose. Story over. Is that what you want?
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Re: Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by Zen Yabuki » Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:16 pm

KingKaash wrote:I think fights between UI users would be interesting. Like if Hit got UI I think he'd be stronger than Jiren or Goku. How do you beat a guy who can hit you whenever and wherever with Time Skip but you can't hit him back because of UI
Eh maybe. Even without UI, Goku beats Hit and you could make a case for Jiren. Giving him UI would more so level the playing field for him now against two guys who have complete knowledge on his skill set and ways of fighting it.

Lionel wrote:In respect to general might, there's still unexplored avenues for future material. But in fights where the opposing enemies are of comparable power, Ultra Instinct's name-brand recognition as an enlightened state of autonomous bodily movement does make one initially ponder how the other party is expected to combat such a state in a contest of choreographic manoeuvring. I then realise that Jiren achieved this very result despite not exhibiting any noteworthy abilities outside of his sheer force of power. Maybe it's difficult to translate meticulous stylistic variances in combat form here with a series like Dragon Ball.
It’s that and the fact that it wasn’t just highlighting that Jiren was really strong, but very clearly a damn good fighter.

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Re: Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by KingKaash » Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:48 pm

Zen Yabuki wrote:
KingKaash wrote:I think fights between UI users would be interesting. Like if Hit got UI I think he'd be stronger than Jiren or Goku. How do you beat a guy who can hit you whenever and wherever with Time Skip but you can't hit him back because of UI
Eh maybe. Even without UI, Goku beats Hit and you could make a case for Jiren. Giving him UI would more so level the playing field for him now against two guys who have complete knowledge on his skill set and ways of fighting it.

Lionel wrote:In respect to general might, there's still unexplored avenues for future material. But in fights where the opposing enemies are of comparable power, Ultra Instinct's name-brand recognition as an enlightened state of autonomous bodily movement does make one initially ponder how the other party is expected to combat such a state in a contest of choreographic manoeuvring. I then realise that Jiren achieved this very result despite not exhibiting any noteworthy abilities outside of his sheer force of power. Maybe it's difficult to translate meticulous stylistic variances in combat form here with a series like Dragon Ball.
It’s that and the fact that it wasn’t just highlighting that Jiren was really strong, but very clearly a damn good fighter.
When did Goku outright beat Hit? Just trying to recall
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Re: Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:18 am

It didn't even remove the tension from the antagonist it debuted to fight (poor writing did that). Jiren hammered MUI Goku into the ground. Goku was only able to temporarily get the upper hand on Jiren by overclocking himself, after which he wrecked his body and exhausted his energy without actually beating Jiren, and got beaten up some more.
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Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:34 am

What bugs me more about it is that it essentially removes any notion of skill or strategy in fighting. Goku just sets his body on autopilot and doesn't even do any conscious fighting. That's extremely boring, and IC Goku should hate it.
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Re: Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by Simere » Thu Sep 06, 2018 1:07 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:What bugs me more about it is that it essentially removes any notion of skill or strategy in fighting. Goku just sets his body on autopilot and doesn't even do any conscious fighting. That's extremely boring, and IC Goku should hate it.
It's unconscious action, but it's still his action. UI is a state of being; the whole idea of letting yourself go to find yourself again. He probably felt the enjoyment of fighting more clearly than he ever has.

I agree with you, though. That's always been my problem with UI since we first heard about it, and why I wanted it to hurry up and be mastered. The sooner it's mastered, the sooner it can be made fallible.

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Re: Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by Mister_Popo » Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:43 am

Simere wrote:
Polyphase Avatron wrote:What bugs me more about it is that it essentially removes any notion of skill or strategy in fighting. Goku just sets his body on autopilot and doesn't even do any conscious fighting. That's extremely boring, and IC Goku should hate it.
It's unconscious action, but it's still his action. UI is a state of being; the whole idea of letting yourself go to find yourself again. He probably felt the enjoyment of fighting more clearly than he ever has.

I agree with you, though. That's always been my problem with UI since we first heard about it, and why I wanted it to hurry up and be mastered. The sooner it's mastered, the sooner it can be made fallible.

I agree, Goku should master it like the other forms. We just attain a higher power scale. This thing of 'being beaten in Blue Kaioken after a heroic but desperate fight, which leaves fusion / UI as the only options' made sense during TOP, but it removes tension if opponents grow stronger than Jiren. Goku should be able to use it pretty straightforwarded if a short test in the other forms doesn't help.

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Re: Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by Doctor. » Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:55 am

How can you even come to such a conclusion when the Jiren fight already rendered Ultra Instinct as useless, as nothing more than yet another power boost. How can it be an invincible technique when he was getting smacked around by Jiren time and time again? I have no doubt UI will be used as a plot device in the next few arcs as a last hope to defeat the villain, in fact that was predictable ever since Goku revealed he lost it, but that's nothing more than bad writing if it does happen.

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Re: Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by supersaiyanZero » Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:41 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:Who cares about tension? Ultra Instinct is cool and strong, and quite frankly, that’s the only thing that matters to me. Dragon Ball has never been about tension, it has always been about the evolution of Goku and Vegeta as Saiyans. And this is exactly where Ultra Instinct comes in. This series is all about Goku and Vegeta bettering themselves. It’s not concerned with creating unneccesary tension or drama.
What series where you watching? It's always been about defeating an enemy several times stronger than you, even when it seems like all hope is lost.

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Re: Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by kudo6000 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:51 pm

Doctor. wrote:in fact that was predictable ever since Goku revealed he lost it, but that's nothing more than bad writing if it does happen.
Which wouldn't be necessarily new to this series, mind you.

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Re: Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by Doctor. » Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:10 pm

kudo6000 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:in fact that was predictable ever since Goku revealed he lost it, but that's nothing more than bad writing if it does happen.
Which wouldn't be necessarily new to this series, mind you.
Unless you mean Super specifically, the closest example we had were Gohan's arbitrary rage boosts, but even they reached a point where they stopped and he had a "stable" power that wouldn't fluctuate based on emotion (as in, the Boo arc and beyond).

If UI is merely used as a convenient and arbitrary asspull power-up to defeat the villain from here on (or a method to gain the upper hand), then that would be pretty bad, but I guess it wouldn't really be much worse than the other Fairy Tail-like power boosts Super has already made us witness countless times before.

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Re: Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by PFM18 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:46 pm

Doctor. wrote:How can you even come to such a conclusion when the Jiren fight already rendered Ultra Instinct as useless, as nothing more than yet another power boost. How can it be an invincible technique when he was getting smacked around by Jiren time and time again? I have no doubt UI will be used as a plot device in the next few arcs as a last hope to defeat the villain, in fact that was predictable ever since Goku revealed he lost it, but that's nothing more than bad writing if it does happen.
If it was an invincible technique then it would remove all tension. It would nullify any uncertainty whatsoever as to who was going to win the fight if we know that it is impossible to hit Goku when he is using this technique. The fact that he is able to be "smacked around" by Jiren creates tension because it creates a sense of doubt in terms of Goku's chances of being the victor.

How is it being used as a last hope bad writing? Wouldn't it be bad writing if it functioned just as any other transformation ever where it is accessible at any time with little to any repercussions? If it is hard to tap back into and is rendered a last hope, it gives UI a unique feeling to it.

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Re: Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by Doctor. » Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:06 am

PFM18 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:How can you even come to such a conclusion when the Jiren fight already rendered Ultra Instinct as useless, as nothing more than yet another power boost. How can it be an invincible technique when he was getting smacked around by Jiren time and time again? I have no doubt UI will be used as a plot device in the next few arcs as a last hope to defeat the villain, in fact that was predictable ever since Goku revealed he lost it, but that's nothing more than bad writing if it does happen.
If it was an invincible technique then it would remove all tension. It would nullify any uncertainty whatsoever as to who was going to win the fight if we know that it is impossible to hit Goku when he is using this technique. The fact that he is able to be "smacked around" by Jiren creates tension because it creates a sense of doubt in terms of Goku's chances of being the victor.

How is it being used as a last hope bad writing? Wouldn't it be bad writing if it functioned just as any other transformation ever where it is accessible at any time with little to any repercussions? If it is hard to tap back into and is rendered a last hope, it gives UI a unique feeling to it.
I didn't say that UI would remove tension. I said UI would allow for tension because Goku already got the smackdown the first time he used it, in contrast with OP's implication that UI is some unbeatable technique that removes tension. The problem with this, though, is that Goku being hit blatantly disregards what UI is meant to be conceptually. Of course, I'm not saying UI should never be hit, but considering it's much more than your random power boost, then creative ways to have enemies hit Goku are necessary. Or at the very least, a handwaved explanation; the Jiren fight doesn't even offer you that, it leaves fans to headcanon away the bullshit as I'm sure you'll attempt in your response to this.

Now just because I agree UI can make fights feel tense doesn't mean I think they will. The fact Goku lost UI and it isn't part of his regular arsenal anymore means one of two things: a) he'll pull it out of his ass in a pinch to defeat the villain, or b) he'll pull it out of his ass to severely weaken the villain before it runs out, serving a similar plot purpose as the Genkidama or Fusion before, only worse because the way to attain UI in those desperate circumstances are unquantifiable. That's why it's bad writing, because it's arbitrary and extremly convenient when he taps into it again, because it's a transformation with an uncertain and unquantifiable method of achieving it, bound by the whims of plot convenience, and because it will render every fight Goku will ever have in SSB tensionless (well, even more than they already are, considering Beerus and Whis, and the EoZ, exist), since we know he has a trump card just waiting for him to turn the tables on his opponent when he uses it.

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Re: Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by Bergamo » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:32 am

Doctor. wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:How can you even come to such a conclusion when the Jiren fight already rendered Ultra Instinct as useless, as nothing more than yet another power boost. How can it be an invincible technique when he was getting smacked around by Jiren time and time again? I have no doubt UI will be used as a plot device in the next few arcs as a last hope to defeat the villain, in fact that was predictable ever since Goku revealed he lost it, but that's nothing more than bad writing if it does happen.
If it was an invincible technique then it would remove all tension. It would nullify any uncertainty whatsoever as to who was going to win the fight if we know that it is impossible to hit Goku when he is using this technique. The fact that he is able to be "smacked around" by Jiren creates tension because it creates a sense of doubt in terms of Goku's chances of being the victor.

How is it being used as a last hope bad writing? Wouldn't it be bad writing if it functioned just as any other transformation ever where it is accessible at any time with little to any repercussions? If it is hard to tap back into and is rendered a last hope, it gives UI a unique feeling to it.
I didn't say that UI would remove tension. I said UI would allow for tension because Goku already got the smackdown the first time he used it, in contrast with OP's implication that UI is some unbeatable technique that removes tension. The problem with this, though, is that Goku being hit blatantly disregards what UI is meant to be conceptually. Of course, I'm not saying UI should never be hit, but considering it's much more than your random power boost, then creative ways to have enemies hit Goku are necessary. Or at the very least, a handwaved explanation; the Jiren fight doesn't even offer you that, it leaves fans to headcanon away the bullshit as I'm sure you'll attempt in your response to this.

Now just because I agree UI can make fights feel tense doesn't mean I think they will. The fact Goku lost UI and it isn't part of his regular arsenal anymore means one of two things: a) he'll pull it out of his ass in a pinch to defeat the villain, or b) he'll pull it out of his ass to severely weaken the villain before it runs out, serving a similar plot purpose as the Genkidama or Fusion before, only worse because the way to attain UI in those desperate circumstances are unquantifiable. That's why it's bad writing, because it's arbitrary and extremly convenient when he taps into it again, because it's a transformation with an uncertain and unquantifiable method of achieving it, bound by the whims of plot convenience, and because it will render every fight Goku will ever have in SSB tensionless (well, even more than they already are, considering Beerus and Whis, and the EoZ, exist), since we know he has a trump card just waiting for him to turn the tables on his opponent when he uses it.
I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm interrupting your discussion, but can you step down from your pedestal before you argue.

Why is it that when you argue you act as if you are being rational, but you feel you have the authority to predetermine that another user will, "headcanon away the bullshit." This is not how you have a discussion. Do you want to have a civil debate or are you just trying to trigger people, because many of your comments come off as mean-spirited.

I also generally disagree with the notion that inference is automatically headcanon.
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