Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

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TheMikado
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Re: Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by TheMikado » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:43 am

VegettoEX wrote:
CTAkuma wrote:All tension was gone with the introduction of Beerus and Whis as allies, there are no stakes when these characters are still part of Gokuu's friends as Whis can revive people or turn back time and Beerus is one of the strongest fighters
This is demonstrably untrue based on not only what we've been told, but have seen firsthand: Beerus is petrified of the Omni-King, and Whis cannot necessarily be counted on to drag them out of the mud.
You're right, the introduction of the Omni-king has basically established that only thing to really fear is the Omni-King himself and all other situations can be resolved instantly by a snap of Omni-king's fingers and whatever excuse the writers want to make for the Omni-king doing whatever he does. The fact that his in-universe character doesn't follow reason means his reasons and plot don't need to be logical, just convenient.

Essentially the ultimate literary cop out.

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Re: Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by TheMikado » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:45 am

supersaiyanZero wrote:
GodVegetto91 wrote:Who cares about tension? Ultra Instinct is cool and strong, and quite frankly, that’s the only thing that matters to me. Dragon Ball has never been about tension, it has always been about the evolution of Goku and Vegeta as Saiyans. And this is exactly where Ultra Instinct comes in. This series is all about Goku and Vegeta bettering themselves. It’s not concerned with creating unneccesary tension or drama.
What series where you watching? It's always been about defeating an enemy several times stronger than you, even when it seems like all hope is lost.
Are we talking about the original Dragonball manga or the "Z" anime variant because the original series was about neither of these things.

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Re: Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by Doctor. » Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:12 pm

Bergamo wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
If it was an invincible technique then it would remove all tension. It would nullify any uncertainty whatsoever as to who was going to win the fight if we know that it is impossible to hit Goku when he is using this technique. The fact that he is able to be "smacked around" by Jiren creates tension because it creates a sense of doubt in terms of Goku's chances of being the victor.

How is it being used as a last hope bad writing? Wouldn't it be bad writing if it functioned just as any other transformation ever where it is accessible at any time with little to any repercussions? If it is hard to tap back into and is rendered a last hope, it gives UI a unique feeling to it.
I didn't say that UI would remove tension. I said UI would allow for tension because Goku already got the smackdown the first time he used it, in contrast with OP's implication that UI is some unbeatable technique that removes tension. The problem with this, though, is that Goku being hit blatantly disregards what UI is meant to be conceptually. Of course, I'm not saying UI should never be hit, but considering it's much more than your random power boost, then creative ways to have enemies hit Goku are necessary. Or at the very least, a handwaved explanation; the Jiren fight doesn't even offer you that, it leaves fans to headcanon away the bullshit as I'm sure you'll attempt in your response to this.

Now just because I agree UI can make fights feel tense doesn't mean I think they will. The fact Goku lost UI and it isn't part of his regular arsenal anymore means one of two things: a) he'll pull it out of his ass in a pinch to defeat the villain, or b) he'll pull it out of his ass to severely weaken the villain before it runs out, serving a similar plot purpose as the Genkidama or Fusion before, only worse because the way to attain UI in those desperate circumstances are unquantifiable. That's why it's bad writing, because it's arbitrary and extremly convenient when he taps into it again, because it's a transformation with an uncertain and unquantifiable method of achieving it, bound by the whims of plot convenience, and because it will render every fight Goku will ever have in SSB tensionless (well, even more than they already are, considering Beerus and Whis, and the EoZ, exist), since we know he has a trump card just waiting for him to turn the tables on his opponent when he uses it.
I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm interrupting your discussion, but can you step down from your pedestal before you argue.

Why is it that when you argue you act as if you are being rational, but you feel you have the authority to predetermine that another user will, "headcanon away the bullshit." This is not how you have a discussion. Do you want to have a civil debate or are you just trying to trigger people, because many of your comments come off as mean-spirited.

I also generally disagree with the notion that inference is automatically headcanon.
If anyone gets "triggered," then that's their own fault. I shouldn't be held responsible because some people misinterpret harsh language as a personal attack. I said he'd probably "headcanon away the bullshit" because I've debated him on Super in the past and, in my opinion, he uses his own headcanon to explain things that I consider bullshit. It's not a personal attack, and it's not mean-spirited; it's a call to attention so he reevaluates the way he phrases his arguments and the reasons he so vehemently defends something. You may say that I"m not being fair in predicting what he'll do next, but I don't think that pretending like I don't know how someone thinks for the sake of fairness and faux civility is a proper way to conduct a discussion either; we already know how the other person thinks, so let's just cut to the chase. Regardless, I don't really think I'm better than anyone, but if that's the impression you get, you're not forced to debate me if you find my posts that insufferable, and there's an ignore button too.

It usually is if it's being used to explain away something that contradicts explicit information. You don't infer the reasons Jiren was able to hit Goku, that's the kind of important shit the story has to explain to you so there's no doubt as to why information we were told before is being challenged.

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Re: Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by Bergamo » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:30 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Bergamo wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
I didn't say that UI would remove tension. I said UI would allow for tension because Goku already got the smackdown the first time he used it, in contrast with OP's implication that UI is some unbeatable technique that removes tension. The problem with this, though, is that Goku being hit blatantly disregards what UI is meant to be conceptually. Of course, I'm not saying UI should never be hit, but considering it's much more than your random power boost, then creative ways to have enemies hit Goku are necessary. Or at the very least, a handwaved explanation; the Jiren fight doesn't even offer you that, it leaves fans to headcanon away the bullshit as I'm sure you'll attempt in your response to this.

Now just because I agree UI can make fights feel tense doesn't mean I think they will. The fact Goku lost UI and it isn't part of his regular arsenal anymore means one of two things: a) he'll pull it out of his ass in a pinch to defeat the villain, or b) he'll pull it out of his ass to severely weaken the villain before it runs out, serving a similar plot purpose as the Genkidama or Fusion before, only worse because the way to attain UI in those desperate circumstances are unquantifiable. That's why it's bad writing, because it's arbitrary and extremly convenient when he taps into it again, because it's a transformation with an uncertain and unquantifiable method of achieving it, bound by the whims of plot convenience, and because it will render every fight Goku will ever have in SSB tensionless (well, even more than they already are, considering Beerus and Whis, and the EoZ, exist), since we know he has a trump card just waiting for him to turn the tables on his opponent when he uses it.
I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm interrupting your discussion, but can you step down from your pedestal before you argue.

Why is it that when you argue you act as if you are being rational, but you feel you have the authority to predetermine that another user will, "headcanon away the bullshit." This is not how you have a discussion. Do you want to have a civil debate or are you just trying to trigger people, because many of your comments come off as mean-spirited.

I also generally disagree with the notion that inference is automatically headcanon.
If anyone gets "triggered," then that's their own fault. I shouldn't be held responsible because some people misinterpret harsh language as a personal attack. I said he'd probably "headcanon away the bullshit" because I've debated him on Super in the past and, in my opinion, he uses his own headcanon to explain things that I consider bullshit. It's not a personal attack, and it's not mean-spirited; it's a call to attention so he reevaluates the way he phrases his arguments and the reasons he so vehemently defends something. You may say that I"m not being fair in predicting what he'll do next, but I don't think that pretending like I don't know how someone thinks for the sake of fairness and faux civility is a proper way to conduct a discussion either; we already know how the other person thinks, so let's just cut to the chase. Regardless, I don't really think I'm better than anyone, but if that's the impression you get, you're not forced to debate me if you find my posts that insufferable, and there's an ignore button too.

It usually is if it's being used to explain away something that contradicts explicit information. You don't infer the reasons Jiren was able to hit Goku, that's the kind of important shit the story has to explain to you so there's no doubt as to why information we were told before is being challenged.
I don't think you're attacking anyone, I think your general style of debate includes uncalled for rude quips. I don't hate debating you, I just think you could be more civil.

I also don't see why Jiren hitting Goku is an issue. Ultra Instinct never made it so that Goku could effortlessly dodge Jiren's attacks. The first time he uses UI, he trades blows with Jiren, but then he mastered UI and started dominating Jiren, although Jiren later closed the gap.
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Re: Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by EGonzo » Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:15 am

In a way Yes and No. Yes because whenever Goku is in trouble we'll keep thinking "shouldn't he trigger UI about now?", and No because as we saw against Jiren, even UI isn't enough against some opponents.

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Re: Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by Saturnine » Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:47 am

TheMikado wrote:
supersaiyanZero wrote:
GodVegetto91 wrote:Who cares about tension? Ultra Instinct is cool and strong, and quite frankly, that’s the only thing that matters to me. Dragon Ball has never been about tension, it has always been about the evolution of Goku and Vegeta as Saiyans. And this is exactly where Ultra Instinct comes in. This series is all about Goku and Vegeta bettering themselves. It’s not concerned with creating unneccesary tension or drama.
What series where you watching? It's always been about defeating an enemy several times stronger than you, even when it seems like all hope is lost.
Are we talking about the original Dragonball manga or the "Z" anime variant because the original series was about neither of these things.
Neither was Z, really. The only situation when an antagonist several times stronger was defeated that comes to my mind was Raditz.

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Re: Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by Doctor. » Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:24 am

Bergamo wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Bergamo wrote: I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm interrupting your discussion, but can you step down from your pedestal before you argue.

Why is it that when you argue you act as if you are being rational, but you feel you have the authority to predetermine that another user will, "headcanon away the bullshit." This is not how you have a discussion. Do you want to have a civil debate or are you just trying to trigger people, because many of your comments come off as mean-spirited.

I also generally disagree with the notion that inference is automatically headcanon.
If anyone gets "triggered," then that's their own fault. I shouldn't be held responsible because some people misinterpret harsh language as a personal attack. I said he'd probably "headcanon away the bullshit" because I've debated him on Super in the past and, in my opinion, he uses his own headcanon to explain things that I consider bullshit. It's not a personal attack, and it's not mean-spirited; it's a call to attention so he reevaluates the way he phrases his arguments and the reasons he so vehemently defends something. You may say that I"m not being fair in predicting what he'll do next, but I don't think that pretending like I don't know how someone thinks for the sake of fairness and faux civility is a proper way to conduct a discussion either; we already know how the other person thinks, so let's just cut to the chase. Regardless, I don't really think I'm better than anyone, but if that's the impression you get, you're not forced to debate me if you find my posts that insufferable, and there's an ignore button too.

It usually is if it's being used to explain away something that contradicts explicit information. You don't infer the reasons Jiren was able to hit Goku, that's the kind of important shit the story has to explain to you so there's no doubt as to why information we were told before is being challenged.
I don't think you're attacking anyone, I think your general style of debate includes uncalled for rude quips. I don't hate debating you, I just think you could be more civil.

I also don't see why Jiren hitting Goku is an issue. Ultra Instinct never made it so that Goku could effortlessly dodge Jiren's attacks. The first time he uses UI, he trades blows with Jiren, but then he mastered UI and started dominating Jiren, although Jiren later closed the gap.
It's an issue because the entire concept behind Ultra Instinct is that your body moves on your own and allows you to react to attacks you wouldn't normally react to. So, naturally, when Goku is unable to react to an attack in time (ie. He gets hit), then the audience is understandably left wondering in their head why the auto-dodge failed this time whereas it always worked before. People don't question this sort of stuff during normal fights because human error always comes into play there, but human error isn't a factor when it comes to Ultra Instinct; it's a Godly technique that runs on pure instinct, that's why even the manga clarified that Beerus' UI was imperfect when he finally got hit. Now you could infer that maybe Jiren moves so fast Goku's body can't react in time even with UI, or that Jiren isn't making any unnecessary movements and is keeping up with UI that way (I'd say you're wrong because they're fighting in the exact same way and nobody comments on Jiren's movements being different or similar to UI), but coming up with those explanations shouldn't be your job. The story should provide these explanations to you, especially when you consider we're talking about an arc where the peanut gallery can't seem to shut the fuck up about the most mundane and obvious shit. When you take that into the account and reflect on how no explanation was given to something that will understandably raise some eyebrows, then it's clear it's an oversight, a flaw, poor writing, and not something intentional with an explanation to be inferred from context.

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Re: Has the existence of Ultra Instinct removed any tension from any future antagonists?

Post by Bergamo » Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:26 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Bergamo wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
If anyone gets "triggered," then that's their own fault. I shouldn't be held responsible because some people misinterpret harsh language as a personal attack. I said he'd probably "headcanon away the bullshit" because I've debated him on Super in the past and, in my opinion, he uses his own headcanon to explain things that I consider bullshit. It's not a personal attack, and it's not mean-spirited; it's a call to attention so he reevaluates the way he phrases his arguments and the reasons he so vehemently defends something. You may say that I"m not being fair in predicting what he'll do next, but I don't think that pretending like I don't know how someone thinks for the sake of fairness and faux civility is a proper way to conduct a discussion either; we already know how the other person thinks, so let's just cut to the chase. Regardless, I don't really think I'm better than anyone, but if that's the impression you get, you're not forced to debate me if you find my posts that insufferable, and there's an ignore button too.

It usually is if it's being used to explain away something that contradicts explicit information. You don't infer the reasons Jiren was able to hit Goku, that's the kind of important shit the story has to explain to you so there's no doubt as to why information we were told before is being challenged.
I don't think you're attacking anyone, I think your general style of debate includes uncalled for rude quips. I don't hate debating you, I just think you could be more civil.

I also don't see why Jiren hitting Goku is an issue. Ultra Instinct never made it so that Goku could effortlessly dodge Jiren's attacks. The first time he uses UI, he trades blows with Jiren, but then he mastered UI and started dominating Jiren, although Jiren later closed the gap.
It's an issue because the entire concept behind Ultra Instinct is that your body moves on your own and allows you to react to attacks you wouldn't normally react to. So, naturally, when Goku is unable to react to an attack in time (ie. He gets hit), then the audience is understandably left wondering in their head why the auto-dodge failed this time whereas it always worked before. People don't question this sort of stuff during normal fights because human error always comes into play there, but human error isn't a factor when it comes to Ultra Instinct; it's a Godly technique that runs on pure instinct, that's why even the manga clarified that Beerus' UI was imperfect when he finally got hit. Now you could infer that maybe Jiren moves so fast Goku's body can't react in time even with UI, or that Jiren isn't making any unnecessary movements and is keeping up with UI that way (I'd say you're wrong because they're fighting in the exact same way and nobody comments on Jiren's movements being different or similar to UI), but coming up with those explanations shouldn't be your job. The story should provide these explanations to you, especially when you consider we're talking about an arc where the peanut gallery can't seem to shut the fuck up about the most mundane and obvious shit. When you take that into the account and reflect on how no explanation was given to something that will understandably raise some eyebrows, then it's clear it's an oversight, a flaw, poor writing, and not something intentional with an explanation to be inferred from context.
It was pretty obvious from Goku's first use of UI that it only put him on par with Jiren in terms of movement. UI was only said to make your movements better, not perfect. This is why even if someone like Piccolo had UI, there's no way he could beat Jiren. The weird part is how they gave Jiren an UI aura.
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