Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

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Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Bergamo » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:07 pm

The two most popular complaints I see are...
"Roshi shouldn't have Ultra Instinct."
Which I don't get because he doesn't have Ultra Instinct. He definitely has instinct, but it's nowhere near the level of the gods...
and "Roshi fought evenly with Jiren."
Which I don't get because he isn't even with Jiren. At the end of the short fight, Roshi is still as weak and Jiren is still as strong.

So can someone explain what's wrong?
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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by ssj3kakarot » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:20 pm

The fact that someone of Roshi's level, regardless that he is an experienced martial artist, can even for a second hang with someone like Jiren is absurd.

Keep in mind, that this Jiren is on a level that transends time.

So the premise that because Roshi is calm of mind that he is able to comprehend Jirens movements or even move faster than Jiren is absurd.

They literally are in the middle of introducing the most powerful character that Dragon ball has witnessed (Jiren) and they have Roshi step up to the plate. How is that even ok? Pro-tip: It isn't ok.
I did appreciate how they at least attempted to give SOME sort of explanation with No17's dialogue and the other parts. But just because there is some in-universe dialog doesn't justify the YEARS of logic the show has built up.

Why didn't Roshi show this level of resolve and ability during any arc in Dragonball Z? vs Raditz would have been a great time. Or are we to understand that Roshi has been training all this time and though power-level wise is weak, is able to accomplish something that even maxed Goku (TOP) has been unable to achieve?

Furthermore, why the hell did Jiren have to block? Even if Roshi is able to have some ability that is LIKE ultra-instinct, his physical ability to inflict harm on the likes of the Goliath known as Jiren, should be impossible. To write that into the manga is an insult to the fans ability to reason. It WAS shown that Jiren got to a point and decided to end the fight, but the fact that he had to get serious on ANY level vs someone like Roshi is wrong.


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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Bergamo » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:41 pm

ssj3kakarot wrote:The fact that someone of Roshi's level, regardless that he is an experienced martial artist, can even for a second hang with someone like Jiren is absurd.

Keep in mind, that this Jiren is on a level that transends time.

So the premise that because Roshi is calm of mind that he is able to comprehend Jirens movements or even move faster than Jiren is absurd.

They literally are in the middle of introducing the most powerful character that Dragon ball has witnessed (Jiren) and they have Roshi step up to the plate. How is that even ok? Pro-tip: It isn't ok.
I did appreciate how they at least attempted to give SOME sort of explanation with No17's dialogue and the other parts. But just because there is some in-universe dialog doesn't justify the YEARS of logic the show has built up.

Why didn't Roshi show this level of resolve and ability during any arc in Dragonball Z? vs Raditz would have been a great time. Or are we to understand that Roshi has been training all this time and though power-level wise is weak, is able to accomplish something that even maxed Goku (TOP) has been unable to achieve?

Furthermore, why the hell did Jiren have to block? Even if Roshi is able to have some ability that is LIKE ultra-instinct, his physical ability to inflict harm on the likes of the Goliath known as Jiren, should be impossible. To write that into the manga is an insult to the fans ability to reason. It WAS shown that Jiren got to a point and decided to end the fight, but the fact that he had to get serious on ANY level vs someone like Roshi is wrong.


AND end rant!
1. Manga Jiren is never stated to be stronger than time.

2. If Roshi did this against Raditz the outcome would have been the same. He would have dodged a few attacks and then he would have been beat because he's still much weaker.

3. Jiren didn't have to block Roshi's attack. Jiren tanked Goku's kamehameha without blocking but then he blocks some of Goku's regular punches. Does this mean that a regular punch is stronger than the kamehameha? No.
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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by TheMikado » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:45 pm

ssj3kakarot wrote:The fact that someone of Roshi's level, regardless that he is an experienced martial artist, can even for a second hang with someone like Jiren is absurd.

Keep in mind, that this Jiren is on a level that transends time.

So the premise that because Roshi is calm of mind that he is able to comprehend Jirens movements or even move faster than Jiren is absurd.

They literally are in the middle of introducing the most powerful character that Dragon ball has witnessed (Jiren) and they have Roshi step up to the plate. How is that even ok? Pro-tip: It isn't ok.
I did appreciate how they at least attempted to give SOME sort of explanation with No17's dialogue and the other parts. But just because there is some in-universe dialog doesn't justify the YEARS of logic the show has built up.

Why didn't Roshi show this level of resolve and ability during any arc in Dragonball Z? vs Raditz would have been a great time. Or are we to understand that Roshi has been training all this time and though power-level wise is weak, is able to accomplish something that even maxed Goku (TOP) has been unable to achieve?

Furthermore, why the hell did Jiren have to block? Even if Roshi is able to have some ability that is LIKE ultra-instinct, his physical ability to inflict harm on the likes of the Goliath known as Jiren, should be impossible. To write that into the manga is an insult to the fans ability to reason. It WAS shown that Jiren got to a point and decided to end the fight, but the fact that he had to get serious on ANY level vs someone like Roshi is wrong.


AND end rant!
1) Jiren only transcends time in the garbage anime.
2) we see that Roshi is unable to overpower stronger opponents regardless so no plothole there. In fact it would help to explain in universe why he seems to always comically avoid more powerful enemy attacks and lethal blows. This is actually very different than say bring the demon containment wave back which could have been used since Raditz and every enemy after not to mention them actually having the time to perfect it.
3) As for the technique it’s essentially what every single one of Gokus mentors have emphasized. It’s a martial arts technique in general. It’s not unique and it’s actually properly established as a technique in the manga that anyone can use and not something exclusive to the gods or granting magic powers. It took DB back to one of its fundamentals which is martial arts.

4) I’ve said this multiple times about the anime. Nothing in the dialogue of the anime actually stated that Goku was more powerful in raw strength in ultra instinct, it was just written that way because that’s how they do DBZ forms, the characters get stronger... it’s lazy and half assed. Roshi dodging attacks using a variant of ultra instinct and then getting knocked out in a single blow after doing zero damage makes perfect sense. It’s consistent with the mastery of martial arts rather than this stupid general “stronger” theme we got going.

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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by ssj3kakarot » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:06 pm

Manga chapter 35, Hit uses a form of time-maniuplation known as "timelag." Jiren is able to overcome this, and takes out Hit. He has a shown in both manga and anime to overcome Time. It's clear for both examples, with the anime clearly having him more capable in transcending time. But my point is valid regardless.

And calling it the "garbage" anime, but trying to defend ( I am assuming that's your stance) the manga, especially in cases like this Roshi vs Jiren fight only shows a biased towards allowing crappy, nonsensical writing to be allowed because you prefer the manga over the anime. I have no preference. I think there are things wrong with both, this fight happens to be one of those things in my opinion that is wrong.

And lastly, it largely lowers all the efforts that Goku has achieved, like SSB and training with Whis, that someone like Roshi just magically has a psudeo form of something that Whis has been alluding to this whole time, just so Goku can have an "ahh HAA" moment?
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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Bergamo » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:11 pm

ssj3kakarot wrote:Manga chapter 35, Hit uses a form of time-maniuplation known as "timelag." Jiren is able to overcome this, and takes out Hit. He has a shown in both manga and anime to overcome Time. It's clear for both examples, with the anime clearly having him more capable in transcending time. But my point is valid regardless.

And calling it the "garbage" anime, but trying to defend ( I am assuming that's your stance) the manga, especially in cases like this Roshi vs Jiren fight only shows a biased towards allowing crappy, nonsensical writing to be allowed because you prefer the manga over the anime. I have no preference. I think there are things wrong with both, this fight happens to be one of those things in my opinion that is wrong.

And lastly, it largely lowers all the efforts that Goku has achieved, like SSB and training with Whis, that someone like Roshi just magically has a psudeo form of something that Whis has been alluding to this whole time, just so Goku can have an "ahh HAA" moment?
Hit slowed Jiren down, but Jiren was so fast that he was faster than Hit even in slow motion. That's not time manipulation.
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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by ssj3kakarot » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:22 pm

Bergamo wrote:
ssj3kakarot wrote:Manga chapter 35, Hit uses a form of time-maniuplation known as "timelag." Jiren is able to overcome this, and takes out Hit. He has a shown in both manga and anime to overcome Time. It's clear for both examples, with the anime clearly having him more capable in transcending time. But my point is valid regardless.

And calling it the "garbage" anime, but trying to defend ( I am assuming that's your stance) the manga, especially in cases like this Roshi vs Jiren fight only shows a biased towards allowing crappy, nonsensical writing to be allowed because you prefer the manga over the anime. I have no preference. I think there are things wrong with both, this fight happens to be one of those things in my opinion that is wrong.

And lastly, it largely lowers all the efforts that Goku has achieved, like SSB and training with Whis, that someone like Roshi just magically has a psudeo form of something that Whis has been alluding to this whole time, just so Goku can have an "ahh HAA" moment?
Hit slowed Jiren down, but Jiren was so fast that he was faster than Hit even in slow motion. That's not time manipulation.

Chapter 35:

Beerus: " What's going on?"
Whis: "Another way to manipulate time"

Hit: " Time's being warped for Jiren and him alone, which slows him down"

It is by very definition time manipulation. Facts are right there.

Getting away from the original point. But this is further reason as to why the Jiren vs Roshi is bad. Jiren is faster than time-manipulation, but Roshi gots them mad skills over him.
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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Rakurai » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:26 pm

It's not bad.

Contrived? Probably.

But bad? Not by any means unless you follow power levels strictly.

I love the fact that Roshi got to show his stuff off in a way that suits him. Like Whis says, with age comes wisdom, and he knows what it takes to tap into UI if he were trained by an Angel at the very least.
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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Bergamo » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:28 pm

ssj3kakarot wrote:
Bergamo wrote:
ssj3kakarot wrote:Manga chapter 35, Hit uses a form of time-maniuplation known as "timelag." Jiren is able to overcome this, and takes out Hit. He has a shown in both manga and anime to overcome Time. It's clear for both examples, with the anime clearly having him more capable in transcending time. But my point is valid regardless.

And calling it the "garbage" anime, but trying to defend ( I am assuming that's your stance) the manga, especially in cases like this Roshi vs Jiren fight only shows a biased towards allowing crappy, nonsensical writing to be allowed because you prefer the manga over the anime. I have no preference. I think there are things wrong with both, this fight happens to be one of those things in my opinion that is wrong.

And lastly, it largely lowers all the efforts that Goku has achieved, like SSB and training with Whis, that someone like Roshi just magically has a psudeo form of something that Whis has been alluding to this whole time, just so Goku can have an "ahh HAA" moment?
Hit slowed Jiren down, but Jiren was so fast that he was faster than Hit even in slow motion. That's not time manipulation.

Chapter 35:

Beerus: " What's going on?"
Whis: "Another way to manipulate time"

Hit: " Time's being warped for Jiren and him alone, which slows him down"

It is by very definition time manipulation. Facts are right there.

Getting away from the original point. But this is further reason as to why the Jiren vs Roshi is bad. Jiren is faster than time-manipulation, but Roshi gots them mad skills over him.
Jiren is hopelessly above Roshi. This chapter didn't change that. Is it really so bad if Roshi gets a few dodges in that ultimately change nothing?
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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by ssj3kakarot » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:30 pm

Rakurai wrote:It's not bad.

Contrived? Probably.

But bad? Not by any means unless you follow power levels strictly.

I love the fact that Roshi got to show his stuff off in a way that suits him. Like Whis says, with age comes wisdom, and he knows what it takes to tap into UI if he were trained by an Angel at the very least.

I also like that Roshi got some focus. However, Beerus is far older than Roshi, one might be able to argue that he isn't more wise, mabye not. Furthermore, Beerus has been hanging around Whis for only "Zeno" knows how long, and he still hasn't tapped into it.
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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Bergamo » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:42 pm

ssj3kakarot wrote:
Rakurai wrote:It's not bad.

Contrived? Probably.

But bad? Not by any means unless you follow power levels strictly.

I love the fact that Roshi got to show his stuff off in a way that suits him. Like Whis says, with age comes wisdom, and he knows what it takes to tap into UI if he were trained by an Angel at the very least.

I also like that Roshi got some focus. However, Beerus is far older than Roshi, one might be able to argue that he isn't more wise, mabye not. Furthermore, Beerus has been hanging around Whis for only "Zeno" knows how long, and he still hasn't tapped into it.
Beerus is better than Roshi at UI. Beerus can tap into his instincts for a brief period of time at a godly level. Roshi can tap into his instincts for a brief period of time at a human level.
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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by CriticalThinker » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:43 pm

Don't think I've seen a single person complaining about Jiren and Roshi being even in regards to the fight so no clue were you go that from. From what I've seen most people are taking issue with Roshi being able to dodge so many of Jiren's attacks considering that even a suppressed Jiren should be much faster than Roshi. For me personally I don't think it's bad per say but it does stretch my suspension of disbelief a bit thin.

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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Simere » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:43 pm

ssj3kakarot wrote:
Rakurai wrote:It's not bad.

Contrived? Probably.

But bad? Not by any means unless you follow power levels strictly.

I love the fact that Roshi got to show his stuff off in a way that suits him. Like Whis says, with age comes wisdom, and he knows what it takes to tap into UI if he were trained by an Angel at the very least.
I also like that Roshi got some focus. However, Beerus is far older than Roshi, one might be able to argue that he isn't more wise, mabye not. Furthermore, Beerus has been hanging around Whis for only "Zeno" knows how long, and he still hasn't tapped into it.
Beerus did "tap" into actual UI, which is a far superior thing to what Roshi was doing.

That said, I say "yes" to the question of it being so bad Roshi was able to do what little he did. He looked good at the cost of everyone else looking bad.

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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Rakurai » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:44 pm

ssj3kakarot wrote:
Rakurai wrote:It's not bad.

Contrived? Probably.

But bad? Not by any means unless you follow power levels strictly.

I love the fact that Roshi got to show his stuff off in a way that suits him. Like Whis says, with age comes wisdom, and he knows what it takes to tap into UI if he were trained by an Angel at the very least.

I also like that Roshi got some focus. However, Beerus is far older than Roshi, one might be able to argue that he isn't more wise, mabye not. Furthermore, Beerus has been hanging around Whis for only "Zeno" knows how long, and he still hasn't tapped into it.
Though I will give Roshi the benefit of the doubt, you're right in that regard. However, Beerus is also a lazy cat who spent most of his time sleeping whereas Roshi is someone more serious about martial arts, going so far as to disguise himself to fight his own students so that they could never be satisfied.
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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Bergamo » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:53 pm

CriticalThinker wrote:Don't think I've seen a single person complaining about Jiren and Roshi being even in regards to the fight so no clue were you go that from. From what I've seen most people are taking issue with Roshi being able to dodge so many of Jiren's attacks considering that even a suppressed Jiren should be much faster than Roshi. For me personally I don't think it's bad per say but it does stretch my suspension of disbelief a bit thin.
I've seen people say that Roshi = Jiren or Roshi > Hit in the strength discussion thread.

I agree with the suspension of disbelief. I also had to suspend my disbelief a bit to believe that Gohan could improve at such a fast rate.
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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by ssj3kakarot » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:03 pm

CriticalThinker wrote:Don't think I've seen a single person complaining about Jiren and Roshi being even in regards to the fight so no clue were you go that from. From what I've seen most people are taking issue with Roshi being able to dodge so many of Jiren's attacks considering that even a suppressed Jiren should be much faster than Roshi. For me personally I don't think it's bad per say but it does stretch my suspension of disbelief a bit thin.
Not sure if this was directed at me, however.

I never suggested that they were even, in fact, I actually agree with you. My problem is that Roshi was able dodge any of Jirens attack. That's all. Him getting pseudo UI is also pretty lame.
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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Bergamo » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:46 pm

ssj3kakarot wrote:
CriticalThinker wrote:Don't think I've seen a single person complaining about Jiren and Roshi being even in regards to the fight so no clue were you go that from. From what I've seen most people are taking issue with Roshi being able to dodge so many of Jiren's attacks considering that even a suppressed Jiren should be much faster than Roshi. For me personally I don't think it's bad per say but it does stretch my suspension of disbelief a bit thin.
Not sure if this was directed at me, however.

I never suggested that they were even, in fact, I actually agree with you. My problem is that Roshi was able dodge any of Jirens attack. That's all. Him getting pseudo UI is also pretty lame.
People aren't mad that a weak character inexplicably defeated a strong character.

People aren't mad that a weak character inexplicably damaged a strong character.

People are mad that a weak character dodged a few attacks before being eliminated by being lightly karate chopped. This is power level mania.
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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Marlowe89 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:55 pm

Bergamo wrote: People are mad that a weak character dodged a few attacks before being eliminated by being lightly karate chopped. This is power level mania.
You forgot to mention that said weak character used a pseudo version of a technique that circumvents conscious reaction times, so the gap in speed shouldn't even really be an issue here.

Roshi did nothing wrong.

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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by Bergamo » Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:00 am

Marlowe89 wrote:
Bergamo wrote: People are mad that a weak character dodged a few attacks before being eliminated by being lightly karate chopped. This is power level mania.
You forgot to mention that said weak character used a pseudo version of a technique that circumvents conscious reaction times, so the gap in speed shouldn't even really be an issue here.

Roshi did nothing wrong.
I like to think Roshi UI is like a regular Kiai and actual Ultra Instinct is like the DBZ Kiais that send people through mountains. They are the same techniques, but one is kind of feasible and the other is a super fantasy technique.
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Re: Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

Post by CriticalThinker » Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:15 am

Bergamo wrote: I've seen people say that Roshi = Jiren or Roshi > Hit in the strength discussion thread.

I agree with the suspension of disbelief. I also had to suspend my disbelief a bit to believe that Gohan could improve at such a fast rate.
Oh the strength thread, don't really go to that thread much but that's pretty dumb if people actually think that. And in regards to Gohan I wasn't that bothered with the powerscaling of the fight more so it being off screened.
ssj3kakarot wrote: Not sure if this was directed at me, however.

I never suggested that they were even, in fact, I actually agree with you. My problem is that Roshi was able dodge any of Jirens attack. That's all. Him getting pseudo UI is also pretty lame.
Wasn't directed at you.

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